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In the Name of God بسم الله
khamosh21

Is this a logical fallacy within religion?

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On 6/23/2019 at 9:37 PM, khamosh21 said:

the analogy of procreation is quite weak, you are relying on probability whereas I am arguing from certainty.

The parents are certain that the child will commit evil unless the child dies young.  It would be very odd to say that the parents are only justified to procreate because their child might die young!

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If you 100 percent knew your son is going to hell, would you procreate?

if you knew you son is the next saddam or hitler, would you still procreate?

 

A better question is if I knew my son is going to hell, would it be morally permissible to procreate?

The answer is, I think, it depends.  If I knew that my son's existence will lead to greater good, perhaps because he will have pious offspring, or perhaps because he will inspire people directly or indirectly to be good and so increase the overall value of the world, then it would be morally permissible to procreate.  Personally I don’t think I would have it in me to procreate because I would find it too upsetting.  But what I would do and what is morally right to do are not the same thing.

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On 6/24/2019 at 12:57 PM, khamosh21 said:

It doesnt really expain the purpose of life...

Herein I have found purpose for my life, and peace, and hope...

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (words of Jesus) - Matthew 11:28

"Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." (words of Jesus) - John 15:13

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." (words of Jesus) - John 3:16

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17 hours ago, .InshAllah. said:

The parents are certain that the child will commit evil unless the child dies young.  It would be very odd to say that the parents are only justified to procreate because their child might die young!

A better question is if I knew my son is going to hell, would it be morally permissible to procreate?

The answer is, I think, it depends.  If I knew that my son's existence will lead to greater good, perhaps because he will have pious offspring, or perhaps because he will inspire people directly or indirectly to be good and so increase the overall value of the world, then it would be morally permissible to procreate.  Personally I don’t think I would have it in me to procreate because I would find it too upsetting.  But what I would do and what is morally right to do are not the same thing.

fair enough if that's how you see it, I just can't continue arguing over it.

even if free will and the problem.of evil is resolved, I still don't understand why things need to be kept hidden and "unseen"... it goes against logic to give less information or knowdledge, if you want people to succeed.

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On 6/24/2019 at 8:22 PM, khamosh21 said:

hope you realize they are teaching a completely different interpretation of these things in Islamic seminaries...

its very difficult to reach a conclusion on which interpretation is correct, its not that straightforward.

Who are "they" ?

Use your own intelligence.

From birth to our death we are on a journey called life. 
The journey of life is fruitful when it becomes spiritual journey.
The spiritual journey is a movement away from over-identification with the body and mind to the rediscovery of our true identity. The movement  is dis- identification with the body and mind. Since identification is simply a movement of thought, dis-identification is simply a movement away from thought. The ego identification that we experience most of the time is the result of repeated thoughts about "I", "me" and "mine".
That is all there is to it, but while we are thinking these thoughts the sense of self is contained in them. And since most of our self-referencing thoughts are about our body, our thoughts, our feelings, and our desires, the sense of self is usually contained in the body and mind. Dis-identification from the thought form of the ego can occur whenever there is a deep questioning of the assumption in most of our thoughts that we are this body and this mind.

It can be a shock to see how completely we assume that I am this body and I am this mind, and an even bigger shock and relief to discover that it is just a thought, and it is not true. The identification is really just a thought. There is no actual equivalence between you and your body or your mind. You are that which experiences the body and the mind, but you are not contained in them.
The moment you realize you experience heaven or oneness with Allah.
All the experience other than this is Hell or suffering.
 

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13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. - Matthew 7:13-14

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On 6/24/2019 at 6:53 PM, khamosh21 said:

the wisdom we use to justify suffering, e.g. creates patience, trials, we lack knowledge so don’t see the benefit etc... I find it's way too much unhealthy speculation, would you agree?

did you read any of the stuff about seeing a miracle I wrote about? thoughts? I feel its unfair to talk so much about miracles and the spiritual abilities of urafa without showing it... one reason people narrate these events I think is to make it credible and authentic, but arent willing to provide evidence when asked, then its all, oh he has to keep it a secret... I think our urafa are knowledgeable, and near perfect people, but highly doubt any capabilities like teleportation etc, makes me really mistrust our scholars...

 

yes brother I agree to an extent some of our scholars can get carried away, after all they are human and some very old lol.

The examples you said, yes these things do create patience and trials but they not because we do not understand..

There's a hadith in Nahjul Balagha (I think!) of 'Ali saying don't be like the dogs who require a beating to learn their lessons... this is sort of the way to look at it, we could have things to easy, but humanity chooses the hard way (doing haram etc) thus we pay the price, which is in essense a warning sign that we are straying from the path. Imagine if we were not aware of suffering when it was happening - then what?

This suffering is a result of our misdeeds or others that affect us which becomes a trial. All of us know suffering is bad intellectually without actually going through it, but still some of us choose. Hence the Arabic word for dhulm is close to that of darkness. Faith is meant to be a shining light to take us to the right path. Having faith and practising it with proper understanding is the first step away from suffering. Yes life and death will happen in this life and nothing is forever, but it doesn't mean it has to be as difficult as we have made it...

Yes, bad things happen our history is full of it, look at the Prophets (عليه السلام) and 12 Imams, but I do not see them for one moment attributing the injustice directly to God. Look at the trial of Husayn, he was betrayed by the people of Kufa and the Umayyads, did he attribute it to God or them, despite God being the ultimate sovereign.

Edited by ali47

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Guest itsOBvious
On 6/18/2019 at 3:53 PM, khamosh21 said:

you say that as free will is some kind of independent super power from God. What is free will? what is choice? are free will and choices are only a result of our experiences, our experiences are generated by Allah. 

Also why did God give us free will if leads to our destruction? Also this free will is being forced and blackmailed into submission with threats of pain and hell... this does not sound Eternal, Divine, or spiritual... 

even free will is not free, think about that, free will choices are also influenced by temperaments, and thats what makes this difference

in free will there is three powers acting, reason, nafs, heart

so basically before this person even made his choice on some question, the state of these three determined the answer, God didnt need to wait for an answer to hear the answer, God seen the state of these three and knew exactly what was going to follow

the answer was for the person for judgement day

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On 6/24/2019 at 11:27 PM, khamosh21 said:

ive read the Qur'an since childhood, unfortunately it makes less sense now then before... I get easily bored by repetitious verses about heaven, hell, internal historical and personal problems the Prophet had... really disklike any verse about punishment, things I have no clue are real or not...

Qur'an is the highest knowledge possible to the man, the philosophy of Qur'an does not appeal to those without the courage and desire to ferret out the Truth for themselves. But those minds long accustomed to enquiry and Truth-seeking will experience a thrilling surge of joy upon discovering the philosophy of Qur'an. For it provides all the missing pieces to the puzzle of life and makes the total picture puzzle at last intelligible and perfectly clear. What a moment it is for the long searching intellect when it finally comes across the truths expressed in Qur'an! What excitement it feels on having all its doubts dispelled, like cobwebs swept from the newly lighted corner of a room. How happy it feels on looking out upon a world perceived as for the first time bathed in clarity and light!
Without intellect, without a preconceived identity or even existence; unknowing, unseeing, guided only by a faith in Truth and the longing of a pure heart, we may enter into the silence of that all-knowing Light. There, no questions rise to separate the knower from the known. There, the Knower is alone— with a Knowledge beyond knowledge, won only by the brave, who soar on wings of love, beyond the knowing mind. 

 

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