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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Hey Guys,

I am a biologist and I have studied evolution in depth and I know for a fact it’s real and I also know who CAUSED it. I always give my self DALEEL of a building it’s original cause is the cement , rocks and sand mixture that produces it but it still requires the designer behind a HUMAN to do this so the same logic applies to Universe that even though the causes is Big Bang and evolution the God is the one who is behind all these causes to make them happen to make such beautiful design.

The waswaas that comes to me is that the buildings and universe example is not same as the cause of buildings is not cement water and sands these are just tools but the cause of universe is Big Bang and evolution these aren’t tools that  used these are causes ??? I am getting hella confused help me. 

Whoever answers keep in mind that I am not disbelieving in evolution as Qur'an gives evidence for it and Big Bang. I just want to know is the example of building same as the universe and my brain which is twisted is trying to convince me otherwise ooof HELP ME 

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Guest theObserver
3 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

Hey Guys,

I am a biologist and I have studied evolution in depth and I know for a fact it’s real and I also know who CAUSED it. I always give my self DALEEL of a building it’s original cause is the cement , rocks and sand mixture that produces it but it still requires the designer behind a HUMAN to do this so the same logic applies to Universe that even though the causes is Big Bang and evolution the God is the one who is behind all these causes to make them happen to make such beautiful design.

The waswaas that comes to me is that the buildings and universe example is not same as the cause of buildings is not cement water and sands these are just tools but the cause of universe is Big Bang and evolution these aren’t tools that  used these are causes ??? I am getting hella confused help me. 

Whoever answers keep in mind that I am not disbelieving in evolution as Qur'an gives evidence for it and Big Bang. I just want to know is the example of building same as the universe and my brain which is twisted is trying to convince me otherwise ooof HELP ME 

Adam was in a place OUTSIDE of Earth when he was created, and only LATER when he "sinned" was he brought to Earth

so does it make sense to you that Adam((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was created through evolution ON Earth THEN brought to Heaven THEN taught the names of everything THEN taken to another place to experience life with Hawa(Eve) THEN made a mistake and THEN brought to Earth

tell me at which point evolution happened?

you have a choice here my friend, you take the word of Atheists who insist on this theory which still isnt replicated and still has a billion of unanswered questions and problems, was DEVELOPED by  a homosexual agnostic/atheist

and not ONE Prophet in the 124,000 including Adam((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) nor ONE of the Imams spoke about this idea or spoke of anything that coincides with evolution, despite that they had hidden knowledge

so your choice , the atheists which seem to have known more than the Imams who had hidden knowledge, or our religion?

what is so hard to accept that God just created everything as is? He creates the universe from nothing which everyone accepts but yet you have a hard time accepting that he created each individual plant and animals on its own without needing some deformation and offshoot gene to have to go wrong in order for the animal and plant not to fit in that current biological system to then deform into something else that somewhat ends up being perfect as if the deformity knew what kind of environment was coming up in the next 10000 years?

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11 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

The waswaas that comes to me is that the buildings and universe example is not same as the cause of buildings is not cement water and sands these are just tools but the cause of universe is Big Bang and evolution these aren’t tools that  used these are causes ??? I am getting hella confused help me. 

Hold up, so are you confused on the Big Bang or evolution coming into existence?

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Guest Truth1

Darwinian Evolution is fake and not compatible with Islam because Adam (عليه السلام) was created.

Which verse gives evidence of Big Bang? Please don't interpret the verses to your desires that's why we have scholars

 

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8 hours ago, Isaam said:

Hold up, so are you confused on the Big Bang or evolution coming into existence?

Noooo

I am just saying that people who say this whole world is a result of JUST evolution for them is the daleel of saying like a clay pot is made my a  designer as it has design then the world has design also therefore their must be a designer 

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1 hour ago, iCenozoic said:

Sorry, I don't understand the question. What is daleel?

