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In the Name of God بسم الله
khamosh21

Is this a logical fallacy within religion?

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Bear with me please...

Suppose there is a community of 1 person. This person is not a believer in God as he really knows nothing of the such. 

God wishes that this person comes to know Him. God knows exactly what is needed for this person (with his free will) to convince him of His existence, just as He knows what will not convince him and will take him down the road to damnation and hell (again, of the person's free will).

Now God decides that it is time to let this 1 person community know about Him. He sends a Prophet with proofs etc. now this is where I get stuck...

scenario 1: God does what is necessary, person accepts the Prophet, believes, as God wishes. Awesome.

scenario 2: person does not accept the Prophet... now logically tell me, did God not forsee this scenario? why did he not do what was necessary to convince this person (isnt that what He wants?!)... and if He did do what was necessary for the person to be convinced, then why did the person not accept? ... logical fallacy? or do we go to scenario 3...

s3. God does not do what was necessary, the person does not believe... which I guess is awesome as well as God is doing what He intends?

my question looked in another way is, how do we hold a human responsible for rejecting God considering that the basis for rejection is a by product of God's direct actions/creations and is based on the experience that God has given him thus far?

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23 hours ago, Aragaia said:

Free will.
God makes clear. Some people don't like to see clear.

you say that as free will is some kind of independent super power from God. What is free will? what is choice? are free will and choices are only a result of our experiences, our experiences are generated by Allah. 

Also why did God give us free will if leads to our destruction? Also this free will is being forced and blackmailed into submission with threats of pain and hell... this does not sound Eternal, Divine, or spiritual... 

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14 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

you say that as free will is some kind of independent super power from God. What is free will? what is choice? are free will and choices are only a result of our experiences, our experiences are generated by Allah. 

If our experiences fully determine our choices then free will is an illusion and there is no such thing as moral responsibility or obligation.  Then it would be wrong to blame Saddam, Hitler etc for what they did!  So our experiences don't fully determine our choices.

14 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Also why did God give us free will if leads to our destruction? Also this free will is being forced and blackmailed into submission with threats of pain and hell... this does not sound Eternal, Divine, or spiritual

 He gave us free will because its valuable- it means that we aren't robots.  And it gives us the opportunity to freely choose good.  A necessary side effect of this is that some people freely choose evil, but thats just what happens if there is true free will.  God shouldn't be blackmailed into not creating free creatures just because some would choose evil.

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14 hours ago, .InshAllah. said:

If our experiences fully determine our choices then free will is an illusion and there is no such thing as moral responsibility or obligation.  Then it would be wrong to blame Saddam, Hitler etc for what they did!  So our experiences don't fully determine our choices.

 He gave us free will because its valuable- it means that we aren't robots.  And it gives us the opportunity to freely choose good.  A necessary side effect of this is that some people freely choose evil, but thats just what happens if there is true free will.  God shouldn't be blackmailed into not creating free creatures just because some would choose evil.

I agree with your first paragraph. However it was an injustice to create such vile creatures, or to allow such creatures to turn so vile, whichever way you look at it, is not evidence of a perfect creator.

Your 2nd paragraph...

True free will in this sense would only be fair if we also had full and complete knowledge, and that includes hard evidence for the unseen, or the some of the same knowledge, not spoken knowledge, but that of the unseen that the Prophets had.

Why? Take our material life as an example. My ability as a child or teenager to SEE successful adults helps me in making better decisions. By seeing adults, doesn't mean my life is no longer challenging or that I don't have to do anything. I still need to study, work hard, make right choices BECOME that successful person applying my free will... I could choose to not do that and be loser, but this would be with full knowledge as well. Knowing the harm or benefit of something doesn't necessarily mean we will act accordingly (eg. cigarettes and drugs).

In religion, we don't actually see heaven or hell, or even the unseen effects of our good and bad actions... we don't see the successful adults like in material life. had I seen the reality of sins, and the benefits of good actions, that would be true free will... I would then be able to build myself into a human being, do the tazkiya and see my own progress happening... there would be no doubt... and we would actually create a world that Allah supposedly also wants. Not knowing I.e having to believe, not actually know, the unseen, is a hindrance not help from God.

