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Follower of Ahlulbayt

Aisha and Hafsa

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On 6/12/2019 at 9:06 PM, Muslim2010 said:

The matter of not divorcing her seems similar to the behavior with the people of Makkah  including hypocrites who were present at time of conquest of Makkah. But the Prophet did not take them out or punish and just did not give attention to their matter.

Imam Ali AS did send Aisha back because he exhibited the same manner as was showed by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at the time of conquest of Makakh to his opponents including the hypocrites.

wasalam

Salam,

And how do you know this was really the case?

These are the points that withhold me to embrace Shia Islam unconditionally and totally.

A lot of theories and arguments are made yet there is no solid proof that it is really is as assumed/suggested.

We should not delve into intentions as this is a forbidden area. That's a basic principle in Islamic jurisprudence when it comes to penal matters.

The only things which are in our area is that what we can perceive with the 5 senses which picts a positive attitude of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) towards the Mothers of the believers and the first three caliphs (رضي الله عنه).

Edited by Faruk

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31 minutes ago, Faruk said:

How do you know?

What do you mean how I know. If Prophet Muhammad (saws) ask forgiveness for Aisha, does it mean she can do whatever she want and still she is in Jannah because of the dua? It is clear that there were companions of Prophet that will not attain Jannah because of what they did after the Prophet. I don't know about Aisha repetance. What I know is that whoever attack or disrespect Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) will not get good image about themselves or no one will trust or take their words seriously. 

Quote

What we know is that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) treated her (رضي الله عنه) well.

Yes, so? 

Edited by Abu Nur

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5 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

It is clear that there were companions of Prophet that will not attain Jannah because of what they did after the Prophet.

Did the Prophet keep a secret diary?

since the Prophet was dead and the Qur'an revealed, you can't know what happens in the  hereafter to people not mentioned by the Prophet.

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3 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

since the Prophet was dead and the Qur'an revealed, you can't know what happens in the  hereafter to people not mentioned by the Prophet.

 

Chapter: “And fear the Fitnah which affects not in particular those among you who do wrong….”

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "I will be at my Lake-Fount (Kauthar) waiting for whoever will come to me. Then some people will be taken away from me whereupon I will say, 'My followers!' It will be said, 'You do not know they turned Apostates as renegades (deserted their religion).'" (Ibn Abi Mulaika said, "Allah, we seek refuge with You from turning on our heels from the (Islamic) religion and from being put to trial").Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 7048 Book 92, Hadith 1 ,USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 9, Book 88, Hadith 172

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force whereupon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.'"

I heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar), and whoever will come to it, will drink from it, and whoever will drink from it, will never become thirsty after that. There will come to me some people whom I know and they know me, and then a barrier will be set up between me and them."

"I will say those people are from me. It will be said, 'You do not know what changes and new things they did after you.' Then I will say, 'Far removed (from mercy), far removed (from mercy), those who changed (the religion) after me!"

--

These are the companions who will not enter Jannah, and as the Prophet says to them Far removed from his mercy. Who are they? Apostate, Hypocrite, Making Innovations, causing Fitnah. Not by names, but by actions you will see it clear.

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But according to  this Sahih Bukhari hadith, both are in the fire:

Narrated Al-Hasan:

(Al-Ahnaf said:) I went out carrying my arms during the nights of the affliction (I.e. the war between `Ali and `Aisha) and Abu Bakra met me and asked, "Where are you going?" I replied, "I intend to help the cousin of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) (I.e.,`Ali)." Abu Bakra said, "Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, 'If two Muslims take out their swords to fight each other, then both of them will be from amongst the people of the Hell- Fire.' It was said to the Prophet, 'It is alright for the killer but what about the killed one?' He replied, 'The killed one had the intention to kill his opponent.'" (See Hadith No. 30, Vol. 1)

Narrated Al-Ahnaf:

Abu Bakra said: The Prophet (ﷺ) said (as above, 204).

Reference  : Sahih al-Bukhari 7083
In-book reference  : Book 92, Hadith 34
USC-MSA web (English) reference  : Vol. 9, Book 88, Hadith 204

---

What a wonderful book, all that time trying to protecting their beloved personality, but in their own book you find such a disgusting narration.

