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In the Name of God بسم الله
khamosh21

Is this a logical fallacy within religion?

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17 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Ok, this one, if God gives you knowledge of everyone of your affairs, there is no choice to make brother. For example: - You have knowledge of fire that it hurts, will you put hand in it ?

Shaitan had all the knowdledge, yet he still choose fire... your argument is illogical and invalid In my humble opinion in many instances... there is no wisdom or justification to keep the unseen from us... im sure the Prophet and Imams were asked this, anyone know what they said

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Just now, khamosh21 said:

thanks for your replies brother, unfortunately it doesnt help resolve my issues and problems..  all the best.

The world can only be the way God wants it to be at any given time, if it was any other way, then God would no longer be God. So all the crap is how God wants it to be apparently...

You are welcome, 

I do not deny that God does what he wants, but if determined that creation may have two ways whether to go into heaven and hell by their choice, God is not to be blamed for it, he provides everything such as guidance and amenities and if someone puts his own wrongdoing upon Allah (عزّ وجلّ), then he must know that he choose it and not God for HIm.

I am sure that if you try you will get answers, Insha-Allah, with best wishes.

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20 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Bear with me please...

Suppose there is a community of 1 person. This person is not a believer in God as he really knows nothing of the such. 

God wishes that this person comes to know Him. God knows exactly what is needed for this person (with his free will) to convince him of His existence, just as He knows what will not convince him and will take him down the road to damnation and hell (again, of the person's free will).

Now God decides that it is time to let this 1 person community know about Him. He sends a Prophet with proofs etc. now this is where I get stuck...

scenario 1: God does what is necessary, person accepts the Prophet, believes, as God wishes. Awesome.

scenario 2: person does not accept the Prophet... now logically tell me, did God not forsee this scenario? why did he not do what was necessary to convince this person (isnt that what He wants?!)... and if He did do what was necessary for the person to be convinced, then why did the person not accept? ... logical fallacy? or do we go to scenario 3...

s3. God does not do what was necessary, the person does not believe... which I guess is awesome as well as God is doing what He intends?

my question looked in another way is, how do we hold a human responsible for rejecting God considering that the basis for rejection is a by product of God's direct actions/creations and is based on the experience that God has given him thus far?

Interesting questions,
This is the difference between us and the Prophets, they know the answers to  these questions and we don't. 
Prophets, Imams and other enlightened people they know the purpose of our creation and the meaning of guidance but we don't.
The only way to know the answers of these questions is to submit your Self to Allah completely, live your life as per Qur'an and try to reach the benchmark set by Ahl-e-Bayt.

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1 minute ago, khamosh21 said:

Shaitan had all the knowdledge, yet he still choose fire... your argument is illogical and invalid In my humble opinion in many instances... there is no wisdom or justification to keep the unseen from us... im sure the Prophet and Imams were asked this, anyone know what they said

That was mistake of Shaitan, that is why he got punishment. All knowledgeable is God. If he would have repented, he would have got relief, and his idiocy was proved when he was kicked from heaven. I do not think you are right about him. God wanted to eliminate his arrogance by humility but he preferred arrogance so did not know humility, you are wrong. 

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22 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Shaitan had all the knowdledge, yet he still choose fire... your argument is illogical and invalid In my humble opinion in many instances... there is no wisdom or justification to keep the unseen from us... im sure the Prophet and Imams were asked this, anyone know what they said

second part, if you knew about death, I think you would have tried to make most out of worship and would not have come here to benefit us with your thoughts at least, this is quite a reasonable justification for me at least. 

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32 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Shaitan had all the knowdledge, yet he still choose fire... your argument is illogical and invalid In my humble opinion in many instances... there is no wisdom or justification to keep the unseen from us... im sure the Prophet and Imams were asked this, anyone know what they said

one point lastly, I did not say that you would not choose fire, if you really wanted it.  I asked will you choose fire if you knew it ? You said you would not, but if you would. God has not made promise to keep you infallible. 

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9 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I agree with your first paragraph. However it was an injustice to create such vile creatures, or to allow such creatures to turn so vile, whichever way you look at it, is not evidence of a perfect creator.

 

How do you define a "perfect creator"?

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1 hour ago, Flying_Eagle said:

That was mistake of Shaitan, that is why he got punishment. All knowledgeable is God. If he would have repented, he would have got relief, and his idiocy was proved when he was kicked from heaven. I do not think you are right about him. God wanted to eliminate his arrogance by humility but he preferred arrogance so did not know humility, you are wrong. 

I think you have gotten off topic. my argument is, if we are all equipped with some knowledge of the unseen and do not have to accept the word of others for it, we are all better off, the test or our potential is not realized just by seeing the unseen, we would still need to realize our potential.

free will in shaitan's case and his choice to choose eternal damnation for whatever reasons he has is in my view is completely fair... from his side as well as Allah's... shaitan made a decision very well knowing the reality and outcome behind it...thats what I mean. you claimed it would no longer be a choice if we knew the unseen?

your claim can also be disproven by the alleged experiences of mystics, Sufis, arifs, gurus etc... apparently God does reward some people that purify themselves by showing them the unseen (again claims made of unseen by men while offering no evidence)... so what, these mystics are no longer making choices? 

so again I ask if God does show the unseen to some, what benefit does it serve to keep it from the rest other than being a deterrent, or a way for authorities to manipulate us?

