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In the Name of God بسم الله
Aragaia

How are Muslims converted away from Islam?

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Is it ignorance alone?

Poor environment?

Dreams of something different and then the dreams connected to another religion by coincidence?

Are the other religions so convincing or are they so irrelevant? (in the the sense that the rules arent as strict and all inclusive.)

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I watched a video where the Ex-Muslims of America group go about talking to Muslims about apostates. 

I didn't think they were particularly ignorant until they started saying how it wasn't Muslim culture but Islamic scripture that turned them away, one said "I was a Muslim until I read the Qur'an". Which really speaks volumes about the sort of life and background these ex-Muslims come from, that people spend their whole life as a "Muslim", but only decided it didn't suit them when they decided to pick up a book they should have been reading from the age of seven or whatever. Ridvan Aydemir, one of the big players in ex-Muslims was a Muslim for less time than I have been, yet decided he was wise enough to be the mouthpiece of ex-Muslim evangelism.

I say it is easier to hate than to love or appreciate, I think it is easier for people who are struggling to just turn away and not bother challenging their perceptions, not try and change their narrative. So yeah, the irrelevancy is the more tempting of options. Rather than research, look into different ideologies and so on, people just give up and it suits their narrative.

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Guest de trout

I doubt those fools have enough self-awareness and maturity to know themselves. It's usually two reasons: trauma and "freedom".

Most of them are dealt a hardship that they perceive as unfair of God, so they disbelieve because they take issue with God. As if to spite Him. The second and less mature group simply wants to live their lives completely unrestricted by any rules.You must pray 5 times a day, you can't have sex freely, you can't eat those foods, you can't drink alcohol, you have to donate a significant portion of your income every year. OR, you can just do whatever you want. They hate Islam because it tells them to do this and that. Isn't it a funny coincidence that satanism's motto is "do what thou wilt/do whatever you want"?

I hope they come to their senses before they die. 

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Laziness. Not wanting to account for ones actions. 

Not wanting to be different or stand out. 

Accepting the anti-religious propaganda all around us. 

In the case of Muslims-turned-Christian... I don't know, I have never met any. 

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4 hours ago, Aragaia said:

Is it ignorance alone?

Poor environment?

Dreams of something different and then the dreams connected to another religion by coincidence?

Are the other religions so convincing or are they so irrelevant? (in the the sense that the rules arent as strict and all inclusive.)

becoz they don’t find out answers of their questions in Islam and research it as it should have been researched.

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People think our religion is hard and the rules are strict. That’s why some people want to become ex. Another thing is the parents, some parents force their children to be religious, but the children will start hating the religion. I’ve seen this a lot. 

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5 hours ago, Aragaia said:

Is it ignorance alone?

That's a factor but not the only factor. Many other things come into play. Parents play the biggest role and it is their action which is probably the key factor.

5 hours ago, Aragaia said:

Poor environment?

While enviornment plays a factor, it is still what happens at home which drives this. Again, if the parenting is adequate during childhood through education and exposure to counteract any outside factors then its not a problem. You can have the most pious Muslim living in Las Vegas, while you can have the most irreligious person living in Medina or Karbala. Its all about what's going inside a person that determines their piety, not so much the enviornment.

5 hours ago, Aragaia said:

Dreams of something different and then the dreams connected to another religion by coincidence?

If a person is put on the right path from early on then there is no chance of a coincidence. A person of weak faith will fall apart at some point, a person of strong faith will stand firm regardless of what comes along in life. This is why the responsibilities of a parent are so highly defined in Islam. If the early foundation of life is solid, then the strongest structure can be built upon it. Coversely, if the foundation is weak, then regardless of what you build the structure will eventually collapse, or at the least become damaged.

5 hours ago, Aragaia said:

Are the other religions so convincing or are they so irrelevant?

If one is strong in their faith they don't see anything convincing in other religions. Even if they find something desirable then they will come back and search for it in their own religion.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to parenting ultimately. If a parent takes the proper steps to ensure Islamic education while taking the steps to explain to their children why something is the way it is clearly then they are only building a foundation which can not be broken. If they lack the proper Islamic knowledge to teach the logic of Islam then there are more than enough resources or people out there that can do it for them. Its all about the end result.