Edited by Abu Nur

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3 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

But according to  this Sahih Bukhari hadith, both Imam Ali (عليه السلام)  (Audublillah) and Aisha are in the fire:

Narrated Al-Hasan:

(Al-Ahnaf said:) I went out carrying my arms during the nights of the affliction (I.e. the war between `Ali and `Aisha) and Abu Bakra met me and asked, "Where are you going?" I replied, "I intend to help the cousin of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) (I.e.,`Ali)." Abu Bakra said, "Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, 'If two Muslims take out their swords to fight each other, then both of them will be from amongst the people of the Hell- Fire.' It was said to the Prophet, 'It is alright for the killer but what about the killed one?' He replied, 'The killed one had the intention to kill his opponent.'" (See Hadith No. 30, Vol. 1)

Narrated Al-Ahnaf:

Abu Bakra said: The Prophet (ﷺ) said (as above, 204).

Reference  : Sahih al-Bukhari 7083
In-book reference  : Book 92, Hadith 34
USC-MSA web (English) reference  : Vol. 9, Book 88, Hadith 204

---

What a wonderful book, all that time trying to protecting their beloved personality, but in their own book you find such a disgusting narration.

It doesn't say they will both be in the fire.

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8 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

 

Chapter: “And fear the Fitnah which affects not in particular those among you who do wrong….”

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "I will be at my Lake-Fount (Kauthar) waiting for whoever will come to me. Then some people will be taken away from me whereupon I will say, 'My followers!' It will be said, 'You do not know they turned Apostates as renegades (deserted their religion).'" (Ibn Abi Mulaika said, "Allah, we seek refuge with You from turning on our heels from the (Islamic) religion and from being put to trial").Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 7048 Book 92, Hadith 1 ,USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 9, Book 88, Hadith 172

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force whereupon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.'"

I heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar), and whoever will come to it, will drink from it, and whoever will drink from it, will never become thirsty after that. There will come to me some people whom I know and they know me, and then a barrier will be set up between me and them."

"I will say those people are from me. It will be said, 'You do not know what changes and new things they did after you.' Then I will say, 'Far removed (from mercy), far removed (from mercy), those who changed (the religion) after me!"

--

These are the companions who will not enter Jannah, and as the Prophet says to them Far removed from his mercy. Who are they? Apostate, Hypocrite, Making Innovations, causing Fitnah. Not by names, but by actions you will see it clear.

This isn't clear. First of all there are many levels of paradise. Second only the last bit about mercy give the indication that they might go to jahannam. However, if they did we don't know if they will stay there.

thirdly, it is most likely only a way of presentation that the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wassallam) is asked does he not know?

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22 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

'If two Muslims take out their swords to fight each other, then both of them will be from amongst the people of the Hell- Fire

This only applies where there is a death of one and even then situation vary.

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2 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

This isn't clear. First of all there are many levels of paradise. Second only the last bit about mercy give the indication that they might go to jahannam. However, if they did we don't know if they will stay there.

Lol, for example Apostates or Innovators will perhaps go to lower Jannah or perhaps they maybe go to Jahannam? Anyway this following statement "barrier will be set up between me and them" can be understood from the Qur'anic verse:

[Qur'an 57:13] On that day, the hypocrite men and women will say to those who believed, "Please allow us to absorb some of your light." It will be said, "Go back behind you, and seek light." A barrier will be set up between them, whose gate separates mercy on the inner side, from retribution on the outer side.

 

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4 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

This only applies where there is a death of one and even then situation vary.

Read it very very slowly and use your Aql, it says if "If two Muslims take out their swords to fight each other, then both of them will be from amongst the people of the Hell- Fire". It does not say that they need to get killed. Their intention is for both of them to kill. The one who dies, he also get fire of hell because of his intention.

This whole issue was related to the Battle of Jamal.

Edited by Abu Nur

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2 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Lol, for example Apostates or Innovators will perhaps go to lower Jannah or perhaps they maybe go to Jahannam? Anyway this following statement "barrier will be set up between me and them" can be understood from the Qur'anic verse:

[Qur'an 57:13] On that day, the hypocrite men and women will say to those who believed, "Please allow us to absorb some of your light." It will be said, "Go back behind you, and seek light." A barrier will be set up between them, whose gate separates mercy on the inner side, from retribution on the outer side.

 

Can it indeed? I shall think about it. But the word barrier is quite frequent in the Qur'an.

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2 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Read it very very slowly and use your Aql, it says if "If two Muslims take out their swords to fight each other, then both of them will be from amongst the people of the Hell- Fire". It does not say that they need to get killed. Their intention is for both of them to kill. The one who dies, he also get fire of hell because of his intention.

This whole issue was related to the Battle of Jamal.

And continues, "it is alright for the killer but what about the killed one?"

You're making assumptions. The Qur'an would negate the entire hadith if it had the meaning you give it.

