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fawad221

I am a Sunni looking for the truth

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Why do Shias hate Umar and Abu Bakr so much? I am really confused in the Sunni view it says that Ali was fine with them becoming caliphs before him, I just want to know the truth I want to get close to Allah and seek knowledge I don't want to commit any fitna or shirk I just want to be aware of the truth, Allah knows best and I am very young and fear Allah and would like Allah to be pleased with me when I die  

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12 hours ago, fawad221 said:

Why do Shias hate Umar and Abu Bakr so much? I am really confused in the Sunni view it says that Ali was fine with them becoming caliphs before him, I just want to know the truth I want to get close to Allah and seek knowledge I don't want to commit any fitna or shirk I just want to be aware of the truth, Allah knows best and I am very young and fear Allah and would like Allah to be pleased with me when I die  

Watch youtube videos by Mustafa Al Qazwini

 

Edited by aaljibar

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13 hours ago, fawad221 said:

Why do Shias hate Umar and Abu Bakr so much? I am really confused in the Sunni view it says that Ali was fine with them becoming caliphs before him, I just want to know the truth I want to get close to Allah and seek knowledge I don't want to commit any fitna or shirk I just want to be aware of the truth, Allah knows best and I am very young and fear Allah and would like Allah to be pleased with me when I die  

Salam

you need to read a lot of books and resources, I’ll recommend you a very good one it’s called Ask Those Who Know by Mohammed al tijani. He was an ex Sunni who converted to Shiism after reading many books and involved in many debates. His book talks about the companions of the Prophet (sawas) and the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). All of his sources are referenced 

hope this helps 

few amanillah

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6 hours ago, Aragaia said:

You can also scroll through old threads here, they're full of Abu Bakr and hate, but it's waste of time in the long run.

Pretty sure there is a lot more to old threads than that, there is a reason why many continue to flock to this site seeking truth.

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13 hours ago, fawad221 said:

Why do Shias hate Umar and Abu Bakr so much? I am really confused in the Sunni view it says that Ali was fine with them becoming caliphs before him, I just want to know the truth I want to get close to Allah and seek knowledge I don't want to commit any fitna or shirk I just want to be aware of the truth, Allah knows best and I am very young and fear Allah and would like Allah to be pleased with me when I die  

Salam maybe study a little about the relations between Ali (عليه السلام) and these persons and also about how lived the family of the Prophet (عليه السلام) during the early caliphates and you will better understand the position of Shia Muslims I think inshallah. 

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1 hour ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Pretty sure there is a lot more to old threads than that, there is a reason why many continue to flock to this site seeking truth.

What's the reason theres about 30ish active posters despite it popping up in search engines remarkably well?

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17 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

What's the reason theres about 30ish active posters despite it popping up in search engines remarkably well?

The reason it pops up so frequently is due to the quality and quantity of relevant content, which search engines favour.

Half the time when I personally have a question or issue, I search the topic followed by "Shiachat" and usually someone has done a thread on it in some form or another over the years.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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Salaam Alaykum Brother :)

They attacked Ali's house and fired his house. Do you think Ali was fine with that? Ali was FORCED to say nothing. This is written in Sunni books. Look at this video. Turn on English subtitle

 

 

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18 hours ago, fawad221 said:

Why do Shias hate Umar and Abu Bakr so much? I am really confused in the Sunni view it says that Ali was fine with them becoming caliphs before him, I just want to know the truth I want to get close to Allah and seek knowledge I don't want to commit any fitna or shirk I just want to be aware of the truth, Allah knows best and I am very young and fear Allah and would like Allah to be pleased with me when I die  

If you really want to know the truth you may like to see the following links that also provide the detailed view of ex Sunni scholar who was converted to Shia named as Tijani Samawi:

http://ijtihadnet.com/school-ahl-al-bayt-best-way-Muslim-unity/

https://www.al-Islam.org/ask-those-who-know-Muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi

wasalam

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I think we as Shia are far too predictable with our responses to robitically citing al-Tijani's Then I Was Guided everytime a Sunni wants to find the truth, especially as it has been critiqued and debunked in certain areas, so it is not the best place to start.