Daleel is proof/evidence

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On 5/26/2019 at 11:04 PM, Guest theObserver said:

Adam was in a place OUTSIDE of Earth when he was created, and only LATER when he "sinned" was he brought to Earth

so does it make sense to you that Adam((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was created through evolution ON Earth THEN brought to Heaven THEN taught the names of everything THEN taken to another place to experience life with Hawa(Eve) THEN made a mistake and THEN brought to Earth

tell me at which point evolution happened?

you have a choice here my friend, you take the word of Atheists who insist on this theory which still isnt replicated and still has a billion of unanswered questions and problems, was DEVELOPED by  a homosexual agnostic/atheist

and not ONE Prophet in the 124,000 including Adam((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) nor ONE of the Imams spoke about this idea or spoke of anything that coincides with evolution, despite that they had hidden knowledge

so your choice , the atheists which seem to have known more than the Imams who had hidden knowledge, or our religion?

what is so hard to accept that God just created everything as is? He creates the universe from nothing which everyone accepts but yet you have a hard time accepting that he created each individual plant and animals on its own without needing some deformation and offshoot gene to have to go wrong in order for the animal and plant not to fit in that current biological system to then deform into something else that somewhat ends up being perfect as if the deformity knew what kind of environment was coming up in the next 10000 years?

I never said that evolution is believed by athiests only.

In fact I am a Muslim biologist myself and my idea regarding evolution has no conflict with Islam at all!  infact I believed in it because of  a Muslim Professor Ehab Abouheif , and Fatima Jackson in their video titled 'Have Muslims misunderstood evolution'.

I never said Allah didn't create what we see in this universe 

My stance is simple He created  100% and by the mechanism of big bang and evolution both mentioned in the Qur'an ;

the heavens and the Earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" 

"Allah has created every animal from water. Of them are some that creep on their bellies, some that walk on two legs, and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills, for truly Allah has power over all things" (24:45).  this is evolution and orginiation in a whole.

I don't wish for any conflict between you and me with all due respect I believe he is the one who made the universe no doubt about it but he is the SAME one who told to reflect and ponder in the book which calls us to put attention to the creation.

 

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On 5/26/2019 at 11:04 PM, Guest theObserver said:

Adam was in a place OUTSIDE of Earth when he was created, and only LATER when he "sinned" was he brought to Earth

so does it make sense to you that Adam((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was created through evolution ON Earth THEN brought to Heaven THEN taught the names of everything THEN taken to another place to experience life with Hawa(Eve) THEN made a mistake and THEN brought to Earth

tell me at which point evolution happened?

you have a choice here my friend, you take the word of Atheists who insist on this theory which still isnt replicated and still has a billion of unanswered questions and problems, was DEVELOPED by  a homosexual agnostic/atheist

and not ONE Prophet in the 124,000 including Adam((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) nor ONE of the Imams spoke about this idea or spoke of anything that coincides with evolution, despite that they had hidden knowledge

so your choice , the atheists which seem to have known more than the Imams who had hidden knowledge, or our religion?

what is so hard to accept that God just created everything as is? He creates the universe from nothing which everyone accepts but yet you have a hard time accepting that he created each individual plant and animals on its own without needing some deformation and offshoot gene to have to go wrong in order for the animal and plant not to fit in that current biological system to then deform into something else that somewhat ends up being perfect as if the deformity knew what kind of environment was coming up in the next 10000 years?

It is not hard at all to accept Allah made everything from nothing NO PROB at all you failed to realise I never disagreed . Why so much hate in your speech? 

And regarding the deformity I never said evolution was on its own ... its God directed!

He is the one who changed the environmental conditions that led to adaptations by the permission of Allah which led to species all BY WILL OF Allah , BY Allah not by themselves at all.

If you can't agree with me don't but it hurts to be associated with an athiest.

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On 5/27/2019 at 3:26 PM, Guest Truth1 said:

Darwinian Evolution is fake and not compatible with Islam because Adam (عليه السلام) was created.

Which verse gives evidence of Big Bang? Please don't interpret the verses to your desires that's why we have scholars

 

https://www.al-Islam.org/authenticity-Qur'an-shaykh-Muslim-bhanji/some-brief-examples-scientific-data-Qur'an#Earth-and-heavens-were-joined-together

I didn't interpret it 

It is clear.....

