Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Follower of Ahlulbayt

Response— "12 Reasons to Leave Shiasm"

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Aragaia said:

The evidence is in the Qur'an which tells you to only seek help from Allah.

Wow. Thats pretty shocking. We can't seek help from anyone except Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? So we can't seek help from teachers, parents, doctors, and other people? Oh, you mean we can't seek help from people when they 1) die or 2) are not present. Now let me ask you, where are these conditions mentioned in the qur'an? Does the qur'an mention that asking help from someone is haram (or shirk) when they die and/or not present? No, there is no evidence for that. 

4 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

It isn't a question of who denies it as much as who came up with it. It's an innovation since there is nothing in the Qur'an or the hadith that would prescribe it.

 The claim this hadith provides evidence it is permissable is absurd as this man met the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wassallam) and asked his help personally.

It isn't an innovation. The Prophet (s) himself told us that we can call him, and there is no evidence that the Prophet (s) restricted saying Ya Muhammed to only when he was alive. 

Uthman bin Hunayf said Ya Muhammed, and the Prophet (s) was not present. This is evidence that the Prophet (s) can hear us when we call upon him. Also, the sahaba Uthman b. Hunayf also said Ya Muhammed after the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) death, so that is evidence that the Prophet can hear us after his death as well. Otherwise, you must admit that Uthman b. Hunayf a sahabi committed an innovation or that he committed shirk. 

Anyways since the Prophet left it general and didn't put any restrictions, it will be considered permissible to say Ya Muhammed even today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Aragaia said:

The evidence is in the Qur'an which tells you to only seek help from Allah.

It isn't a question of who denies it as much as who came up with it. It's an innovation since there is nothing in the Qur'an or the hadith that would prescribe it.

The claim this hadith provides evidence it is permissable is absurd as this man met the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wassallam) and asked his help personally.

The evidences have been presented in earlier posts with the verses of Qur'an, hadith and Sunni scholars opinions for their interpretation.

These comments are  just sueprfical presented here without any thought giving session on the evidences for their interpretation.

waslaam

Edited by Muslim2010

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Aragaia said:

The evidence is in the Qur'an which tells you to only seek help from Allah.

It isn't a question of who denies it as much as who came up with it. It's an innovation since there is nothing in the Qur'an or the hadith that would prescribe it.

The claim this hadith provides evidence it is permissable is absurd as this man met the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wassallam) and asked his help personally.

Are you serious?

Many times the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was requested by people to pray for forgiveness or commanded by Allah to do so.

Same with asking help. How is that shirk?

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Are you serious?

Many times the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was requested by people to pray for forgiveness or commanded by Allah to do so.

Same with asking help. How is that shirk?

Because he was alive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

Because he was alive.

Although you contradict yourself by using the Qur'an to prohibit tawassul and reject a hadith about intercession after the death of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which is widely accepted by Ahlus-Sunnah except the Salafi's I'd like to continue to discuss this on another level.

 

The question is not about life or death.

It's about consciousness.

Which is the ability to perceive without a human body.

Is this possible according to you?

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

Because he was alive.

http://www.ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57

From above link few hadith are presented;

روى أبو صادق عن علي قال : قدم علينا أعرابي بعدما دفنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بثلاثة أيام , فرمى بنفسه على قبر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وحثا على رأسه من ترابه ; فقال : قلت يا رسول الله فسمعنا قولك , ووعيت عن الله فوعينا عنك , وكان فيما أنزل الله عليك " ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم " الآية , وقد ظلمت نفسي وجئتك تستغفر لي . فنودي من القبر إنه قد غفر لك .

Its related from Abu Sadiq (رضي الله عنه) that Imam Ali (رضي الله عنه) said: "Three days after burying the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) The Araabi did come and did throw himself on the grave of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him), he took the Earth and threw it on his head. He said: "Ya Rasulallah! (Peace Be Upon Him) You did speak and we did hear, you learned from Allah and we did learn from you. Between those things which Allah did send you, is following: (4:64) I am the one, which is a sinner and now I did came to you, so that you may ask for me." After that a call from the grave did came: "Theres no doubt, you are forgiven!" [Tafsir al-Qurtubi, al-Jami li Ahkam al-Qur'an Volume 006, Page No. 439, Under the Verse, 4:64]

1.  No companion stopped the person that it was not permitted to speak with the Prophet after his death or it was shirk.including the narrator and Imam Ali as per hadith given above.

