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Jasmin J

Its Ramadan and I have woken up very very thirsty and have a very bad heachache. I have a full day of work ahead of me which involves alot of physical activity and I fear that I may pass out.

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Its still early in the morning and there is 12 more hours and a half left to fast, but I’m leaving to go to work soon and will be there for most of the day. I already feel faint and because of the physical activity at work, I fear that I will pass out. Is this a valid enough reason to drink some water and break my fast without having to to kaffarah? Can I just fast it qatha?

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2 hours ago, Jasmin J said:

I already feel faint and because of the physical activity at work, I fear that I will pass out

Can you take time off from work and go home? 

If you fear you might collapse,in this situation you can drink only what is necessary and hold your fast for the rest of the day, but also make up for this fast after Ramadhan.

[Edit] the above is according to Ayatullah Sistani's ruling.

Edited by starlight

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Guest Ahle
19 minutes ago, starlight said:

If you fear you might collapse,in this situation you can drink only what is necessary and hold your fast for the rest of the day, but also make up for this fast after Ramadhan.

 

Isn't that a little bit dangerous, to push yourself to the point where you have threatened your own health enough to collapse? To even get to that point, you have to seriously neglect your health and the warning signs that your body needs nutrition.

On another note, once you have taken a sip of water, is the fast not already broken? Is the advice to only drink what is necessary and hold the fast an optional one based on mustahab precaution, rather than anything binding? @Ibn al-Hussain Could you help us here brother?

Thank you. I am asking on behalf of some family who find fasting 21 hours (compared to the eleven hours Australians fast) , on top of a full time taxing job, and pre-existing health problems which don't exclude them from fasting but make it very difficult. 

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Guest Ahle

For Shirazi followers breaking their fasts three or four hours before the rest of Sistani followers in the United Kingdom, can anyone explain how this is fair, when we have users like in the OP whose livelihood and physical well being is affected on account of rulings to only break the fast when you are at the point of collapse?

 

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2 hours ago, Jasmin J said:

Its still early in the morning and there is 12 more hours and a half left to fast, but I’m leaving to go to work soon and will be there for most of the day. I already feel faint and because of the physical activity at work, I fear that I will pass out. Is this a valid enough reason to drink some water and break my fast without having to to kaffarah? Can I just fast it qatha?

I don't know what type of religion I'm following if it doesn't allow you to break your fast in this situation. 

Which type of God will watch his servant faint while carrying out the obligatory act. 

The purpose of fasting is not to feel ill or make you faint but to become more spiritual and closer to God. 

This is not a personal attack on you. But some people need to use their common sense and reasoning. The life we live today is amazingly different to the life when fasting was first introduced. Everyone would've been much more understanding as they knew that their brothers and sisters were fasting, work would've slowed down and if you needed rest you could rest. Now there's none of that, no one is understanding and no one cares you are expected to do the same as those who don't fast. 

How, how can God punish someone for going about their daily lives in 2019 which will cause fasting to be unbearable on some days? On some days there are big responsibilities and things at stake which we must tend to, but we cannot abandon these otherwise jobs will be lost money will be taken because they don't care. They can just replace us like that. 

If you are looking at the rulings of Ayatollahs with all due respect to them it's unlikely that they will understand your situation as they are usually living in Islamic countries where there is mutual respect during Ramadan there. Where is the respect for the Muslims in the west? 

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10 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

I don't know what type of religion I'm following if it doesn't allow you to break your fast in this situation. 

Which type of God will watch his servant faint while carrying out the obligatory act. 

Totally agree, but such sentiment is often shot down by some I think. I'm not just talking about people here, but generally speaking we seem to have a loud and vocal minority of people in our community that makes religion very harsh and soulless.

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16 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

How, how can God punish someone for going about their daily lives in 2019 which will cause fasting to be unbearable on some days?