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On 5/26/2019 at 11:04 PM, Guest theObserver said:

Adam was in a place OUTSIDE of Earth when he was created, and only LATER when he "sinned" was he brought to Earth

so does it make sense to you that Adam((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was created through evolution ON Earth THEN brought to Heaven THEN taught the names of everything THEN taken to another place to experience life with Hawa(Eve) THEN made a mistake and THEN brought to Earth

tell me at which point evolution happened?

you have a choice here my friend, you take the word of Atheists who insist on this theory which still isnt replicated and still has a billion of unanswered questions and problems, was DEVELOPED by  a homosexual agnostic/atheist

and not ONE Prophet in the 124,000 including Adam((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) nor ONE of the Imams spoke about this idea or spoke of anything that coincides with evolution, despite that they had hidden knowledge

so your choice , the atheists which seem to have known more than the Imams who had hidden knowledge, or our religion?

what is so hard to accept that God just created everything as is? He creates the universe from nothing which everyone accepts but yet you have a hard time accepting that he created each individual plant and animals on its own without needing some deformation and offshoot gene to have to go wrong in order for the animal and plant not to fit in that current biological system to then deform into something else that somewhat ends up being perfect as if the deformity knew what kind of environment was coming up in the next 10000 years?

Even if I give you a simple explanation of how Adam ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) fits in this you will still not believe me so there is really no point of me saying anything.

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On 5/26/2019 at 5:56 PM, Noor Taleb said:

Hey Guys,

I am a biologist and I have studied evolution in depth and I know for a fact it’s real and I also know who CAUSED it. I always give my self DALEEL of a building it’s original cause is the cement , rocks and sand mixture that produces it but it still requires the designer behind a HUMAN to do this so the same logic applies to Universe that even though the causes is Big Bang and evolution the God is the one who is behind all these causes to make them happen to make such beautiful design.

The waswaas that comes to me is that the buildings and universe example is not same as the cause of buildings is not cement water and sands these are just tools but the cause of universe is Big Bang and evolution these aren’t tools that  used these are causes ??? I am getting hella confused help me. 

Whoever answers keep in mind that I am not disbelieving in evolution as Qur'an gives evidence for it and Big Bang. I just want to know is the example of building same as the universe and my brain which is twisted is trying to convince me otherwise ooof HELP ME 

Evolution is a process. It does not offer any explanation for the origin of life. It does not challenge the notion of the necessity of an original causer of causes. Believing in evolution is not at odds with Islamic theology (as far as im aware)

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4 minutes ago, Indigo said:

Evolution is a process. It does not offer any explanation for the origin of life. It does not challenge the notion of the necessity of an original causer of causes. Believing in evolution is not at odds with Islamic theology (as far as im aware)

Thank you 

THANK YOU

THANK YOU

THANK YOU

THANK YOU

FINALLY SOMEBODY UNDERSTOOD ME FINALLY!

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On 5/26/2019 at 9:56 PM, Noor Taleb said:

The waswaas that comes to me is that the buildings and universe example is not same as the cause of buildings is not cement water and sands these are just tools but the cause of universe is Big Bang and evolution these aren’t tools that  used these are causes ??? I am getting hella confused help me. 

I cannot understand what is the question ? If you are after Cause then let me tell you Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is the Cause of all Causes. All causes end on Him, when you have reached Him, It is end.

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I suppose you can use any analogy you want to explain the Big Bang. Using your building analogy, the cement and water are like the elements that went into the Big Bang. But who mixed the elements together to make bricks and ultimately the building? Man? However man didn't created cement nor water. Allah did. That's the difference. Allah created the elements and willed them to collide and explode, making the Big Bang. Man could never make a thing without using what Allah had created already.

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Btw since you are a scientist and know so much, can you teach me a few things?

- How did all the laws of science come into being?

- Why is there only 1 template for life in the universe? Who created this template? Like, the first living cell came into being and it is following the same template ever since. No second template came into being. For instance no self aware rocks or machines or water elementals or living clouds came into being, no giant amoeba , no cells with different organs and structure. There is just 1 since the beginning and on 1 planet only? All these possibilities, different templates and novel designs for new kinds of life also had billions of years to bring themselves into existence but they didn't?

- Nikola Tesla says that light, magnetism, electricity, radio waves are all but the same thing in different forms. Why there has not been a magical new energy come into existence on its own? Like, lets call it, unicorn magic. What is stopping it from emerging to complete our lives?

Actually my questions are endless! :(

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On 5/26/2019 at 12:56 PM, Noor Taleb said:

Hey Guys,

I am a biologist and I have studied evolution in depth and I know for a fact it’s real and I also know who CAUSED it. I always give my self DALEEL of a building it’s original cause is the cement , rocks and sand mixture that produces it but it still requires the designer behind a HUMAN to do this so the same logic applies to Universe that even though the causes is Big Bang and evolution the God is the one who is behind all these causes to make them happen to make such beautiful design.