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7 hours ago, Aragaia said:

Is it ignorance alone?

Poor environment?

Dreams of something different and then the dreams connected to another religion by coincidence?

Are the other religions so convincing or are they so irrelevant? (in the the sense that the rules arent as strict and all inclusive.)

There is no people around him (be it parents, siblings, relatives or friends) who eagerly practice of good actions and justice and sincerely worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), so the person can learn and understand and practice himself the commandments of Islam. 

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3 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

becoz they don’t find out answers of their questions in Islam and research it as it should have been researched.

Even if they found these answers, lack of practicing Islam still will make them go away from Islam too. We have Muslims who have faith but lack to do actions, they mostly will fall to the wordily life.

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47 minutes ago, Reza said:

The key question is what drives cultural Muslims to make the leap to ex-Muslim, because the former seems like the best of both worlds (benefits of identity with the privilege of non-belief). 

That's why I doubt ignorance is the result of it, but well, you may find all types of ex-Muslims.

There are some who find their own Muslim identity as detestable, people who are probably racist even toward themselves. It's miserable.

Not sure if non-belief is a privilege hahah. Some people, even atheists, stick to a controlled lifestyle away from vices that are usually condemned in abrahamic religions.

Edited by Bakir

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10 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

I have noticed both online and elsewhere that many people who has been into the Salafi ideology ends up rejecting religion all together and become Atheist.
I think it comes from taking the written word to literally and to little focus on spirituality.

The Wahhabi/Salafi ideology never seems to leave their personality either, I've observed it in many ex-Salafis (not all atheists though, but a great majority). Sadly it seems that Salafism is damaging enough to stay with them for life, even if the ex-Salafi converted to Christianity, Buddhism, Atheism, new age etc. 

Very true about spirituality there, Salafism lacks it, it is more outward and non-spiritual than most fundimentalist "religious" ideologies I've come across. True pity because the mainstream scrapes up against more of them than genuine Islam and Islam's true spirituality :(

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6 minutes ago, HakimPtsid said:

Sadly it seems that Salafism is damaging enough to stay with them for life, even if the ex-Salafi converted to Christianity, Buddhism, Atheism, new age etc. 

I hope I haven't been damaged by these clowns too badly, I since mistook it for "traditional Islam" ^ 

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Salam ,it's also a political matter majority of Iranian that changed their religion from time of revolution did it for political reasons as an  opposition against Islamic regime ,at first it was very easy because they were converting in Western countries but they were hiding for preserving a chance for return to Iran as an Western citizen but after Syria war in recent years ,Western countries put them under heavy supervision that they had to reveal their converting publicly that it's a political issue inside Iran that is supporting by evangelist but it mostly shifted to Sunni refugees that most of are from Syria & a few in radical Sunni countries like as KSA (specially women) that they will receive evangelist protection & Support if they run away to a Western country & ask their support 

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7 hours ago, Reza said:

The key question is what drives cultural Muslims to make the leap to ex-Muslim, because the former seems like the best of both worlds (benefits of identity with the privileges and perks of non-belief). 

Part of it is the parents don’t adopt new strategies or stay connected to their children they expect the culture to carry which it doesn’t. You have to adapt to new conditions and environment or be defeated by them.

Mosques also are strict places of worship without cultural component like learning poetry or exploring history that would make things engaging for the youth, people put little effort into such things and that’s what they receive.

I think Sayyid Ammar mentioned it in a lecture, the mosque should be a place for many activities not just religious. He talked about a Jewish synagogue and how they funded a gym, swimming pool and started a community center as well.

Finally, politically in the West Muslims are sterile with confused politics or non quietest and expecting things to favor them. 

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Should we bother about that "Muslims converted away"?
I think no.
Religion is very personal. I will follow what I like, no one I mean no one in this present world got the authority to tell me what is right. Right for me what I think is right (in the light of Qur'an).
That is why when I meet ex Muslims I never ask them why they converted away. It is none of my business, but when they discuss religion with me I use to tell them that why I follow Qur'an and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). I try to clear confusions they have about Qur'an and Islam with all my knowledge but do not bother whether I am able to convince them or not. Only Allah can guide them to the right path not me.
 

