Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Guest Enquiry

Bruce Jenner and sex changes

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Guest Enquiry

As we all know, Bruce Jenner had gender reassignment surgery and became a woman, known as Caitlyn. Given Iran actively funds sex change operations and it is allowed in Fiqh, would Shias be committing a sin to speak out against things like this like the other Muslims do, given what he has done is halal? I can't seem to get a definitive answer and people seem to dance around the topic. This is a growing issue and we should not regard it as taboo. How do we in the west deal with this?

maxresdefault.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The surgery in Iran is a means to an end, it is done so that these people can live as the gender they "think" they are, marry someone male and be seen to not be engaging in what the shari'ah law deems as inappropriate behaviour such as dressing as a woman, engaging in premarital sex, sodomy, being gay etc. Gender dysmorphia, which is what transsexuals have, is a mental illness, it is the discomfort in one's own body due to some perceived flaw, in this case their own gender. That flaw is exaggerated or magnified and often a total delusion. 

I do not understand how surgery is the answer, just as I wouldn't see a government building a temple for every schizophrenic who believed themselves to be the Messiah as being the answer. It is simply feeding that delusion. There is therapy that exists, but just like in Britain, I think therapists encourage the person to go for gender reassignment, possibly because there is only so much time, money and resources a mental health organisation can use on someone who is in such a way.

Bruce Jenner lives in a different society that does not expect him to stop dressing like a woman and from doing other acts. It's hard to apply the same thought to him in that sense. 

I am sure people will disagree, I just don't know where this became halal. It's stopping haraam acts by doing invasive surgery which often doesn't stop haraam acts being carried out anyway. Does Azerbaijan carry out such procedures for example, if not, why not if it is halal? Also you see, just like in a documentary on the matter, these men now women end up ostracised by their family (despite transsexualism being halal?) living in groups of other transsexuals doing temporary marriages for money, often several times a day. That's prostitution minus the pimp, is that (making money off mutah in such a disposable way) also halal? 

Bruce Jenner chose to have surgery, with or without therapy (I don't know which), no law in the US said he couldn't be a transvestite or be gay. He obviously had a successful marriage to a woman some time before his surgery and he has not married a man to my understanding, so it was again really about satisfying that delusion of his illness. Perhaps in this fast fix society we fix non-fatal illness too often by chopping bits off and not taking alternative measures.

My response isn't going to popular, but I guess I sit on the other side of the religious fence on this one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, aaaz1618 said:

It's stopping haraam acts by doing invasive surgery which often doesn't stop haraam acts being carried out anyway. Does Azerbaijan carry out such procedures for example, if not, why not if it is halal? Also you see, just like in a documentary on the matter, these men now women end up ostracised by their family (despite transsexualism being halal?) living in groups of other transsexuals doing temporary marriages for money, often several times a day. That's prostitution minus the pimp, is that (making money off mutah in such a disposable way) also halal? 

Salam nobody claims that "invasive surgery  stops haraam"  because it doesn't change way of thinking of people but just clears the path that to be a man or woman with free will that can does sin or doesn't sin but it becomes rewards & punishments in this world & here after as a man or woman that mainly is for this world because Allah knows that we did our actions on which type of personality mindset but for this world we need clarification , Azerbaijan autohrities are very anti Iran & Shias  despite what they show & they prefere coherence with Wahabists &  Salafis   , also what u\you mentioned is not for Mutah but they make  thisact in name of Mutah that like other Shia matters ,Azerbaijani authorities are trying to destroy it by wrong doing in name of Mutah 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

also what u\you mentioned is not for Mutah but they make  thisact in name of Mutah that like other Shia matters ,Azerbaijani authorities are trying to destroy it by wrong doing in name of Mutah 

No, the mutah I mentioned was carried out by transsexuals in Iran not Azerbaijan. I cannot remember which thread had the video link in it, but it seems a practice done by a lot of people to get money. 