2. No Imam of Sunni has mentioned it as shirk or not permitted.

وَهُوَ أَنَّ رَجُلاً كَانَ يَخْتَلِفُ إلَى عُثْمَانَ بْنِ عَفَّانَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ فِي حَاجَةٍ لَهُ، وَكَانَ عُثْمَانُ لاَ يَلْتَفِتُ إلَيْهِ، وَلاَ يَنْظُرُ فِي حَاجَتِهِ، فَلَقِيَ عُثْمَانَ بْنَ حُنَيْفٍ فَشَكَا ذلِكَ إلَيْهِ، فَقَالَ لَهُ عُثْمَانُ بْنُ حُنَيْفٍ: ائْتِ الْمِيضَأَةَ فَتَوَضَّأْ، ثُمَّ ائْتِ الْمَسْجِدَ فَصَلِّ فِيهِ رَكْعَتَيْنِ، ثُمَّ قُلِ: اللَّهُمَّ إنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ، وَأَتَوَجَّهُ إلَيْكَ بِنَبِيِّنَا مُحَمَّدٍ نَبِيِّ الرَّحْمَةِ، يَا مُحَمَّدُ! إنِّي أَتَوَجَّهُ بِكَ إلَى رَبِّي فَيَقْضِي حَاجَتِي، وَتَذْكُرُ حَاجَتَكَ وَرُحْ إلَيَّ حَتَّى أَرُوحَ مَعَكَ، فَانْطَلَقَ الرَّجُلُ فَصَنَعَ مَا قَالَ لَهُ، ثُمَّ أَتَى بَابَ عُثْمَانَ فَجَاءَ الْبَوَّابُ حَتَّى أَخَذَ بِيَدِهِ، فَأَدْخَلَهُ عَلَى عُثْمَانَ بْنِ عَفَّانَ فَأَجْلَسَهُ مَعَهُ عَلَى الطُّنْفَسَةِ، وَقَالَ: مَا حَاجَتُكَ؟ فَذَكَرَ حَاجَتُهُ فَقَضَاهَا لَهُ، ثُمَّ قَالَ: مَا ذَكَرْتُ حَاجَتَكَ حَتَّى كَانَتْ هذِهِ السَّاعَةُ، وَقَالَ: مَا كَانَتْ لَكَ مِنْ حَاجَةٍ فَائْتِنَا، ثُمَّ إنَّ الرَّجُلَ خَرَجَ مِنْ عِنْدِهِ فَلَقِيَ عُثْمَانَ بْنَ حُنَيْفٍ فَقَالَ لَهُ: جَزَاكَ اللَّهُ خَيْراً، مَا كَانَ يَنْظُرُ فِي حَاجَتِي، وَلاَ يَلْتَفِتُ إلَيَّ حَتَّى كَلَّمْتَهُ فِيَّ، فَقَالَ عُثْمَانُ بْنُ حُنَيْفٍ: وَاللَّهِ مَا كَلَّمْتُهُ، وَلَكِنْ شَهِدْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، وَأَتَاهُ رَجُلٌ ضَرِيرٌ فَشَكَا إلَيْهِ ذَهَابَ بَصَرِهِ، فَقَالَ لَهُ النَّبِيُّ: «أَوْ تَصْبِرُ»، فَقَالَ: يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إنَّهُ لَيْسَ لِي قَائِدٌ، وَقَدْ شَقَّ عَلَيَّ؟ فَقَالَ لَهُ النَّبِيُّ: «ائْتِ الْمِيضَأَةَ فَتَوَضَّ

Translation: Imam Tabrani has narrated an incident that a person repeatedly visited Uthman bin Affan (رضي الله عنه) concerning something he needed but Uthman paid no attention to him. The man went to Uthman bin Hunaif (رضي الله عنه) and complained to him about the matter- [Note: this was after the death of the Prophet and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar ] so Uthman bin Hunaif said : “Go to the place of Wudu, then come to the Masjid, perform two Rak'ats and then say : “O Allah!, I ask you and turn to you through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. O Muhammad! I turn through you to my lord, that He fulfil my need” and mention your need. Then come so that I can go with you [to the caliph Uthman] So the man left and did as he had been told, then went to the door of Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him), and the doorman came, took him by the hand, brought him to Uthman ibn Affan, and seated him next to him on a cushion. 'Uthman asked, "What do you need?" and the man mentioned what he wanted, and Uthman accomplished it for him ...(till the end of hadith)

