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In the Name of God بسم الله
khamosh21

Is this a logical fallacy within religion?

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3 minutes ago, Quisant said:

 

Free will is a very broad term and there are many debates on the matter.

In general terms, we have very little free will; we do not choose our feelings, desires, tastes, genes, environments, parents, family and relatives, tribe/clan, native language, upbringing, and son and so forth; everything has already been decided for us.

We each have no knowledge of what we are about to think next, we are not the author of our own thoughts. That is, we don't pick our next thought. 

Can you stop yourself thinking, can you choose which thoughts to summon for analysis or decide what to think?

 

 

you can be in the present moment and and sort of escape thinking... you can recede into the background and thoughts can slow down... you can transcend your thoughts (people do it with drugs) some do it with meditation... it can be done.

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6 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

hmm... not according to Chittick and Nasr, wasn't his light the first created and, he was chosen for it etc ..

I don't think I understand what you mean...

What I know is that the Islamic tradition it is pretty clear that the Prophet (S) is the first created light (He was indeed Chosen for it).  Did the Prophet (S) have to go on a path to earn the title of "chosen"?  No, he was indeed chosen from pre-eternity.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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11 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

hmm... not according to Chittick and Nasr, wasn't his light the first created and, he was chosen for it etc ..

I don't think I understand what you mean...

It is presumptuous to imagine that you are a chosen one and that one day you will be realized "just like that" without having to seek the sacred.  Even among those who seek, God still has to choose them.  

Mathew 22:14  "Many are called, but few are chosen."

Edited by eThErEaL

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Just now, eThErEaL said:

It is presumptuous to imagine that you are a chosen one and that one day you will be realized "just like that" without having to seek the sacred.

I am not assuming that at all, thats a miscommunication on my part or misunderstanding on yours... I was just asking about it...

I agree with you, ive come the conclusion I was too caught up thinking about things... trying to let go

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Just now, khamosh21 said:

I am not assuming that at all, thats a miscommunication on my part or misunderstanding on yours... I was just asking about it...

I agree with you, ive come the conclusion I was too caught up thinking about things... trying to let go

it is a miscommunicatin on my part.  I am not assuming this about you.  the "you" is anyone.  

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17 minutes ago, Quisant said:

 

Free will is a very broad term and there are many debates on the matter.

In general terms, we have very little free will; we do not choose our feelings, desires, tastes, genes, environments, parents, family and relatives, tribe/clan, native language, upbringing, and son and so forth; everything has already been decided for us.

We each have no knowledge of what we are about to think next, we are not the author of our own thoughts. That is, we don't pick our next thought. 

Can you stop yourself thinking, can you choose which thoughts to summon for analysis or decide what to think?

The philosopher Schopenhauer wrote:
Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills. 
He makes a distinction between freedom of acting (which he endorses) and freedom of willing (which he refutes). 

Our 'willing' is slave to desires over which we have little control; we cannot will what we will. Yes, you are free to do whatever you desire. But you are not free to choose your desires. They may come from deep past and are probably present in our genes from distant generations.

In essence, man's desires are not predicated on careful calculation; rather, they are innate. The "heart of man" is autonomous and fickle. Our urges are genetically encoded, rooted in the subconscious and not subject to the whims (desires) of the conscious mind. 
  

The  'free will' often discussed with regards to religion, is, in my opinion, very problematic.

But if you propose an Omniscient creator who knows your present and your future even before your own existence began..then we have no free will.
God's act of creation essentially "predetermines" one's actions, stripping one of free will.

To put it concisely:  If everything that exists has a ‘reason’ for its existence and the source of that reason is ‘random chance’ then you do have some free will.
But if the source of that ‘reason’ is God then you have no free will.

Because God is not a mere Observer; God is the Cause of everything, the cause of all causes.

If there are specific reasons for everything you say and do, then God knows those reasons. And from the beginning of time, God knew those reasons and what you would say and do. You couldn't do anything else. (or God would be wrong)
If God didn't know the reasons (or if there are no specific reasons for your behaviour) then ultimately your choices and behaviour are a mystery even to God.

Omar Khayyam puts it very neatly: 

"I came not hither of my own free will, 
And go against my wish, a puppet still; 

When Allah mixed my clay He knew full well 
My future acts, and could each one foretell; 

Without His will no act of mine was wrought; 
Is it then just to punish me in hell?" 

 

(Apologies for the long read, afternoon at home nursing a cold. )

ws.

*

 

Get well soon.

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13 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

you can be in the present moment and and sort of escape thinking... you can recede into the background and thoughts can slow down... you can transcend your thoughts (people do it with drugs) some do it with meditation... it can be done.

 

I did say 'in general terms'...   

That's true, it can be very nearly done but it takes a lot of training.I certainly have difficulties with achieving that because I lack the will to concentrate.  :)

 

 

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On 6/22/2019 at 11:15 AM, khamosh21 said:

thanks for your answer... very deep!

question, how does something that is unchanging make decisions? I can never understand this, because making a decision or a choice requires a change in state... so how does Allah get away with it? :)

The only thing that really is is that one Being; He is both the unchanging Absolute, the Unity, and the world-appearance as well. He is both creator and creation. 
It is, of course, important to experience this truth; but it’s perhaps just as important to understand it and to make this knowledge a part of one’s being. This is not just philosophy or theorizing. It is very important to fully comprehend this; otherwise, who knows what you might imagine yourself to be? Some weak,insignificant creature, perhaps!
Now, this is a very useful concept for understanding that one’s eternal Self remains constant, inactive, and unchanged, even while one’s body and mind engages in actions.