Edited by aaaz1618

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Enquiry
38 minutes ago, Laayla said:

Thanks mods for allowing guests to post.   :coffee:  (just steam, no coffee)

#Muslimsfirstworldproblems

#OneDayLeftShaytanReleased

This might be less of a problem for you in Lebanon, but these are issues gripping us here in the west. People are losing faith, and it is high time we address these issues , rather than focus on just what is tahara and what is najasa. Your input would be valuable , and I mean it sincerely given your wisdom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why is this personally relevant to you, @ Guest Enquiry? You should ask your marja about the proper behavior of a Muslim toward people who have had gender reassignment surgery if you need to know, but you might go your entire life and not meet one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Guest Enquiry said:

This might be less of a problem for you in Lebanon, but these are issues gripping us here in the west.

No, it's really not gripping us. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Enquiry
29 minutes ago, notme said:

No, it's really not gripping us. 

In the era of LGBT rights and activism, Trans rights are something that make the headlines frequently, are now taught to school children, and are definitely a very important contemporary issue. 

I behave with respect to everyone, including those who are Trans. What I would like to know is what our approach is, according to Islam, over the issue of transsexuality and whether scholars differ.

Marja's differ wildly on many issues, and a lone Muqalid referring to his Marja isn't going to help us deal with this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since this procedure is halal, I don’t think it’s up to anyone to judge another for choosing gender reassignment surgery. There are plenty of transsexuals who resume normal life and are not ostracized by their families. Families who cut contact with these individuals have not developed empathy to understand such circumstances. Wether it is solely a mental illness, or a combination of both, it doesn’t mean that these issues are not important, and these families also probably think that it’s haram do to a lack of education. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*shrugs*

The rights of transgendered people are the same as anyone else: the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. From an Islamic point of view, we don't need to do anything. If a Muslim follows the advice of his or her marja and gets a gender surgery, we should treat them with the same dignity as anyone else regardless of our own opinions of the fiqh. If a non-Muslim does, it shouldn't change our behavior toward them either.

They probably ought to let a potential spouse know their past, but that's entirely another matter. 

I don't understand your question. What, specifically, are you having difficulty with?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Enquiry
3 minutes ago, notme said:

*shrugs*

The rights of transgendered people are the same as anyone else: the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. From an Islamic point of view, we don't need to do anything. If a Muslim follows the advice of his or her marja and gets a gender surgery, we should treat them with the same dignity as anyone else regardless of our own opinions of the fiqh. If a non-Muslim does, it shouldn't change our behavior toward them either.

They probably ought to let a potential spouse know their past, but that's entirely another matter. 

I don't understand your question. What, specifically, are you having difficulty with?

Everyone should be respected and treated with dignity, I agree. This isn't about abusing trans people. It is more of a theoretical discussion.

My concerns are about the issue of transsexuality. What does Shia Islam have to say, and what are the varying views about the argument Allah has created people in the wrong bodies or are these scholars ruling it based on another principle? 

Remember, scholars give rulings sometimes out of technicality. There are many rulings given which you have expressed disgust to yourself, and which our scholars don't themselves recommend, such as Mutah with escorts/prostitutes being permissible according to some major scholars who make it clear it is still abominable and not recommended by them. One can't deny the toxic harm it would have on a society if people merely followed technicalities without any wider appreciation of the effect of their acts.

Sadiq Shirazi allows self-mutilation of children, which in many western countries would amount to child abuse, the social services being called in, and children being taken in for care. Shia children have appeared in the news and possibly been referred because of this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Enquiry
22 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Since this procedure is halal, I don’t think it’s up to anyone to judge another for choosing gender reassignment surgery. There are plenty of transsexuals who resume normal life and are not ostracized by their families. Families who cut contact with these individuals have not developed empathy to understand such circumstances. Wether it is solely a mental illness, or a combination of both, it doesn’t mean that these issues are not important, and these families also probably think that it’s haram do to a lack of education. 

If a woman married a man, had three kids, and the man decided he was a woman and had gender reassignment surgery, would this be acceptable and ethical in Islam?