Sure it may be relatable as he was Sunni before too, but I think we have better introductory literature, like Sayid al Qazwini's Inquiries About Shia Islam

https://www.al-Islam.org/inquiries-about-Shia-Islam-Sayyid-moustafa-al-qazwini

Which also has a series of episodes on Youtube based on his book.

Enquiries about Shia Islam: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDt1Kldmx43BQEYDdhZnjcUI9f19aStV8

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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Mostly due to their treatment of the ahl al-Bayt. The list includes:

Abu Bakr conspiring with Umar to take the caliphate, then paying him back by handing it to Umar after his death, despite 'Ali being made master over them both at Ghadir Khumm.

Abu Bakr saying that Prophet's do not leave inheritance and demanding Fatimah prove that Fadak (a gift from Muhammad ) belongs to her. Surely, isn't the burden of proof on Abu Bakr?

Abu Bakr being complicit in the attack on 'Ali's house.


Umar denying the Prophet (s) a paper and a pen in his final days to write a document so the Muslims "would never go astray".

Umar threatening 'Ali and forcing him to pledge allegience.

Umar ordering the striking Fatimah with a whip.

Umar taking the Khumms away from the ahl al-Bayt.

Umar innovating agaisnt the Sunnah (Tarawih prayers, changing the azaan, insulting the Prophet's geneology, wiping feet with socks on in wudhu, praying junub etc).

 

The matter is very confusing my brother because there are many forged hadiths in the Sahih Sunni books which were later written by Muawiyah and 'Amr ibn Al-As, two very sketchy characters who fought 'Ali in his time. Mu'awiyah would pay people like Abu Hurayrah to create hadiths in his favour, notice all the hadiths take the from Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and sometimes Ali... They tried to hide the truth but the Shi'a Imams have made it clear in our sources and you can see shades of these actions of Abu Bakr and Umar in the Sunni sources.

Hate is never a good thing but there are a lot of bitter feelings I think from the Shi'a side for the actions of Abu Bakr and Umar.

Edited by ali47

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On 6/17/2019 at 7:27 PM, fawad221 said:

Why do Shias hate Umar and Abu Bakr so much? 

Let the attitude of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) towards the Shaykhayn (رضي الله عنه) be your guide.

 

Edited by Faruk

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Salamun alaikum.

@fawad221

It is a very heartwarming thing that you are seeking truth.

Honestly the whole Shia Sunni thing is about who is the true successor of our last Prophet (s.a.). Names of certain people may come front in the way of learning truth. But its never really about any specific Abu bakar or Umar that Shias hate. Shias only dislike (or disgusted of) them who modified, divided & destroyed Islam & tortured the holy household of Rasul-e-khoda after his death, Be it Umar on banu sakifa or yazid on Karbala or whoever else.

You can read the books of Dr.... Tijani samawi as other brothers mentioned- 1."Ask those who know" &

2.  "Then I was guided."

 

Also I would recommned another book called "Al-muraja'at".
It is actually a book of some letters written between a Sunni scholat and a Shia scholar with lots of references and logics from both sides.
Link is given below.

https://www.al-Islam.org/al-murajaat-shii-Sunni-dialogue-sharaf-al-din-al-musawi

And last of all, if you really seek truth and Allahs pleasure then in addition with reading and learning, please sincerely ask guidance from your Lord. Inshallah you will be guided to the right soon.

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On 6/21/2019 at 12:57 AM, Warilla said:

Not all Shia do. Read about Zaidiyya.

I did. I read about all religions and sects.