Calm down. Allah isn't punishing anyone here. Your saying so implies Allah is unjust which he isn't. The person can break the fast to drink water if things are serious and there is no kaffarah, just Qadha.

I didn't quite get your reference to 2019. Allah's laws aren't meant for 1909 or 2009 or 2019. 

Another thing, religion isn't supposed to be modified to fit our lifestyles, our lifestyles should be moulded to revolve around religion.

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Guest Ahle
1 minute ago, starlight said:

Calm down. Allah isn't punishing anyone here. Your saying so implies Allah is unjust which he isn't. The person can break the fast to drink water if things are serious and there is no kaffarah, just Qadha.

I didn't quite get your reference to 2019. Allah's laws aren't meant for 1909 or 2009 or 2019. 

Another thing, religion isn't supposed to be modified to fit our lifestyles, our lifestyles should be moulded to revolve around religion.

What do you mean by Allah's laws, if I may ask? The scholars differ on fasting, and so it is probably best to say subjective interpretations of what they have ruled is Allah's law. Sayed Shirazi for example, tells his followers who fast long hours in Europe to follow Kerbala, and there are other scholars with similar rulings. I don't follow or accept rulings like that, but many Shirazi followers break their fast two or three hours before the rest of us in Europe - depending on how long the fast is, which where I am, finishes around 10pm at night.  As Shias, we fast 15 minutes longer than Sunnis and start earlier too. If one is at the mosque, this means adding another half an hour to pray the combined prayer, which often leads to breaking the fast 1-1.5 hours later.

Kamal Hayderi, Makarem Shirazi etc I believe (someone needs to double check) say something similar. 

There may also be a case made if fasting is going to deplete ones energy to such an extent, they aren't able to function at work.

While religion is not meant to revolve around our lifestyles, there are plenty of rulings which make for allowances for people who will face hardship. We find that all over Fiqh, and I have cited examples here.

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Guest Ahle

Australians will be fasting about twelve hours this year.

Those in Northern Europe about 21 hours.

Those who follow Shirazi about 2-3 hours less in the same geographical region in Europe based on 'follow your marja'.

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3 minutes ago, Guest Ahle said:

While religion is not meant to revolve around our lifestyles,

I would disagree but let's not derail the OP's thread anynore. You can start a separate thread if you want.

3 minutes ago, Guest Ahle said:

What do you mean by Allah's laws, if I may ask

Religious rulings,fiqhi principles which are revised but the core remains the same. 

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3 hours ago, Jasmin J said:

Its still early in the morning and there is 12 more hours and a half left to fast, but I’m leaving to go to work soon and will be there for most of the day. I already feel faint and because of the physical activity at work, I fear that I will pass out. Is this a valid enough reason to drink some water and break my fast without having to to kaffarah? Can I just fast it qatha?

Answer: He who fears for himself of falling ill as a result of fasting is not required to fast. Nor is he who believes that fasting would worsen his poor state of health in any way, be it hampering his recovery or increasing his pain. This should, however, be commensurate with what is generally accepted in these circumstances. If he fears that fasting might be harmful to him, it is permissible to break his fast. And if his illness continues until the next Ramadhan, Qadha is not obligatory but he should give 750 grams of food (wheat, flour or bread or any kind of food) for each day to poor Shiites. If he recovers within the same year, only Qadha is obligatory on him and he will not have to pay kaffara. As for a patient whose health is not affected by fasting, he must fast and his fasting is in order.

https://www.Sistani.org/english/qa/02655/

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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2 hours ago, starlight said:

Calm down. Allah isn't punishing anyone here. Your saying so implies Allah is unjust which he isn't. The person can break the fast to drink water if things are serious and there is no kaffarah, just Qadha.

I didn't quite get your reference to 2019. Allah's laws aren't meant for 1909 or 2009 or 2019. 

Another thing, religion isn't supposed to be modified to fit our lifestyles, our lifestyles should be moulded to revolve around religion.

