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In the Name of God بسم الله

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عن علي، قال لقد عهد إلي النبي الأمي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه لا يحبك إلا مؤمن، ولا يبغضك إلا منافق

Narrated 'Ali: The Prophet (ﷺ) - the Unlettered Prophet - exhorted me (saying): 'None loves you except a believer and none hates you except a hypocrite.'

— Jami at-Tirmidhi, Chapters on Virtues, The Virtues of Ali - (sunnah.com) ; (Darrussalam 3736)

قال علي: والله إنه مما عهد إلي رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - أنه لا يبغضني إلا منافق، ولا يحبني إلا مؤمن

'Ali (رضي الله عنه) said: By Allah, one of the things that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) promised me was that no one would hate me except a hypocrite and no one would love me except a believer.

— Musnad Ahmad, Musnad Ali Bin Abi Talib - (Darussalam 642, 731 , 1062)

Edited by Abu Nur

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16 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

The hadith is referring to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). But for your answer, a person who call himself a Muslim and dislike the Prophet (saws) is Munafiq.

He said that about himself? :shock:

That's like breaching copyrights.

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6 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

He said that about himself? :shock:

That's like breaching copyrights.

'Ali (رضي الله عنه) said: By Allah, one of the things that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) promised me was that no one would hate me except a hypocrite and no one would love me except a believer.

- It is clear that The Prophet (saws) is talking about Imam Ali (عليه السلام). But why do suddenly refer to the Prophet?

Edited by Abu Nur

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43 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

He said that about himself? :shock:

That's like breaching copyrights.

"Copyright ownership gives the owner the exclusive right to use the work" - How come quoting Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is breaching copyrights? Sorry but this was completely irrelevant. 

The whole Bukhari and Muslim will be copyrighted materials if that's what you believe in. I think you don't want to accept this Hadith cause it will prove many of those that Sunni brothers revere as Hypocrites.

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2 hours ago, Guest Neutral said:

"Copyright ownership gives the owner the exclusive right to use the work" - How come quoting Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is breaching copyrights? Sorry but this was completely irrelevant. 

The whole Bukhari and Muslim will be copyrighted materials if that's what you believe in. I think you don't want to accept this Hadith cause it will prove many of those that Sunni brothers revere as Hypocrites.

And copyright didn't exist at the time. I mean the formerly mentioned is what Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wassallam) said of himself. Its silly to think he said it of Ali as well. Not to mention that Ali would say it about himself.

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On 6/11/2019 at 2:20 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Yeah I guess the reply to this would be that Aisha and Hafsa were non-believers in the sense that they  were hypocrites. In reality hypocrites are kafir but since they don't openly do kufr the rules of Islam still apply to them

Applying takfir to the Prophet's wives (sa) is tricky business and we will have to account for it on yawm al-qiyama.

There was an argument that took place after 'Ali won the Battle of Basra in his army, where they claimed they wanted to seize the booty and take the women captives. 'Ali replied they were fighting Muslims so this would not be the case, he even rhetorically asked who would dare take 'Aisha as their share (of booty)?? [Shaykh al-Mufid al-Jamal]

Therefore 'Ali considered them Muslims (at least outwardly) and tried to bring them back to the path as a matter of Islamic duty. 'Aisha did seem to show remorse and did later speak out against incidents like Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan killing Hujr ibn 'Adi etc. We should adopt the path of 'Ali with regards to people like this, consider them Muslims but not be afraid to point out their faults and unreliaiblity. Ahl al-Sunnah sometimes go to the other extreme glorifying them regardless of what atriocities are committed under the excuse of "itjihad".

Edited by ali47

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24 minutes ago, ali47 said:

Applying takfir to the Prophet's wives (sa) is tricky business and we will have to account for it on yawm al-qiyama.

There was an argument that took place after 'Ali won the Battle of Basra in his army, where they claimed they wanted to seize the booty and take the women captives. 'Ali replied they were fighting Muslims so this would not be the case, he even rhetorically asked who would dare take 'Aisha as their share (of booty)?? [Shaykh al-Mufid al-Jamal]

Therefore 'Ali considered them Muslims (at least outwardly) and tried to bring them back to the path as a matter of Islamic duty. 'Aisha did seem to show remorse and did later speak out against incidents like Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan killing Hujr ibn 'Adi etc. We should adopt the path of 'Ali with regards to people like this, consider them Muslims but not be afraid to point out their faults and unreliaiblity. Ahl al-Sunnah sometimes go to the other extreme glorifying them regardless of what atriocities are committed under the excuse of "itjihad".