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15 minutes ago, Warilla said:

What was your findings in regard to zaidi madhab

Their concept of imamate is most consistent compared to others because of the following facts:

1) Imamate is indiscriminatory and confined to both sons of Imam Ali (KW) 

2) Imamate should be established openly and publicly just as the Prophet and his predecessors established Islam and Islamic rulership openly and publicly.

3) Every generation should have an Imam who is in contact with his followers and vice versa.

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4) Imam Ali's attitude is the guideline of how we should look at the Shaykhayn (رضي الله عنه).

5) If an Imam does not meet the requirements of an Islamic leader he should resign for one who does.

There is more but these are the main points.

Edited by Faruk

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1 minute ago, Faruk said:

5) Imam Ali's attitude is the guideline of how we should look at the Shaykhayn (رضي الله عنه).

That why zaidi generally respect Hz Abu bakar and Hz Umar.

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3 minutes ago, Warilla said:

That why zaidi generally respect Hz Abu bakar and Hz Umar.

Exactly!

Imam Malik and Abu Hanifa supported Zaidi Imams and their uprisings.

There was positive interaction and even cooperation with schollars from other sects a well though I believe the sectarian lines weren't as harsh and concrete as nowadays.

 

Edited by Faruk

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6 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Exactly!

Imam Malik and Abu Hanifa supported Zaidi Imams and their uprisings.

There was positive interaction and even cooperation with schollars from other sects a well though I believe the sectarian lines weren't as harsh and concrete as nowadays.

 

There was positive interaction among all the main 12er Imams as well

Eg Imam M,Baqir, J, Sadiq.

Problem is a false narrative has been pushed due to politics.

To the point where 12er marja like  fadullah are critised for denying the burning of Bibi Fatima house.

Edited by Warilla

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1 hour ago, Warilla said:

There was positive interaction among all the main 12er Imams as well

Eg Imam M,Baqir, J, Sadiq.

Problem is a false narrative has been pushed due to politics.

To the point where 12er marja like  fadullah are critised for denying the burning of Bibi Fatima house.

The moderate views are more in line with the attitude of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) who I believe would never tolerate the killing of a woman and her child no matter what her lineage or ancestry was let alone ...

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On 6/18/2019 at 1:27 AM, fawad221 said:

Why do Shias hate Umar and Abu Bakr so much? I am really confused in the Sunni view it says that Ali was fine with them becoming caliphs before him, I just want to know the truth I want to get close to Allah and seek knowledge I don't want to commit any fitna or shirk I just want to be aware of the truth, Allah knows best and I am very young and fear Allah and would like Allah to be pleased with me when I die  

The best for you is get very close to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) whether He like you to hate or like Abu Bakr and Umar.

Surely Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will answer your request.  In few years let us know the outcome.

When I was younger (17 years), I asked Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and I got my answers.

Then I got to know hadith Saqalain.  Hold on to Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt, you will never go astray.

That time my understanding on hadith Saqalain was very much different than today.  Every year there is increase understanding, especially on the parts on how to hold on to both Qur'an & Ahlul Bayt, and the mechanism to ensure that we can never go astray.  This is very personal to me and difficult to share.  Everyone will have own experiences.

Edited by layman

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4 hours ago, Warilla said:

To the point where 12er marja like  fadullah are critised for denying the burning of Bibi Fatima house.

He said it was unlikely to have happened, but he did not deny it. And I think he was critisized rather, because he had:

- Strange rulings

- What happened with Bibi Fatima (sa) was according to him unlikely to have happened

- He was more modern and was considered less “Shirazi”

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On 6/17/2019 at 10:27 PM, fawad221 said:

Why do Shias hate Umar and Abu Bakr so much? I am really confused in the Sunni view it says that Ali was fine with them becoming caliphs before him, I just want to know the truth I want to get close to Allah and seek knowledge I don't want to commit any fitna or shirk I just want to be aware of the truth, Allah knows best and I am very young and fear Allah and would like Allah to be pleased with me when I die  

We have disagreement with Hazrat Umer and Hazrat Abu Bakar, because we have found in our books and in books of our brothers that:

1. Hazrat Umer blasphemed Prophet pbuhhp by saying that He (PBUHHP) has lost his mind and refused to give him ink and paper on death bed.