The waswaas that comes to me is that the buildings and universe example is not same as the cause of buildings is not cement water and sands these are just tools but the cause of universe is Big Bang and evolution these aren’t tools that  used these are causes ??? I am getting hella confused help me. 

Whoever answers keep in mind that I am not disbelieving in evolution as Qur'an gives evidence for it and Big Bang. I just want to know is the example of building same as the universe and my brain which is twisted is trying to convince me otherwise ooof HELP ME 

First you misunderstand the way these things work I mean causes and stuff. I recommend watching some lectures on tawhid in usool I deen. If not that go on al Islam.org and read books on usool I deen. Or go on https://www.shiatv.net/ and type tawhid on search box there should be lectures by Sayed Abbas aleyla you don’t have to watch him specifically but he is an option.

your separating the cause from God himself when you use the word tool but if you learn proper tawhid you know that’s not how it works. God is the tool and the tool is God in a sense. It’s like your looking at one side of a disco ball it gets different colors based on the part light is shining on it but it’s one disco ball.  

As for biological evolution I don’t think there is enough evidence to say humans evolved specifically. Humans can be a miracle for example.

Edited by TryHard

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On 5/26/2019 at 12:56 PM, Noor Taleb said:

 

I just want to know is the example of building same as the universe and my brain which is twisted is trying to convince me otherwise ooof HELP ME 

Your Answer:

No.

The builder/building relationship analogy is precisely the kind of example / analogy used in basic introductory texts of Islamic Theology to show what the relationship between the Creator and the created IS NOT.  

The reason given is that the building no longer needs the builder after it has been built.  "Deists" (a term you should look up if you are not already familiar with) would like to use the example of a builder and a building when trying to understand the relationship between God and creation.  They believe that God created the world and that the world is running on its own.  

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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Hi,

Evolution is mentioned in the Qur'an though, at least for the evolution of primitive man into modern day man. I'll recite my verses and take of my understanding what you will. 

_____

-Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay. 32:7
-Then He made his posterity (future generations) out of the extract of a liquid disdained. 32:8
-Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful. 32:9

There is a clear transition here; God creates man, man propagates, THEN he breathes a soul into him. 

_____

-And your Lord said to the angels "I will make a successor on Earth", They said "How can You make [a successor] someone who corrupts and sheds blood while we praise and sanctify You?" He said "I know what you don't know." 2:30

How did the angels know that man will shed blood? They have no insight of the future, and they are not created with rationalizing abilities just as we are. Surely primitive man had already existed then.

______

Here's an interesting one which could be interpreted differently;

[ Allah ] said, "Descend from Paradise - all, [your descendants] being enemies to one another. And if there should come to you guidance from Me - then whoever follows My guidance will neither go astray [in the world] nor suffer [in the Hereafter]. 20:123 

Note that the word here used is "all" or "Jami3an" in Arabic which is plural. You don't use this word when talking to two people and don't tell me that the third person was the devil because the devil doesn't have the ability to enter paradise. SO, either, Adam and Eve's family, were with them, or they weren't in paradise, rather in Eden, heaven on Earth. I believe both to be true.

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Guest Abbas EzZahrawi
On 5/26/2019 at 10:26 PM, Noor Taleb said:

Hey Guys,

I am a biologist and I have studied evolution in depth and I know for a fact it’s real and I also know who CAUSED it. I always give my self DALEEL of a building it’s original cause is the cement , rocks and sand mixture that produces it but it still requires the designer behind a HUMAN to do this so the same logic applies to Universe that even though the causes is Big Bang and evolution the God is the one who is behind all these causes to make them happen to make such beautiful design.

The waswaas that comes to me is that the buildings and universe example is not same as the cause of buildings is not cement water and sands these are just tools but the cause of universe is Big Bang and evolution these aren’t tools that  used these are causes ??? I am getting hella confused help me. 

Whoever answers keep in mind that I am not disbelieving in evolution as Qur'an gives evidence for it and Big Bang. I just want to know is the example of building same as the universe and my brain which is twisted is trying to convince me otherwise ooof HELP ME 

I'm a theoretical physicist with the IOP and a part time hawza student and recent convert to Islam.