Claiming heaven and hell exist without any proof of their existence is blackmail.

Or my brother maybe you can explain the wisdom behind keeping certain knowledge (unseen) hidden from us, while allowing others from birth to have it?

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Guest de trout

God takes you exactly where you want to go. If you want to get closer to him then he will guide you towards him, if you want to be a kaffir then he'll guide you away. You will always have the choice.

11 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I agree with your first paragraph. However it was an injustice to create such vile creatures, or to allow such creatures to turn so vile, whichever way you look at it, is not evidence of a perfect creator.

Any injustice comes from the free will of his creation. People love to blame God for all the atrocities of the world, but I don't see them risking their lives to fight characters like hitler. We could easily end world hunger, America alone could fund everything and it wouldn't put a dent in their piggy bank, but they don't. Or a better choice of word would be they won't. Why are third world countries even in the state that they are? Because God is unfair? Or because the british empire colonized them and sucked them dry like a leech? Or because America drags countries into wars to plunder their oil? God gave us freewill, He gave us a plane to exercise it in, and after gloriously screwing it up we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

Who said there's no evidence of Hell? You think everyone here prays 5 times a day on a gamble? There are books dedicated to proving the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) really was who he said he was, and if that is true, then ipso facto, there is a Hell. Look at his predictions that at his time were seemingly completely random and hurt his case from how crazy they sounded. Just imagine what the people around him thought when he said people will talk to objects and dig holes through mountains.

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23 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Bear with me please...

Suppose there is a community of 1 person. This person is not a believer in God as he really knows nothing of the such. 

God wishes that this person comes to know Him. God knows exactly what is needed for this person (with his free will) to convince him of His existence, just as He knows what will not convince him and will take him down the road to damnation and hell (again, of the person's free will).

Now God decides that it is time to let this 1 person community know about Him. He sends a Prophet with proofs etc. now this is where I get stuck...

scenario 1: God does what is necessary, person accepts the Prophet, believes, as God wishes. Awesome.

scenario 2: person does not accept the Prophet... now logically tell me, did God not forsee this scenario? why did he not do what was necessary to convince this person (isnt that what He wants?!)... and if He did do what was necessary for the person to be convinced, then why did the person not accept? ... logical fallacy? or do we go to scenario 3...

s3. God does not do what was necessary, the person does not believe... which I guess is awesome as well as God is doing what He intends?

my question looked in another way is, how do we hold a human responsible for rejecting God considering that the basis for rejection is a by product of God's direct actions/creations and is based on the experience that God has given him thus far?

Interesting questions,

Q:1 : - It is straight forward no need to answer.

Q:2: - God gave him choice to choose heaven or hell, it does not matter to God what he answers because what he chooses would be beneficial or harmful for him and not to God. However, sending guidance is helping and God does not leave anyone without it and if someone does not listen to what Prophet says, it is really his choice. There can be various reasons for God not helping him more:

        a) God has already fixed that he has given him intelligence and guidance, it, therefore, gives him control on himself to choose what he likes.

        b) God would not interfere in his choices and force him to accept what God likes because if God does that then what is point of giving them authority to choose between good and                  bad and Rewards and Punishments. 

       c) God may not help him to choose for Him because he would want to show to his creation what is result of those who chooses other than Him.

Q:3: - God did the necessary part for satisfying both physical and spiritual needs of his creation, for physical he provides food and for spiritual, he provides guidance through Prophets.

Human is held responsible because he is granted the quality of choice between good and bad. He is responsible because he has authority to choose good for him and if he chooses bad for him, he is to get punishment, God does not exercises his choices. So for what he does, he is responsible not God. Perhaps you may say that God created him, creating something does not define that inventor did wrong, it depends upon user such as Knife is used for both cutting vegetables and slitting a throat, so the blacksmith will not be questioned abouts its use but the one who uses it. 

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4 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Interesting questions,

Q:1 : - It is straight forward no need to answer.