That's it. There is a balanced middle-way in approaching the matter. In both parties there are extremities. That's why I am perfectly fine being attached to no sect or creed.

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23 hours ago, Aragaia said:

He said that about himself? :shock:

That's like breaching copyrights.

The following are few examples from Sunni hadith source:

Narrated Aisha: It was one of the favors of Allah towards me that Allah's Apostle expired in my house on the day of my turn while he was leaning against my chest and Allah made my saliva mix with his saliva at his death. 'Abdur-Rahman entered upon me with a Siwak in his hand and I was supporting (the back of) Allah's Apostle (against my chest ). I saw the Prophet looking at it (I.e. Siwak) and I knew that he loved the Siwak, so I said ( to him ), "Shall I take it for you ? " He nodded in agreement. So I took it and it was too stiff for him to use, so I said, "Shall I soften it for you ?" He nodded his approval. So I softened it and he cleaned his teeth with it. In front of him there was a jug or a tin, (The sub-narrator, 'Umar is in doubt as to which was right) containing water. He started dipping his hand in the water and rubbing his face with it, he said, "None has the right to be worshipped except Allah. Death has its agonies." He then lifted his hands (towards the sky) and started saying, "With the highest companion," till he expired and his hand dropped down.

 
Narrated Urwa: 'Aisha said, "Allah's Apostle in his fatal illness, used to ask, 'Where will I be tomorrow? Where will I be tomorrow?", seeking 'Aisha's turn. His wives allowed him to stay wherever he wished. So he stayed at 'Aisha's house till he expired while he was with her." 'Aisha added, "The Prophet expired on the day of my turn in my house and he was taken unto Allah while his head was against my chest and his saliva mixed with my saliva." 'Aisha added, "Abdur-Rahman bin Abu Bakr came in, carrying a Siwak he was cleaning his teeth with. Allah's Apostle looked at it and I said to him, 'O 'AbdurRahman! Give me this Siwak.' So he gave it to me and I cut it, chewed it (it's end) and gave it to Allah's Apostle who cleaned his teeth with it while he was resting against my chest."
 
and Many others
 
Do you consider these as virtues or breach of copy rights claims by statements of Aisha the wife of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?
 
Edited by Muslim2010

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On 6/11/2019 at 9:33 PM, Aragaia said:

I said virging, not childless. But how did they know she was infertile?

Allah let Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wassallam) know about other hypocrites. He would have let him know of a wife. Aisha was his favorite wife.

Aisha, was not his favourite wife, where did you get that from?

It is known that Khadijah (عليه السلام) is the Rasullulah's(sawas) favourite wife and nobody could ever replace her. Whenever he mentioned her infront of Aisha, she would get enraged and start to call her names. 

 

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1 minute ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

Aisha, was not his favourite wife, where did you get that from?

It is known that Khadijah (عليه السلام) is the Rasullulah's(sawas) favourite wife and nobody could ever replace her. Whenever he mentioned her infront of Aisha, she would get enraged and start to call her names. 

 

I meant from the later wive's.

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31 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

Aisha, was not his favourite wife, where did you get that from?

It is known that Khadijah (عليه السلام) is the Rasullulah's(sawas) favourite wife and nobody could ever replace her. Whenever he mentioned her infront of Aisha, she would get enraged and start to call her names. 

 

Aisha, Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman (رضي الله عنه) are venerated because the Umawi and Abbasi kings used them as a counterforce to imamate and to legitimize their own rulership. 

All rulers should be from Quraish.

The funny thing is that this was the ijtihad of Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) during Saqifah and not something binding for all Muslims at any time.

I btw do not suppport imamate. Just wanted to point out that some Sunni creedal matters are not consistent nor a prophetic sunnah.

 

 

Edited by Faruk

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2 hours ago, Faruk said:

Aisha, Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman (رضي الله عنه) are venerated because the Umawi and Abbasi kings used them as a counterforce to imamate and to legitimize their own rulership. 