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19 hours ago, funklebits said:

I second this. Nothing else makes me want to walk away from Islam more than other Muslims.

I used to agree, then, after finding my own way and being at peace, I came to the conclusion: I came to this outsider's religion as an outsider and I'll die as an outsider of this religion too. No use getting wound up or bothered by other Muslims, by Allah, I promise they don't give two kebabs about you or me.

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3 hours ago, aaaz1618 said:

I used to agree, then, after finding my own way and being at peace, I came to the conclusion: I came to this outsider's religion as an outsider and I'll die as an outsider of this religion too. No use getting wound up or bothered by other Muslims, by Allah, I promise they don't give two kebabs about you or me.

Thank you for this and that's a brilliant way to phrase it. 

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Here's a post I did recently. It explains some stuff I noticed about our people. Sorry for it being long. =/ I have an intense TL;Dr. defense mechanism so I feel for you.

 

Quote

I've never really agreed with the idea that a person can't or shouldn't shake the hands or hug a person of the opposite gender. That means teachers, future business partners, police, possible in-laws etc. can't be shown this gesture of peace and comfort. You want to discuss consequences? Not doing this paints a bad picture of yourself to whoever you reject a hug or handshake from and generally just makes you look weird. Not because you didn't explain things "correctly", but because even if you did explain that it's a religious thing, which people in the Western places do accept, there just some things just using your religion as an excuse still brings questions. Like "why". And they will wonder without answer. It could cost you things like a job application or a good impression on your convert interest's non-Muslim parents. 

Islam is an entirely logical religion. All things that we do have reason and benefits behind them. We don't always know what the reasons are as some knowledge is with Allah alone, but the only reasons I've been told about why we shouldn't do these things is "because it's haram in the religion" and "I'm going to go to my room with lotion with a box of tissues afterwards".

Anything you do can be blown out of proportion with lack of self-control. Women are a known weakness to men. So should we lock them up at home and protect our men from their beauty? No. So we let them walk the streets as all people do as they go about their day. WHAT? They walk the streets? So should we hide at home to protect ourselves from their beauty? Women are only NOW allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. Like WHAT?

Don't get me wrong, if you want to avoid all physical contact with the opposite gender to protect your purity, by all means, do so. The intention is sound. May Allah reward you for your efforts. But to make a ruling based on those that can't handle a 1 second handshake with someone they're not married to is not okay in my opinion. By making rules that benefit the weakest of us do not help make them stronger. It makes things harder on everyone else that doesn't have that problem or have bad intentions. This is actually a problem right now in the West. Too many whiners who think they have the entitlement to voice whatever garbage they want and cause unnecessary conflict over the smallest of 'issues'. They're called SJWs. And Karens. Who do you think created the 99+ genders and gender identification over there? These people. Some more consequences to think about related to making fatwas, new laws etc. instead of just practicing and teaching self-awareness and self-control. 

So far this has all been just my own personal stream of thought as well as the limit of my thought process on the matter, but I really do think that it seems like a lot of Muslims nowadays are quick to make and throw rulings around and shove their thoughts down people's throats INSTEAD of THINKING about WHY a sheikh or scholar came to a particular conclusion of their own or UNDERSTANDING why Allah and the Prophet orders things from us. How can you explain your religion to the non-Muslims if your only reason for doing things is "my parents said so and so", "my sheikh or scholar said so and so" etc? Even the people you follow have their reasons. It's up to us to show people Islam. We are the face of the religion. Have your reasons and understanding of a concept as well as the final judgement. You will teach no one like this. I know you can't MAKE anyone agree with you, that's up to them. But you CAN explain your religion, but only if you have more to say. And avoid arguing. There is a fine line between explaining and arguing.

There is no blind following in Islam. The wisest of us understands our religion which strengthens our iman.

So here's some evidence I have. It's not a direct touch on the topic, but it should explain my thought processes better.

I read a hadeeth that not once did the sahaba see the Prophet touch a person of the opposite gender. However I never read anything saying he objected someone who did it. Perhaps the evidence disappeared in time and is buried somewhere, but I follow what I can find and I avoid assumption. As it is told to do in the Qur'an, to avoid assumption or suspicion.