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16 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

How do you define a "perfect creator"?

that which He creates is also Perfect... also a Creator who isn't ok with part of His own creation being torturted or being in pain for even a second, much less eternity (no matter what the reasons behind it).

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28 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

How do you define a "perfect creator"?

This is a very good question, I quite like it.

I would also add a Creator that communicates and speaks to His creation. We ridicule idol worshippers saying that their gods can't listen or respond to them... when was the last time Allah spoke to you I ask? on what grounds do I criticize the idol worshipper when I am praying to an idol created by my imagination (the idol is made of matter, so only matter separates my God and the idol worshipper's)... my imaginary Allah also does not listen or respond? I have no evidence to contradict this...

The Qur'an states, they (idols) offer them no profit or harm... I do not have any evidence that contradicts this very statement when in comes to praying to God.

Edited by khamosh21

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4 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Interesting questions,

Q:1 : - It is straight forward no need to answer.

Q:2: - God gave him choice to choose heaven or hell, it does not matter to God what he answers because what he chooses would be beneficial or harmful for him and not to God. However, sending guidance is helping and God does not leave anyone without it and if someone does not listen to what Prophet says, it is really his choice. There can be various reasons for God not helping him more:

        a) God has already fixed that he has given him intelligence and guidance, it, therefore, gives him control on himself to choose what he likes.

        b) God would not interfere in his choices and force him to accept what God likes because if God does that then what is point of giving them authority to choose between good and                  bad and Rewards and Punishments. 

       c) God may not help him to choose for Him because he would want to show to his creation what is result of those who chooses other than Him.

Q:3: - God did the necessary part for satisfying both physical and spiritual needs of his creation, for physical he provides food and for spiritual, he provides guidance through Prophets.

Human is held responsible because he is granted the quality of choice between good and bad. He is responsible because he has authority to choose good for him and if he chooses bad for him, he is to get punishment, God does not exercises his choices. So for what he does, he is responsible not God. Perhaps you may say that God created him, creating something does not define that inventor did wrong, it depends upon user such as Knife is used for both cutting vegetables and slitting a throat, so the blacksmith will not be questioned abouts its use but the one who uses it.      

The answer to these questions are not as easy as you think. In my opinion the one who says I know the answer to these question knows nothing and the one who knows become silent.

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I feel like the answer to my logical fallacy, my OP, seems to be "free will"... this does not begin to even scratch the surface of the topic...

When God is making the decision to send a Prophet to our 1 disbeliever, free will and every action this person will take is already calculated and seen for... which means either God's calculations are exactly right if we take scenario 1, or they are wrong in scenario 2 and we are back to en error where you can't divide by zero...

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23 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Bear with me please...

Suppose there is a community of 1 person. This person is not a believer in God as he really knows nothing of the such. 

God wishes that this person comes to know Him. God knows exactly what is needed for this person (with his free will) to convince him of His existence, just as He knows what will not convince him and will take him down the road to damnation and hell (again, of the person's free will).

Now God decides that it is time to let this 1 person community know about Him. He sends a Prophet with proofs etc. now this is where I get stuck...

scenario 1: God does what is necessary, person accepts the Prophet, believes, as God wishes. Awesome.

scenario 2: person does not accept the Prophet... now logically tell me, did God not forsee this scenario? why did he not do what was necessary to convince this person (isnt that what He wants?!)... and if He did do what was necessary for the person to be convinced, then why did the person not accept? ... logical fallacy? or do we go to scenario 3...

s3. God does not do what was necessary, the person does not believe... which I guess is awesome as well as God is doing what He intends?

my question looked in another way is, how do we hold a human responsible for rejecting God considering that the basis for rejection is a by product of God's direct actions/creations and is based on the experience that God has given him thus far?

Rejecting God or not rejecting Him is a false dichotomy if we understand what is meant by God.  is God something to be either rejected or accepted?  Something which is innate cannot be accepted or rejected.  It simply needs to be discovered or seen for what it truly is.  God is simply another name for reality.  Do people ever accept or reject reality?  So what is religion for?  It isn;t about whether or not there is reaity, but rather it is all about what this reality is.

What this reality is (in other words, trying to see reality for what it is), is really what life's journey is all about.  Some people see it more clearly than others, and yet others are confused, they mistake this reality for something else (this, in religious terminology is called "shirk").  Shirk is to associate or to confuse reality for something that is not real. 

Again, that there is reality (I.e. God) is blatantly evident.   But what this reality (God) is, is often times con-fused with that which isn't real (namely, a God).  

Let me know what you think please.

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22 minutes ago, Shams of tabriz said:

The answer to these questions are not as easy as you think. In my opinion the one who says I know the answer to these question knows nothing and the one who knows become silent.

thank you for your mysterious and mystical reply /sarcasm

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