All rulers should be from Quraish.

The funny thing is that this was the ijtihad of Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) during Saqifah and not something binding for all Muslims at any time.

I btw do not suppport imamate. Just wanted to point out that some Sunni creedal matters are not consistent nor a prophetic sunnah.

 

 

MashAllah, look at the evidences for Ghadir Khumm in purely Sunni sources it's amazing.

https://sunnah.com/search/?q=khumm

https://www.al-Islam.org/message-thaqalayn/general-message-thaqalayn/glimpses-shiism-musnad-ibn-hanbal-Dr......-Sayyid-kazim/6

The second link is a speech of 'Ali years later in Iraq referencing Ghadir Khumm! Of course, this is completely ignoring all the Shia sources.

This is when you come to realise the creedal matters for Sunnis came later on, whereas doctrinally the Shias have maintained from day one 'Ali was the leader after the Prophet (s) and 12 Imams would follow. As the words of a wise Shia scholar once said, "the strenghth of our madhab is that it can be proven from the opponents books".

:)

Edited by ali47

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6 minutes ago, ali47 said:

MashAllah, look at the evidences for Ghadir Khumm in purely Sunni sources it's amazing.

https://sunnah.com/search/?q=khumm

https://www.al-Islam.org/message-thaqalayn/general-message-thaqalayn/glimpses-shiism-musnad-ibn-hanbal-Dr.......-Sayyid-kazim/6 (years later 'Ali would reference Ghadir Khumm himself)

This is when you come to realise the creedal matters for Sunnis came later on, whereas doctrinally the Shias have maintained from day one 'Ali was the leader after the Prophet (s) and 12 Imams would follow. As the words of a wise Shia scholar once said, "the strenghth of our madhab is that it can be proven from the opponents books".

:)

Unfortunately the co-operative and flexible behaviour of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) towards the first 3 caliphs shows otherwise.

The only way to rationalize imamate is to claim that he (عليه السلام) did so because of certain intentions.

And intentions to me are the area of Allah. I only make conclusions according his behaviour which was far from hostile.

Edited by Faruk

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19 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Umfortunately the cooperative and flexible behaviour of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) towards the first 3 caliphs shows otherwise.

The only way to rationalize imamate is to claim that he (عليه السلام) did so because of certain intentions.

All it does is prove 'Ali's patience. It's interesting that you had early Sunni historians like Ibn Abi al-Hadid who believed that Imam 'Ali was the righteous Imam but nevertheless the held allegience of Abu Bakr was now binding - this is probably the closest you can get to Shi'ism without being a Shia. This was the policy of Imam 'Ali to some degree but not because he whole heartedly agreed with Abu Bakr and 'Umar.

Our sources have 'Ali simply stating, "If I was declared to have priority over the believers (awla/mawla) how does anyone have priority over me?". This argument of 'Ali still stands strong today especially given how Ghadir Khumm is narrated in the books of both schools. He had priority over the believers even though they forced themselves over him in the end. The big problem are the narrations of 'Ali allegedly praising Abu Bakr, Umar and 'Uthman which has confused matters. We have narrations showing us that people like 'Amr ibn Al-As made these up to support Mu'awiyah (these are on the authority of 'Ali himself). 

The whole idea of the 4 righteous caliphs came later on after the reign of Mu'awiyah, at that point 'Ali was cursed publicly in Syria. Before then it was the Shias of Uthman and the Shias of 'Ali. The Shias of Uthman upheld the traditions of Abu Bakr and Umar, whilst the Shia of 'Ali upheld the traditions of 'Ali (references to this can be seen in the narrations during the battle of Karbala). Still there's no escaping Ghadir Khumm, even if they do say it was all down to some distribution of booty amongst 'Ali's army!

The fact that 'Ali refused the allegience and 'Umar threatened to torch his house is telling although I appreciate there is a lot of exaggeration around this event. Nevertheless 'Ali was coereced to pledge allegience, although Sunnis sources dispute this and insist 'Ali "thought that he had right in the matter but then decided he was wrong" and pleged allegience peacefully. Clearly something changed 'Ali's mind into believing he was no longer mawla over the believers I reckon it was Umar's torch as this has again been narrated by both schools.

Edited by ali47

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