Islam is said to be easy in one of the ayahs in the Qur'an and that to make it hard on one's self, will destroy that person. So I make Islam easy on myself. I know you've heard stories of Muslims leaving Islam because it was difficult for them and that they just couldn't understand certain things. I've actually met and spoke and tried to answer some of their questions and erase their doubts. Not shaking hands or giving people hugs makes me very stressed out and makes the atmosphere uncomfortable. Non-Muslims see hugs and handshakes as small and therefore something anyone should be able to just do from any religion or race. It's a gesture of peace and by rejecting it makes us look like we aren't peaceful people. We handshake each other anyways and they know it too. =/ I've tried abstaining and done it for about a year, but I couldn't justify it any longer.

 

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5 hours ago, Subhan_Allah_Wa_Bihumdih said:

Here's a post I did recently

Salaam brother / sister

Some good reflection and insight.

In a lot of cases I do agree that fundamentalists overcomplicate religion or make it more burdensome than necessary. Nonetheless, what is your opinion on the means in which our fuqaha derive jurisprudential rulings? I see the importance of using our intellect, however, where does the slippery slope end if we were to take the easier road and make Islam ‘easier’ for us? I think we should especially consider this given that we may well be living in the end times.

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2 hours ago, Ejaz said:

Salaam brother / sister

Some good reflection and insight.

In a lot of cases I do agree that fundamentalists overcomplicate religion or make it more burdensome than necessary. Nonetheless, what is your opinion on the means in which our fuqaha derive jurisprudential rulings? I see the importance of using our intellect, however, where does the slippery slope end if we were to take the easier road and make Islam ‘easier’ for us? I think we should especially consider this given that we may well be living in the end times.

I'd like to believe they have their sources and they have their own collection of hadeeth. And I think all people should do the same. If the people I'm following study and research the religion for themselves, why aren't I doing the same? For myself I strictly follow what I read. So Qur'an and my collection of hadeeth. I'm not saying however don't learn from scholars and people that are believed to be more knowledgable, it's still a source of knowledge, but when I or anyone asks a person where did you get the idea that this haram or that's haram, it should be the actually verse or hadeeth and not "someone said so" or they simply come up with their own logical explanations without any evidence.

When I say "easier for us", it's only because I hear a lot of things that people believe is wrong or right and I hear their reasons and I just don't get it or agree with it and then they pressure others to do the same. Things being this way means that whoever is the most aggressive or pushy can pressure everyone to follow what they do. This makes people do things they didn't need to before all because someone made them worry about some consequence or pressured them some other way.

I'm independent minded so I'm not likely to do anything just because someone close to me said so. I introspect, evaluate and come to a conclusion in the most purest form of "my own personal opinion" as possible. No matter what, someone will say something that we agree with and it'd inevitably mix with our own personal belief system, but I do this because I don't want to make it easy for anyone to be capable of convincing me so easily and changing my own belief system. Only Allah and the Prophet should have such obedience from us or power to change our minds. I've been wrong in the past so I don't want to be even a tiny bit gullible.

Everyone else should be looked at with caution. Even me! I urge everyone to consider that perhaps I'm right about my own personal beliefs and to research more to continue to argue with me. Even if we don't come to an agreement, even the sahaba and family of the Prophet at the time of the Prophet had their differences, to which both parties went to the Prophet himself and asked for his judgement. As long as you did your own work and researched the practices and sayings of the Prophet to argue with me, it's all I ask. I'm not here to convince anyone of anything.

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On 6/13/2019 at 11:55 AM, Aragaia said:

Is it ignorance alone?

Poor environment?

Dreams of something different and then the dreams connected to another religion by coincidence?

Are the other religions so convincing or are they so irrelevant? (in the the sense that the rules arent as strict and all inclusive.)

Sometimes its how many Muslims practice the religion or when they mix tradition with religionor authority with religion, it can lead someone to think this is the religion and they turn to finding another belief

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If you look on YouTube you come across 2 types mostly

1) they didn'thave any idea of Islam in the first place.

2) they studied in-depth and found something that they just couldn't accept. (Normally in sahih bukhari)

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