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Just now, Aragaia said:

Can it indeed? I shall think about it. But the word barrier is quite frequent in the Qur'an.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "While I was sleeping, a group (of my followers were brought close to me), and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from amongst (us) me and them, he said (to them), 'Come along.' I asked, 'Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah' I asked, 'what is wrong with them' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left.' Then behold! (Another) group (of my followers) were brought close to me, and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from (me and them) he said (to them),
Come along.' I asked, "Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah.' I asked, What is wrong with them?' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left. So I did not see anyone of them escaping except a few who were like camels without a shepherd." Sahih al-Bukhari Book 76 Hadith 587

 

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4 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

You're making assumptions. The Qur'an would negate the entire hadith if it had the meaning you give it.

The Qur'an actually kills the whole hadith, but what you can do but to accept it as authentic one.

Quote

And continues, "it is alright for the killer but what about the killed one?"

That is the companion statement assuming that for sure it must be for the killer. It does not state that one of them must die. It is clear that says if they both fight each other. That is action and intention by itself.

Edited by Abu Nur

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1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

The Qur'an actually kills the whole hadith, but what you can do but to accept it as authentic one.

That is the companion statement assuming that for sure it must be for the killer. It does not state that one of them must die. It is clear that says if they both fight each other. That is action and intention by itself.

Yes. There is contradiction - in your version or it.

If it is as you say - for which the hadith gives no particular indication - the hadith would be false. If it is as I say - which is indicated in the hadith - it goes along well with the Qur'an.

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Just now, Aragaia said:

Yes. There is contradiction - in your version or it.

If it is as you say - for which the hadith gives no particular indication - the hadith would be false. If it is as I say - which is indicated in the hadith - it goes along well with the Qur'an.

Lol my version.

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Guest Neutral
23 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

Yes. There is contradiction - in your version or it.

If it is as you say - for which the hadith gives no particular indication - the hadith would be false. If it is as I say - which is indicated in the hadith - it goes along well with the Qur'an.

Can you please provide what other version of the Hadith you have? I can't see any metaphors in this Hadith, it's quite literal. So, I am not sure how you can defend it?

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31 minutes ago, Guest Neutral said:

Can you please provide what other version of the Hadith you have? I can't see any metaphors in this Hadith, it's quite literal. So, I am not sure how you can defend it?

The version of the hadith is the same. I meant the interpretation. 

It isn't literal. For one, it by no means limits this fighting to using of swords.

But as said before, if you insist on this simple minded interpretation, the hadith becomes invalid by default. No matter how you twist it you cannot get the interpretation and its result out of it; Aisha and Ali in hell fire.

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11 hours ago, Faruk said:

And how do you know this was really the case?

The Prophet has been sent as mercy to the mankind that he had shown this mercy in his life on many occasions and even at the occasion of conquest of Makkah. These are recorded in history of Islam.

As far as the life of Aisha is concerned with the Prophet there are many incidents when she had gone against the Prophet sayings in his life or shown a behavior that was not appropriate of her being a wife of the Prophet saw.  History has many evidences.The hadith of barking of dogs of Hawab is also there to show that she had gone against the Prophet sayings when moving towards battle of Jamal.

I have shown the evidence in the light of verses of Qur'an and her actions in the last post without any my own interpretation. The link is given below:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235062502-Aisha-and-hafsa/?do=findComment&comment=3220587

I do have the right to ask the evidence  in order to verify your assumption that if this was not the case that the Prophet tolerated and  neglected  her actions, based on the verses of Qur'an and sayings of the Prophet..

11 hours ago, Faruk said:

We should not delve into intentions as this is a forbidden area. That's a basic principle in Islamic jurisprudence when it comes to penal matters.

I agree to the extent that truth should not be kept hidden just for face saving of the persons who went against the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his purified Ahl aabayt (عليه السلام).

Edited by Muslim2010

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7 hours ago, Aragaia said:

This isn't clear. First of all there are many levels of paradise. Second only the last bit about mercy give the indication that they might go to jahannam. However, if they did we don't know if they will stay there.

thirdly, it is most likely only a way of presentation that the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wassallam) is asked does he not know?

Salam about first there is many levels of Pardise but without drinking from Kauther nobody will enter to Paradise  , about second Prophet Muhmmad (pbu) clearly said every innovator will be forever  in hell  & they bring change (innovation) to religion ,about third is like as said in Qur'an that Prophet Mummad (pbu) wasn't present at time of other Prophets but Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) informs him about them also always one of progeny of Prophet Muhmmad (pbu) as twelve Imams is on Earth until judgment day so at least one of them informs him about their innovation & breaking their oath.