La ilaha illalah.
 

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27 minutes ago, Shams of tabriz said:

The only thing that really is is that one Being; He is both the unchanging Absolute, the Unity, and the world-appearance as well. He is both creator and creation. 
It is, of course, important to experience this truth; but it’s perhaps just as important to understand it and to make this knowledge a part of one’s being. This is not just philosophy or theorizing. It is very important to fully comprehend this; otherwise, who knows what you might imagine yourself to be? Some weak,insignificant creature, perhaps!
Now, this is a very useful concept for understanding that one’s eternal Self remains constant, inactive, and unchanged, even while one’s body and mind engages in actions.

La ilaha illalah.
 

I realized I don’t have any problem in accepting a Creator, or even suffering for that matter...  I just can't make sense of the Islamic Allah, theology, speculation, lack of evidence,  and find it quite confusing what He wants...

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On 6/23/2019 at 1:21 PM, khamosh21 said:

Please read up Shia theology and/or prove this from valid sources.

It can be argued that it became exaggerated as time went on.. There is a good paper written on this called Crisis and Consolidation in the Formative Period of Shi'Ite Islam: Abu Ja'Far Ibn Qiba Al-Razi and His Contribution to Imamite Shi'Ite Thought

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On 6/22/2019 at 8:17 PM, khamosh21 said:

the whole point is like the arms seller KNOWS what wil happen, thus we hold them partially responsible for the final crime... Allah KNOWS the outcome, but for some reason we remove any responsibility from Him?

if you open an Aqaid book this is the argument between Takweeni vs Tashri, and Allah Himself accepts that He creates evil etc... 

The only argument we are left with is Allah left Saddam alive to torture millions due to Allah's wisdom... Allah allows satan to misguide us due to wisdom. Khizr killed a child due to wisdom..

This elusive wisdom... the unseen...lack of evidence etc etc... few too many problems for my dumb self to understand...

But does Allah make you do it? His knowledge does not contradict our choice! I tried explaining this to you last time - you have to remember Allah's knowledge is not like ours, he knows the choices before they happen unlike us, if he didn't, he wouldn't be an all-knowing God right?

If you attribute injustice to Allah then you have misunderstood Allah.. I do understand we live in a grim reality at times but it's only because we've made it so. At least Islam is honest enough to make human beings responsible instead of putting the blame at Creator's door... or are we? :D

Remember, la jabr la tafwid amr bayn al-amrayn! (No compulsion, no absolute free-will, it is a matter between the two).

Theologians fought long and hard on the issue but the Shi'a were lucky to have the guidance of the Imams, whether you take their guidance on this issue is again your choice, there is no compulsion (sorry for the awful pun in advance).

Edited by ali47

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5 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I disagree with your interpretation.  There is a freewill but the will is not absolute, it always depends on God.

I am not trying to convince you neither I am trying to convince people who are participating in this discussion. I am  rather seeking to convince myself; to convince my hearers is a secondary matter with me. And do but see how much I gain by the discussion.:)

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58 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I just can't make sense of the Islamic Allah, theology, speculation, lack of evidence,  and find it quite confusing what He wants...

Read Qur'an and try to understand it yourself without any outside influence like hadith, tafser  etc you will know what Islamic Allah wants. It is written in one ancient scripture that to attain knowledge you have to take control of your Nafs and control your mind. It is then only you will become worthy of knowledge.

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41 minutes ago, ali47 said:

But does Allah make you do it? His knowledge does not contradict our choice! I tried explaining this to you last time - you have to remember Allah's knowledge is not like ours, he knows the choices before they happen unlike us, if he didn't, he wouldn't be an all-knowing God right?

If you attribute injustice to Allah then you have misunderstood Allah.. I do understand we live in a grim reality at times but it's only because we've made it so. At least Islam is honest enough to make human beings responsible instead of putting the blame at Creator's door... or are we? :D

Remember, la jabr la tafwid amr bayn al-amrayn! (No compulsion, no absolute free-will, it is a matter between the two).

Theologians fought long and hard on the issue but the Shi'a were lucky to have the guidance of the Imams, whether you take their guidance on this issue is again your choice, there is no compulsion (sorry for the awful pun in advance).

the wisdom we use to justify suffering, e.g. creates patience, trials, we lack knowledge so don’t see the benefit etc... I find it's way too much unhealthy speculation, would you agree?

did you read any of the stuff about seeing a miracle I wrote about? thoughts? I feel its unfair to talk so much about miracles and the spiritual abilities of urafa without showing it... one reason people narrate these events I think is to make it credible and authentic, but arent willing to provide evidence when asked, then its all, oh he has to keep it a secret... I think our urafa are knowledgeable, and near perfect people, but highly doubt any capabilities like teleportation etc, makes me really mistrust our scholars...

 

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23 minutes ago, Shams of tabriz said:

Read Qur'an and try to understand it yourself without any outside influence like hadith, tafser  etc you will know what Islamic Allah wants. It is written in one ancient scripture that to attain knowledge you have to take control of your Nafs and control your mind. It is then only you will become worthy of knowledge.

ive read the Qur'an since childhood, unfortunately it makes less sense now then before... I get easily bored by repetitious verses about heaven, hell, internal historical and personal problems the Prophet had... really disklike any verse about punishment, things I have no clue are real or not...

all the descriptions  of hell and heaven... what do I do with it? imagine and feel happy or scared?

all these stories about towns being destroyed... just not interesting after the 100th read...

it doesnt really expain the purpose of life...

in general I feel like my imagination is at work and I don’t want to worship my imagination

Edited by khamosh21

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