If a scholar you respected said he was born this way and had this surgery, would your view change?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we examine the ruling by Ali Khamenei there are prerequisites for the sexchange and it is not a free for all. Khamenei rules that "the end result would be determining of the true sex of the person." This means that the person who undergoes such a surgery must be a "true transsexual," a person born in the wrong body. Khamenei also rules that the second provision is that "it does not lead to the commission of any ḥarām act or a consequent vile deed." In other words it must not legitimize homosexual acts.
It is clear to me that a homosexual can not have a sexchange operation according to the ruling by Ali Khamenei. Whether the Iranian health service does that anyway I don't know. There has been rumors about that in the western press, that homosexuals are given a sexchange in Iran in order to make them "normal." But if that is the case I would say that it is against Ali Khamenei's ruling. Some Iranians has told me that they know of feminine gay men who seek to have a sexchange on their own accord in order to have a better life and be more accepted in society, but they end up regretting and in the worst cases becoming prostitutes. In that case I would say that it is in violation of Khamenei's ruling.

I think that Ayatollah KhameneI's ruling on sexchange is a followup of Imam Khomeini's letter to Maryam Khatoon Molkara granting her the right to sexchange surgery. I think I read somewhere that Molkara argued from an earlier fatwa issued by Imam Khomeini(رضي الله عنه) on the operation of people with intersex condition or hermaphroditism (people born with both genitalia). From this the Imam came to the understanding that a "true transsexual" is a variant of intersex condition, only internal and not external. Therefore making the operation permissible. This is possibly why Ali KhameneI's ruling on sexchange is mentioned right next to his ruling on operation for a hermaphrodite person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Enquiry
4 hours ago, notme said:

*shrugs*

The rights of transgendered people are the same as anyone else: the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. From an Islamic point of view, we don't need to do anything. If a Muslim follows the advice of his or her marja and gets a gender surgery, we should treat them with the same dignity as anyone else regardless of our own opinions of the fiqh. If a non-Muslim does, it shouldn't change our behavior toward them either.

They probably ought to let a potential spouse know their past, but that's entirely another matter. 

I don't understand your question. What, specifically, are you having difficulty with?

If husband and wife decided to get gender reassignment each, and became the opposite gender, would you say we should respect this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, aaaz1618 said:

No, the mutah I mentioned was carried out by transsexuals in Iran not Azerbaijan. I cannot remember which thread had the video link in it, but it seems a practice done by a lot of people to get money. 

I don't hear or read about such thing in Iran even it was happened in Iran I would see it in anti Iranian channels but I don't see such thing until now but I saw that channels like as BBC Persian (Farsi) criticized Iranian merchants in Azerbaijan for practicing mutah there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

Some Iranians has told me that they know of feminine gay men who seek to have a sexchange on their own accord in order to have a better life and be more accepted in society, but they end up regretting and in the worst cases becoming prostitutes. In that case I would say that it is in violation of Khamenei's ruling.

Some says nonsense words but it even not mentioned by anti regime channels because had no proof

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I don't hear or read about such thing in Iran even it was happened in Iran I would see it in anti Iranian channels but I don't see such thing until now but I saw that channels like as BBC Persian (Farsi) criticized Iranian merchants in Azerbaijan for practicing mutah there.

The documentary was by Tanaz Eshaghian, it was called Be Like Others and focuses on a few people going to the Mirdamad Centre in Tehran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Guest Enquiry said:

If husband and wife decided to get gender reassignment each, and became the opposite gender, would you say we should respect this?

Haha!

I haven't studied the rulings or the Iranian law, but it's their business, not mine. Why shouldn't I "respect" it, whatever that means?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone who thinks ‘gender reassignment surgery’ should be allowed has lost their mind. From what I understand, although this could be wrong, scholars allow operations in the case of intersex people (also known as hermaphrodites), which is a completely different situation to attempting to turn a biological male into a female (or vice-versa). That’s not to say that this doesn’t also go on in Iran, but it may not be what most scholars are talking about when they allow certain operations.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, and those who suffer for it deserve sympathy, but mental illnesses aren’t cured by physical surgeries. You can make a man look like a woman, but that person still knows they aren’t really a woman.