Q:2: - God gave him choice to choose heaven or hell, it does not matter to God what he answers because what he chooses would be beneficial or harmful for him and not to God. However, sending guidance is helping and God does not leave anyone without it and if someone does not listen to what Prophet says, it is really his choice. There can be various reasons for God not helping him more:

        a) God has already fixed that he has given him intelligence and guidance, it, therefore, gives him control on himself to choose what he likes.

        b) God would not interfere in his choices and force him to accept what God likes because if God does that then what is point of giving them authority to choose between good and                  bad and Rewards and Punishments. 

       c) God may not help him to choose for Him because he would want to show to his creation what is result of those who chooses other than Him.

Q:3: - God did the necessary part for satisfying both physical and spiritual needs of his creation, for physical he provides food and for spiritual, he provides guidance through Prophets.

Human is held responsible because he is granted the quality of choice between good and bad. He is responsible because he has authority to choose good for him and if he chooses bad for him, he is to get punishment, God does not exercises his choices. So for what he does, he is responsible not God. Perhaps you may say that God created him, creating something does not define that inventor did wrong, it depends upon user such as Knife is used for both cutting vegetables and slitting a throat, so the blacksmith will not be questioned abouts its use but the one who uses it.      

ok... please refer to my post right above yours, starting from reply to paragraph 2, about keeping things unseen from us and its benefits

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5 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

ok... please refer to my post right above yours, starting from reply to paragraph 2, about keeping things unseen from us and its benefits

I think, I have addressed you all points within part 2 of my answer. further more: 

You said that God wants for him goodness, yes Allah (عزّ وجلّ) wants for him goodness but there are 2 goodnesses.

1. Either he accept truth and get into heaven, he got truth and he got reward.

2. Or he does not accept the truth and get into hell, in that case, he will ultimately get one goodness that is truth (eventually on judgement day) but it will be late for him to go into heaven.

So, God offers goodness from his part, it is he who choose disgrace for himself.

Edited by Flying_Eagle

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11 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Your 2nd paragraph...

True free will in this sense would only be fair if we also had full and complete knowledge, and that includes hard evidence for the unseen, or the some of the same knowledge, not spoken knowledge, but that of the unseen that the Prophets had.

Ok, this one, if God gives you knowledge of everyone of your affairs, there is no choice to make brother. For example: - You have knowledge of fire that it hurts, will you put hand in it ?

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3 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Ok, this one, if God gives you knowledge of everyone of your affairs, there is no choice to make brother. For example: - You have knowledge of fire that it hurts, will you put hand in it ?

so the Imams and Prophets weren't making choices?

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3 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Ok, this one, if God gives you knowledge of everyone of your affairs, there is no choice to make brother. For example: - You have knowledge of fire that it hurts, will you put hand in it ?

of course not I will not touch fire, but that doesn't mean I won't have to work hard, pray, still become a better human being etc... you are implying knowledge is a bad thing here?

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1 minute ago, khamosh21 said:

of course not I will not touch fire, but that doesn't mean I won't have to work hard, pray, still become a better human being etc... you are implying knowledge is a bad thing here?

Problem is that you do not understand our construction. There are three types of creations, one are perfect human-beings like Imams and Prophets by looking them we are convinced that undoubtedly the one who created them must be most perfect than them. However, when creation of God such as Angels look upon us, they say that what a great mess ignorance is and pray for us. So, God's real motive is to teach His creation about His marifah.

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4 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Problem is that you do not understand our construction. There are three types of creations, one are perfect human-beings like Imams and Prophets by looking them we are convinced that undoubtedly the one who created them must be most perfect than them. However, when creation of God such as Angels look upon us, they say that what a great mess ignorance is and pray for us. So, God's real motive is to teach His creation about His marifah

8 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Their choices were always between good and best, that is why they are called infallibles. 

thanks for your replies brother, unfortunately it doesnt help resolve my issues and problems..  all the best.

The world can only be the way God wants it to be at any given time, if it was any other way, then God would no longer be God. So all the crap is how God wants it to be apparently...

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