In 2019, life is more different than ever. In the past 50 years the world has changed to be unrecognisable and demands in the west are increasing for everyone. Here we are just a tiny dot in a population of millions, it sounds harsh but where I live everyone is nothing. If you are dysfunctional, you step out of line or you are not working hard enough, you will be let go and replaced instantly. So we have to work hard for our lives. It makes it hard to do things. I saw a message sometime ago it read:

"If you die in your workplace then by the time of your funeral you would have already been replaced." 

Harsh I know. 

So for your other interesting point about about molding our lifestyles to fit with religion. I completely agree religion is life and life is religion. Religion is our whole purpose here on Earth. And believe me I have pondered on this several times.. Living in the west the religion is hard to practice, there is evil left right and centre. People will never know the years of abuse I went through in school just for being a Muslim. The bane of me was my own appearance. Let's just say the girls at my school thought anything is acceptable, they had no shame or dignity but they just didn't care. I was approached many times. I would just be silent but they knew there was nothing wrong with me (regarding mental health) as I would speak normally to everyone else. But eventually thanks to God they just stopped. Anyway that is one of the struggles here.

So back to your point, while I appreciate the  education, medical care and safety in the west. I must ask myself if religion is life and life is religion, should I leave? That would be molding my life wouldn't it? In Iran the lifestyle there is definitely suited to Islam. But it would be so hard to leave here after all these years. What can I do... :worried:

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@Ali~J I don't live in the west but there are many others here who do. InshAllah if you ask for advice,I am sure you will find plenty of brothers and sisters willing to help you. 

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Quote

Living in the west the religion is hard to practice, there is evil left right and centre.

I have been living almost all my life in west and I have been there in the state of heedlessness, causing nothing but problems. But the moment I turned to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sincerely and started following his commandments and repent to him, the religion of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) turned nothing but ease to practice here in West.

"Allah intends for you ease, and does not want to make things difficult for you" [Qur'an 2:185]; and "Allah does not want to place you in difficulty" [Qur'an 5:6].

So it is us who place ourselves in difficulty and it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who will turn everything to ease.

Edited by Abu Nur

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Imam Khamenei:

Q: I am a laborer employed at Mahshahr; I work under terrible conditions with the weather being around 45 degrees Celsius and the nature of our work being awfully heavy. Fasting under such circumstances is extremely difficult for me such that it is taking its toll on my work and there's a chance I may be sacked as a result. Please guide me as to what I ought to do.
A: Assuming fasting will cause you harm or its toleration be accompanied with extreme difficulties, breaking one’s fast is permissible; otherwise, abandoning one’s fasting due to the presence of only some (non-extreme) excuses is not permissible.

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Guest theObserver
12 hours ago, Jasmin J said:

Its still early in the morning and there is 12 more hours and a half left to fast, but I’m leaving to go to work soon and will be there for most of the day. I already feel faint and because of the physical activity at work, I fear that I will pass out. Is this a valid enough reason to drink some water and break my fast without having to to kaffarah? Can I just fast it qatha?

you ONLY think that you can handle it, but the truth is YOU can unless you have an actual serious health issue in which case u don’t need to fast 

the days u fats which are DIFFICULT are the best days to fast 

there is a hadith about Maryaam((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) that she used to FAST the LONGEST and most HOTTEST days intentionally cause they have the BEST rewards, and do remember that this was BEFORE Prophet Muhmmad((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) when fasting was made compulsory 

if your healthy and normal (not old age etc) you have no issues with fasting and you CAN DO IT , think of the Nike motto all day

fasting was meant to be difficult and meant to be felt its thirst and hunger

think of the Prophets((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) time when people were living on the equator line the hottest weather was upon them, and they had a scarcity on water nevertheless

they didnt have cars, and few could afford horses and camels , most of their work was physical work carrying things and buildings in that hot desert with long days and no guarantee at the end of the day they will be properly able to satisfy their trhirst

last think of Karabala, think of Imam Hussein and dedicate this difficult fast to him and for his suffering and pain , and let the tears from your eyes quench your lips 

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10 hours ago, Guest Ahle said:

Australians will be fasting about twelve hours this year.