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2 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Who is considered a hypocrite? 

عن عليّ رضي الله عنه قال: والّذي فلق الحبّة وبرأ النّسمة إنّه لعهد النّبيّ الأمّيّ صلى الله عليه وسلم إلىّ أن لا يحبّني إلاّ مؤمن، ولا يبغضني إلاّ منافق‏.

(Narrated) from ‘Ali radiya Llahu ‘anhu who said, “By Him Who split up the grain and created life, the unlettered Prophet’s salla Llahu ‘alayhi wa sallam promise to me was that no one except a believer would love me, and no one except a munafiq (hypocrite) would dislike me.”[1] Sahih Muslim, hadith no. 78.

 

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

عن عليّ رضي الله عنه قال: والّذي فلق الحبّة وبرأ النّسمة إنّه لعهد النّبيّ الأمّيّ صلى الله عليه وسلم إلىّ أن لا يحبّني إلاّ مؤمن، ولا يبغضني إلاّ منافق‏.

(Narrated) from ‘Ali radiya Llahu ‘anhu who said, “By Him Who split up the grain and created life, the unlettered Prophet’s salla Llahu ‘alayhi wa sallam promise to me was that no one except a believer would love me, and no one except a munafiq (hypocrite) would dislike me.”[1] Sahih Muslim, hadith no. 78.

 

Are you saying a hypocrite is someone who dislikes the Prophet?

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6 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

Are you saying a hypocrite is someone who dislikes the Prophet?

The hadith is referring to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). But for your answer, a person who call himself a Muslim and dislike the Prophet (saws) is Munafiq.

Edited by Abu Nur

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عن علي، قال لقد عهد إلي النبي الأمي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه لا يحبك إلا مؤمن، ولا يبغضك إلا منافق

Narrated 'Ali: The Prophet (ﷺ) - the Unlettered Prophet - exhorted me (saying): 'None loves you except a believer and none hates you except a hypocrite.'

— Jami at-Tirmidhi, Chapters on Virtues, The Virtues of Ali - (sunnah.com) ; (Darrussalam 3736)

قال علي: والله إنه مما عهد إلي رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - أنه لا يبغضني إلا منافق، ولا يحبني إلا مؤمن

'Ali (رضي الله عنه) said: By Allah, one of the things that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) promised me was that no one would hate me except a hypocrite and no one would love me except a believer.

— Musnad Ahmad, Musnad Ali Bin Abi Talib - (Darussalam 642, 731 , 1062)

Edited by Abu Nur

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16 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

The hadith is referring to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). But for your answer, a person who call himself a Muslim and dislike the Prophet (saws) is Munafiq.

He said that about himself? :shock:

That's like breaching copyrights.

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6 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

He said that about himself? :shock:

That's like breaching copyrights.

'Ali (رضي الله عنه) said: By Allah, one of the things that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) promised me was that no one would hate me except a hypocrite and no one would love me except a believer.

- It is clear that The Prophet (saws) is talking about Imam Ali (عليه السلام). But why do suddenly refer to the Prophet?

Edited by Abu Nur

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43 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

He said that about himself? :shock:

That's like breaching copyrights.

"Copyright ownership gives the owner the exclusive right to use the work" - How come quoting Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is breaching copyrights? Sorry but this was completely irrelevant. 

The whole Bukhari and Muslim will be copyrighted materials if that's what you believe in. I think you don't want to accept this Hadith cause it will prove many of those that Sunni brothers revere as Hypocrites.

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2 hours ago, Guest Neutral said:

"Copyright ownership gives the owner the exclusive right to use the work" - How come quoting Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is breaching copyrights? Sorry but this was completely irrelevant. 

The whole Bukhari and Muslim will be copyrighted materials if that's what you believe in. I think you don't want to accept this Hadith cause it will prove many of those that Sunni brothers revere as Hypocrites.

And copyright didn't exist at the time. I mean the formerly mentioned is what Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wassallam) said of himself. Its silly to think he said it of Ali as well. Not to mention that Ali would say it about himself.

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On 6/11/2019 at 2:20 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Yeah I guess the reply to this would be that Aisha and Hafsa were non-believers in the sense that they  were hypocrites. In reality hypocrites are kafir but since they don't openly do kufr the rules of Islam still apply to them

Applying takfir to the Prophet's wives (sa) is tricky business and we will have to account for it on yawm al-qiyama.