2. Hazrat Umer burnt House of Daighter of Prophet (pbuhhp).

3. Hazrat Abu Bakar took away Garden of Fidak from Syeda Fatima given to her by her father Prophet Muhammad (pbuhhp).

These are few truths. And still there are many.

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17 hours ago, Warilla said:

That why zaidi generally respect Hz Abu bakar and Hz Umar.

Salam , it depends on Zaidi branches that Jarudis that are forming majority of Houthies have same idea like as twelvers  about three caliphs 

17 hours ago, Faruk said:

Exactly!

Imam Malik and Abu Hanifa supported Zaidi Imams and their uprisings.

There was positive interaction and even cooperation with schollars from other sects a well though I believe the sectarian lines weren't as harsh and concrete as nowadays.

 

then they specially Abu Hanifa betrayed & became silenced when Zaid (رضي الله عنه) asked for help that Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) says who hears his call for support & doesn't support him is like as persons that heard call of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) & didn't help him

17 hours ago, Warilla said:

There was positive interaction among all the main 12er Imams as well

Eg Imam M,Baqir, J, Sadiq.

Problem is a false narrative has been pushed due to politics.

To the point where 12er marja like  fadullah are critised for denying the burning of Bibi Fatima house.

all rumors about Ayt Fadullah returns to a edited video by wahabi channels but in complete video he proved "burning of Bibi Fatima house " by referring to false claims. 

12 hours ago, Mortadakerim said:

He said it was unlikely to have happened, but he did not deny it. And I think he was critisized rather, because he had:

- Strange rulings

- What happened with Bibi Fatima (sa) was according to him unlikely to have happened

- He was more modern and was considered less “Shirazi”

whats your evidence !!? 

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2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

whats your evidence !!? 

Salam,

- First of all I love sayed Fadallah for protecting the people of Lebanon and being the best scholars he could be

- I do not trust the rulings, but it was on shiachat. Once.

- He did not say he denied the burning of the house, rather he said it was unlikely and here is a video:

EDIT: I once saw a post about ayatollah Fadlallah (rahimahullah) about his rulings being different to other scholars and there was some controversy about it, but he was a great man with knowledge, indeed.

Edited by Mortadakerim

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16 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

Salam,

- First of all I love sayed Fadallah for protecting the people of Lebanon and being the best scholars he could be

- I do not trust the rulings, but it was on shiachat. Once.

- He did not say he denied the burning of the house, rather he said it was unlikely and here is a video:

 

Thank you for the vid.

My argument is exactly in line with the argument of Sayyid Fadlallah rahimahullah.

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On 6/18/2019 at 1:41 PM, Quran313 said:

Salaam Alaykum Brother :)

They attacked Ali's house and fired his house. Do you think Ali was fine with that? Ali was FORCED to say nothing. This is written in Sunni books. Look at this video. Turn on English subtitle

 

 

Wa alaykum Salaam,

Where is it said that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was forced to say nothing?

Where is it said that Umar (رضي الله عنه) indeed burned the house and crushed the door on Fatima (عليه السلام)?

These are your own conclusions but it is not what the narrated text is saying.

However, the threat in itself took place and was a huge mistake, if not a huge sin.

It wasn't right at all and it was displeasing to the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Edited by Faruk

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57 minutes ago, Mortadakerim said:

EDIT: I once saw a post about ayatollah Fadlallah (rahimahullah) about his rulings being different to other scholars and there was some controversy about it, but he was a great man with knowledge, indeed.

These are very brave schollars who follow their mind instead of adhering to blind faith. He also benefitted to the unity of the Lebanese people and supported the Hezbollah resistance movement.

May Allah have mercy on his soul.

Edited by Faruk

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