What’s sad to see are these Shias who are so happy to join in aspects of the moral revolution currently going on in the West by claiming that Islam is pro transgenderism. Why would you want anything to do with this insanity?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Enquiry
8 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Anyone who thinks ‘gender reassignment surgery’ should be allowed has lost their mind. From what I understand, although this could be wrong, scholars allow operations in the case of intersex people (also known as hermaphrodites), which is a completely different situation to attempting to turn a biological male into a female (or vice-versa). That’s not to say that this doesn’t also go on in Iran, but it may not be what most scholars are talking about when they allow certain operations.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, and those who suffer for it deserve sympathy, but mental illnesses aren’t cured by physical surgeries. You can make a man look like a woman, but that person still knows they aren’t really a woman.

What’s sad to see are these Shias who are so happy to join in aspects of the moral revolution currently going on in the West by claiming that Islam is pro transgenderism. Why would you want anything to do with this insanity?

If Allah can create people with the wrong sexual organs, wrong hormonal profiles (which you don't see externally necessarily), extra or fewer chromosomes, why can't he also cause wrong sexual development and maturation of the brain, considered by the scientific community as the most important sex organ? 

I don't deny many go through this and might have what you say, but can you rule out some people have the wrong brains in the wrong bodies?

Did Bruce Jenner do anything wrong according to most Shia Ulema? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Guest Enquiry said:

If Allah can create people with the wrong sexual organs, wrong hormonal profiles (which you don't see externally necessarily), extra or fewer chromosomes, why can't he also cause wrong sexual development and maturation of the brain, considered by the scientific community as the most important sex organ? 

I’m not saying it’s not possible, although it would seem strange to me that every element of a person’s body could be male apart from the brain. In any case, all of this is purely hypothetical, since to my knowledge scientists haven’t objectively demonstrated that such a phenomenon actually occurs.

10 minutes ago, Guest Enquiry said:

I don't deny many go through this and might have what you say, but can you rule out some people have the wrong brains in the wrong bodies?

What difference does it make whether I can rule it out or not? You don’t decide what should be allowed based on theoretical possibilities. And even if it is actually true, it doesn’t follow that the solution to this is hormone and plastic surgery, which only superficially address the problem. The body might look a little more like how the person ‘feels’, but it’s only window dressing, and there are still going to be thousands of little reminders that they don’t actually have the ‘correct’ body, which will still contribute to their mental distress. This may be why there are such massive rates of suicide among post-operative transsexuals. They probably thought surgery would be the solution to their problems, only to find that  it didn’t really address the fundamental issue.

10 minutes ago, Guest Enquiry said:

Did Bruce Jenner do anything wrong according to most Shia Ulema? 

I can’t really say that I care, since I don’t outsource my brain and morals to scholars. For what it’s worth, I doubt anyone has asked them, but I find it hard to believe that any self-respecting scholar could actually believe that a man who has been married three times and has had six children, is in reality a woman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Enquiry
1 minute ago, Haydar Husayn said:

but I find it hard to believe that any self-respecting scholar could actually believe that a man who has been married three times and has had six children, is in reality a woman.

Isn't the idea many or most Shia ulema have gone catastrophically wrong on this issue more frightening than the sex changes themselves?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Guest Enquiry said:

Isn't the idea many or most Shia ulema have gone catastrophically wrong on this issue more frightening than the sex changes themselves?

Have they?

Though to be honest, I have no fear of sex changes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Enquiry
Just now, notme said:

Have they?

Though to be honest, I have no fear of sex changes. 

Well I don't argue they have. I would rather sex changes than most scholars making an error on this level. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Guest Enquiry said:

Isn't the idea many or most Shia ulema have gone catastrophically wrong on this issue more frightening than the sex changes themselves?

Do you have any direct evidence that they allow sex changes in the case of people suffering from gender dysphoria?

But to answer your question, I reconciled myself to the idea that most scholars have done wrong on some fundamental issues a long time ago. So no, it wouldn’t really bother me even if I found out that they did allow this surgery.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Enquiry
2 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Do you have any direct evidence that they allow sex changes in the case of people suffering from gender dysphoria?

But to answer your question, I reconciled myself to the idea that most scholars have done wrong on some fundamental issues a long time ago. So no, it wouldn’t really bother me even if I found out that they did allow this surgery.