Those in Northern Europe about 21 hours.

Those who follow Shirazi about 2-3 hours less in the same geographical region in Europe based on 'follow your marja'.

First of all, you title maraji’ in respectful ways, they aren’t your lunch mates. Secondly, you keep repeating over and over that “Shirazi followers”, which Shirazi marja’ are you referring to as nearly their entire family constitutes of esteemed scholars, and thirdly I’ve never heard of “Shirazi followers” breaking their fast 2-3 hours before other Shias. I do taqlid to one of the esteemed Grand Ayatollahs of that family, and I’ve never heard of such in my entire life. Any credible and direct proofs that those doing taqlid to “Shirazi” fast hours shorter than other Shias? 

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Guest Ansering
23 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

We don’t do that.

 
يجوز لمسلمي النرويج وغيرهم ممن شاكلهم في وضعهم إن يصوموا على قدر الساعات التي يصومها أهل مكة أو المدينة في حال طول نهارهم وقصر ليلهم أو أن يقدروا باقرب البلاد المعتدلة اليهم وأن يبداوا بالصوم من طلوع الفجر ويفطرون مع ميعاد البلاد التي يقدرون بها من حيث عدد الساعات ولا يتوقفون على غروب الشمس
It is permissible for the Muslims in Norway and others from those who resemble them in their position, that they fast in accordance to the timings which is fasted by the people of Makkah or Madina in the condition for a long day or a short night. Or, they can (fast) according to the nearest city with moderate (timings). They start their fast from Fajr and they break it with the timing of the city which is estimated for it by the number of hours, and they do not need to wait for Sunset
Source:
Khalid `Abd al-Qadir, Min Fiqh al-Awliyaat al-Muslimah, pg. 126
 
 
 

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Guest fatwa
51 minutes ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

First of all, you title maraji’ in respectful ways, they aren’t your lunch mates. Secondly, you keep repeating over and over that “Shirazi followers”, which Shirazi marja’ are you referring to as nearly their entire family constitutes of esteemed scholars, and thirdly I’ve never heard of “Shirazi followers” breaking their fast 2-3 hours before other Shias. I do taqlid to one of the esteemed Grand Ayatollahs of that family, and I’ve never heard of such in my entire life. Any credible and direct proofs that those doing taqlid to “Shirazi” fast hours shorter than other Shias? 

The Shirazi I am referring to - though both well-known ones allow this - is the one that allows self-mutilation (tatbir) as a mustahab act. See my lates post on page 2 where I've posted the Fatwah and the Iraq-Shirazi YouTube channel Imam Hussain 3 TV.

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3 hours ago, Guest fatwa said:

The Shirazi I am referring to - though both well-known ones allow this - is the one that allows self-mutilation (tatbir) as a mustahab act.

From one subject, to another. A lot of maraji’ allow various Azadari rituals, not only the esteemed Grand Ayatollahs of the Shirazi family. Tatbir is nothing new, it has been around since generations. I know they ruled it mustahab, I perform it. What this has to do with the Ramadan fasting? 

3 hours ago, Guest fatwa said:

See my lates post on page 2 where I've posted the Fatwah and the Iraq-Shirazi YouTube channel Imam Hussain 3 TV.

I’m not going to spend time looking for things, link the official fatwa from his official office or a designated representative elsewhere who is accredited in announcing such. Not once in my entire life I’ve heard that the esteemed Ayatollahs of the Shirazi family let their muqalids break the fast 3 hours earlier than other Shi’ites, and I’ve studied for longer than half year under the guidance of an alim representative of Ayatollah Sadiq Hussaini Shirazi (may Allah prolong his life). 

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