References: Imam al-MundhirI (rah) brought this under "SALAT AL HAJAH" and said: Imam Tabarani after narrating it said "THIS HADITH IS SAHIH" [At-Targheeb wa Tarheeb, Page No. 129 in the chapter of Salaat al Hajah]

Chapter 5: Regarding Tawassul through the Prophet (Peace be upon him) "AFTER HIS DEATH". It is narrated by At-Tabrani and al-Bayhaqi "WITH CONTINEOUS CHAIN (بإسناد متصل ) HAVING THIQA NARRATORS" the hadith of Uthman bin Hunaif (رضي الله عنه) that a man came to Uthman bin Affan (رضي الله عنه) regarding his Hajah .. until the end of same hadith [Muhammad bin Yusuf al-Salihi in Sabl al Hadi, Volume No.12, Page No. 407]

حدثنا ‏ ‏أبو النعمان ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سعيد بن زيد ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏عمرو بن مالك النكري ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أبو الجوزاء أوس بن عبد الله ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏قحط ‏ ‏أهل ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏قحطا ‏ ‏شديدا فشكوا إلى ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏فقالت انظروا قبر النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فاجعلوا منه ‏ ‏كوى ‏ ‏إلى السماء حتى لا يكون بينه وبين السماء سقف قال ففعلوا فمطرنا مطرا حتى نبت العشب وسمنت الإبل حتى ‏ ‏تفتقت ‏ ‏من الشحم فسمي عام ‏ ‏الفتق

Imam Dārimī Relates from Abu al-Jawza’ Aws bin ‘Abdullah: The people of Medina were in the grip of a severe famine. They complained to ‘A’ishah (about their terrible condition). She told them to go towards the Prophet’s grave and open a window in the direction of the sky so that there is no curtain between the sky and the grave. The narrator says they did so. Then it started raining heavily; even the lush green grass sprang up (everywhere) and the camels had grown so fat (it seemed) they would burst out due to the over piling of blubber. So the year was named as the year of greenery and plenty.

References ►Sunan Darimi Volume 001, Page 227, Hadith Number 093 

Muhammad bin ‘Alawi al-Maliki says, “This tradition has a good chain of transmission; rather, in my opinion, it is sound. The scholars have also acknowledged its soundness and have established its genuineness on the basis of almost equally credible evidence. [Shifa’-ul-fu’ad bi-ziyarat khayr--il-‘ibad Page No.153]

.....Others

The above are all Sunni hadith and interpretation of Sunni Imams thus Shia are not be blamed regarding tawassal principle. It is matter of differences among the Sunni so considering it as a reason of leaving Shiism is just a statement of those who live fools paradise.

wasalam

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Although you contradict yourself by using the Qur'an to prohibit tawassul and reject a hadith about intercession after the death of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which is widely accepted by Ahlus-Sunnah except the Salafi's I'd like to continue to discuss this on another level.

 

The question is not about life or death.

It's about consciousness.

Which is the ability to perceive without a human body.

Is this possible according to you?

I have not prohibited tawassul. Nobody has.

it isn't about consciousness. It is about who is capable of helping you and who isn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

I have not prohibited tawassul. Nobody has.

You used the Qur'an to support your interpretation of seeking help only from Allah.

After that you changed and claimed we should only ask help from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) when alive.

17 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

It isn't about consciousness. It is about who is capable of helping you and who isn't.

It isn't about helping but to ask someone to pray for him.

When there is consciousness there is the ability to pray for someone.

And even if the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) would be unconscious for the sake of argument then still we can get salvation through his name just like Sayyidina Adam (عليه السلام) when he (عليه السلام) saw the name of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) on the Throne of Allah.

Love and respect for the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is a virtue and a good deed which can save us from the evil from our own and others just as any other good deed.

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...