The problem is, how can we tell? How can they tell in Iran? I would refer to Revert's post on page 1 for references to direct evidence.

In terms of reconciling yourself, what did it cost?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Guest Enquiry said:

This might be less of a problem for you in Lebanon, but these are issues gripping us here in the west. People are losing faith, and it is high time we address these issues , rather than focus on just what is tahara and what is najasa. Your input would be valuable , and I mean it sincerely given your wisdom.

Brother/Sister Enquiry,

I can't agree with you when you say I have wisdom.  I just have a vision, and that is to see my Imam in my lifetime.  The corruption, the irreligious, the injustice, oppression and mass killings of innocent people is hounding the 98% of the world population.  We are tired and frustrated, however we are hopeful.  The hope that we wait for our Imam to come and save us from the tyranny, the corrupted rulers, and the injustices surrounding us across the spectrum.

Just look at the couple pages of ShiaChat.  We have family problems, we have Sunni/Shia divisions, conflict and war, we have sexual topics about fap, porn, zina and much more.

What is gripping the community is not sex changes.  Just because these topics are used around the media, entertainment, and bring interest among curious minds it is just a distraction.

What are the real issues Enquiry?   How much are the youth holding on to their faith?  Why are the masjids empty and the coffee houses/bars/clubs/entertainment venues full of the Muslim youth and praying 5 minutes is a burden?  BTW, please don't mock purity and impurity, these are essential for salat and your spirituality.  

Can't you see the environment around you, that religion is irrelevant and shirk or the replacement of God to the love of the dunya is in the hearts and minds of the Muslimeen?    They are encompassed by the vices of their society, that they have no idea what is happening around the world.   

While here at home we are suffering from the soft war and economic war, what are the issues American Muslims are going through? I'm asking, I want you to think and address these issues.   The first thing in order to find a solution is addressing the problem. Bruce Jenner is the least of your issues brother/sister.

God keep us steadfast on His path.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Guest Enquiry said:

Did Bruce Jenner do anything wrong according to most Shia Ulema

If she was really was feeling that is a woman doesn't make anything wrong  

Maybe on see circumstances he had to be a husband but after a while can't hold his ground & changed to her reality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Enquiry
3 hours ago, Laayla said:

Brother/Sister Enquiry,

I can't agree with you when you say I have wisdom.  I just have a vision, and that is to see my Imam in my lifetime.  The corruption, the irreligious, the injustice, oppression and mass killings of innocent people is hounding the 98% of the world population.  We are tired and frustrated, however we are hopeful.  The hope that we wait for our Imam to come and save us from the tyranny, the corrupted rulers, and the injustices surrounding us across the spectrum.

Just look at the couple pages of ShiaChat.  We have family problems, we have Sunni/Shia divisions, conflict and war, we have sexual topics about fap, porn, zina and much more.

What is gripping the community is not sex changes.  Just because these topics are used around the media, entertainment, and bring interest among curious minds it is just a distraction.

What are the real issues Enquiry?   How much are the youth holding on to their faith?  Why are the masjids empty and the coffee houses/bars/clubs/entertainment venues full of the Muslim youth and praying 5 minutes is a burden?  BTW, please don't mock purity and impurity, these are essential for salat and your spirituality.  

Can't you see the environment around you, that religion is irrelevant and shirk or the replacement of God to the love of the dunya is in the hearts and minds of the Muslimeen?    They are encompassed by the vices of their society, that they have no idea what is happening around the world.   

While here at home we are suffering from the soft war and economic war, what are the issues American Muslims are going through? I'm asking, I want you to think and address these issues.   The first thing in order to find a solution is addressing the problem. Bruce Jenner is the least of your issues brother/sister.

God keep us steadfast on His path.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

 

W/S respected sister, thank you very much for your enlightening post.

I take on board what you are saying and in large part, you are probably right in terms of priorities, but so many of the youth are now becoming doubtful of religion because of things like LGBT and how it confuses them. They live double lives, so they throw religion into the water and go overboard. What can be done about this? Religion is now considered a joke to most.

Look at Lubnan. You have good people, great awareness about the Taghut of the world, but many of your women are pretty secular.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...