There was an argument that took place after 'Ali won the Battle of Basra in his army, where they claimed they wanted to seize the booty and take the women captives. 'Ali replied they were fighting Muslims so this would not be the case, he even rhetorically asked who would dare take 'Aisha as their share (of booty)?? [Shaykh al-Mufid al-Jamal]

Therefore 'Ali considered them Muslims (at least outwardly) and tried to bring them back to the path as a matter of Islamic duty. 'Aisha did seem to show remorse and did later speak out against incidents like Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan killing Hujr ibn 'Adi etc. We should adopt the path of 'Ali with regards to people like this, consider them Muslims but not be afraid to point out their faults and unreliaiblity. Ahl al-Sunnah sometimes go to the other extreme glorifying them regardless of what atriocities are committed under the excuse of "itjihad".

Edited by ali47

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24 minutes ago, ali47 said:

Applying takfir to the Prophet's wives (sa) is tricky business and we will have to account for it on yawm al-qiyama.

There was an argument that took place after 'Ali won the Battle of Basra in his army, where they claimed they wanted to seize the booty and take the women captives. 'Ali replied they were fighting Muslims so this would not be the case, he even rhetorically asked who would dare take 'Aisha as their share (of booty)?? [Shaykh al-Mufid al-Jamal]

Therefore 'Ali considered them Muslims (at least outwardly) and tried to bring them back to the path as a matter of Islamic duty. 'Aisha did seem to show remorse and did later speak out against incidents like Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan killing Hujr ibn 'Adi etc. We should adopt the path of 'Ali with regards to people like this, consider them Muslims but not be afraid to point out their faults and unreliaiblity. Ahl al-Sunnah sometimes go to the other extreme glorifying them regardless of what atriocities are committed under the excuse of "itjihad".

That's it. There is a balanced middle-way in approaching the matter. In both parties there are extremities. That's why I am perfectly fine being attached to no sect or creed.

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23 hours ago, Aragaia said:

He said that about himself? :shock:

That's like breaching copyrights.

The following are few examples from Sunni hadith source:

Narrated Aisha: It was one of the favors of Allah towards me that Allah's Apostle expired in my house on the day of my turn while he was leaning against my chest and Allah made my saliva mix with his saliva at his death. 'Abdur-Rahman entered upon me with a Siwak in his hand and I was supporting (the back of) Allah's Apostle (against my chest ). I saw the Prophet looking at it (I.e. Siwak) and I knew that he loved the Siwak, so I said ( to him ), "Shall I take it for you ? " He nodded in agreement. So I took it and it was too stiff for him to use, so I said, "Shall I soften it for you ?" He nodded his approval. So I softened it and he cleaned his teeth with it. In front of him there was a jug or a tin, (The sub-narrator, 'Umar is in doubt as to which was right) containing water. He started dipping his hand in the water and rubbing his face with it, he said, "None has the right to be worshipped except Allah. Death has its agonies." He then lifted his hands (towards the sky) and started saying, "With the highest companion," till he expired and his hand dropped down.

 
Narrated Urwa: 'Aisha said, "Allah's Apostle in his fatal illness, used to ask, 'Where will I be tomorrow? Where will I be tomorrow?", seeking 'Aisha's turn. His wives allowed him to stay wherever he wished. So he stayed at 'Aisha's house till he expired while he was with her." 'Aisha added, "The Prophet expired on the day of my turn in my house and he was taken unto Allah while his head was against my chest and his saliva mixed with my saliva." 'Aisha added, "Abdur-Rahman bin Abu Bakr came in, carrying a Siwak he was cleaning his teeth with. Allah's Apostle looked at it and I said to him, 'O 'AbdurRahman! Give me this Siwak.' So he gave it to me and I cut it, chewed it (it's end) and gave it to Allah's Apostle who cleaned his teeth with it while he was resting against my chest."
 
and Many others
 
Do you consider these as virtues or breach of copy rights claims by statements of Aisha the wife of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?
 
Edited by Muslim2010

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On 6/11/2019 at 9:33 PM, Aragaia said:

I said virging, not childless. But how did they know she was infertile?

Allah let Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wassallam) know about other hypocrites. He would have let him know of a wife. Aisha was his favorite wife.

Aisha, was not his favourite wife, where did you get that from?

It is known that Khadijah (عليه السلام) is the Rasullulah's(sawas) favourite wife and nobody could ever replace her. Whenever he mentioned her infront of Aisha, she would get enraged and start to call her names. 

 

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1 minute ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

Aisha, was not his favourite wife, where did you get that from?

It is known that Khadijah (عليه السلام) is the Rasullulah's(sawas) favourite wife and nobody could ever replace her. Whenever he mentioned her infront of Aisha, she would get enraged and start to call her names. 

 

I meant from the later wive's.

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