If you know Arabic, then I'd really recommend a reading of AlMizan by Allama Tabataba'I, especially the surahs known for verses of creation, evolution, universe etc.

As a next step, try reading نهاية حلم (وهم الإله) لدكتور الشيخ أيمن المصري. It is a remarkable reply to the God Delusion by Dawkins.

My thesis on theology and philosophy is going to be رد الشبهات من الإلحاد حول التحليق so this is really my subject.

Feel free to ask if you need help with reading those or anything else. 

Salam

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I would like to add that most of the people who believe in God in today’s day and age think of God along the lines of Deism (albeit unknowingly).  They tend to draw or imagine a boundary between God and creation, a boundary where God ends and creation begins or a boundary where creation ends and God begins.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 6/28/2019 at 4:52 AM, Darth Vader said:

Btw since you are a scientist and know so much, can you teach me a few things?

- How did all the laws of science come into being?

- Why is there only 1 template for life in the universe? Who created this template? Like, the first living cell came into being and it is following the same template ever since. No second template came into being. For instance no self aware rocks or machines or water elementals or living clouds came into being, no giant amoeba , no cells with different organs and structure. There is just 1 since the beginning and on 1 planet only? All these possibilities, different templates and novel designs for new kinds of life also had billions of years to bring themselves into existence but they didn't?

- Nikola Tesla says that light, magnetism, electricity, radio waves are all but the same thing in different forms. Why there has not been a magical new energy come into existence on its own? Like, lets call it, unicorn magic. What is stopping it from emerging to complete our lives?

Actually my questions are endless! :(

Brother I could argue the fact that we are only one of our type in terms on a planet as well as species among trillions of stars because we are an anamoly in the universe... if there is an intelligent Creator, surely there should be more intelligent life and more planets with life on them? it did take 15 bilion years to get here, we havent been here from the beginning have we? what was the point of dinosaurs? you see this type of logic can swing both ways and its not really an answer one way or the other.

as for the evolution part, do we not share some genetic code with all living creatures?

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one of the issues with the traditional argument implies that the universe was in creation for past 15 billion years and continues to expand... human beings, Adam entered the scene some x years ago, I don't know what x is, lets assume its 300,000 years ago or whatever people want, the number is besides the point.

The question is why and how? God is outside of time and space, creates Adam from Earth's clay in another dimension and then eventually pops him and his wife onto Earth like magic... first of all what timeline is this happening? outside of time? he grabs some Earth from eartly dimension, brings it into his, or makes Adam on Earth then etc.. then God pops them in x years along the development of this universe?

sounds a bit silly... how is this supposed to be better than theory of evolution?

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On 6/29/2019 at 10:29 AM, khamosh21 said:

Brother I could argue the fact that we are only one of our type in terms on a planet as well as species among trillions of stars because we are an anamoly in the universe... if there is an intelligent Creator, surely there should be more intelligent life and more planets with life on them? it did take 15 bilion years to get here, we havent been here from the beginning have we? what was the point of dinosaurs? you see this type of logic can swing both ways and its not really an answer one way or the other.

as for the evolution part, do we not share some genetic code with all living creatures?

Oh? I was expecting a scientific answer. There are no shoulda woulda coulda's in science, only what is and can be proven. So unless you discover life on, say, mars, your argument is welcome but useless when talking scientific fact. Secondly, the point of dinosaurs is there in a book called Tarikh Tabari. It says there existed huge creatures which were created to terraform and shape Earth. Without them there would be no fossil fuel and who knows what else. Perhaps also no phosphorus in soil. And this is rather in accordance with science. Lastly, for your genetic code part you have created a strawman. When did I reject evolution completely? I am only probing the understandings people have of it and the way they know it, with the apparent zealous efforts to patch it and to seek superiority of it, just as if it were another one of those faiths. As if people have merely found a new set of idols, a new pantheon, just as far from completion and just as far from facts. I find that amusing to be very honest. I'm also disappointed that my otherworldly foods for thought seem to have been wasted on people.

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On 6/29/2019 at 6:38 AM, khamosh21 said:

one of the issues with the traditional argument implies that the universe was in creation for past 15 billion years and continues to expand... human beings, Adam entered the scene some x years ago, I don't know what x is, lets assume its 300,000 years ago or whatever people want, the number is besides the point.

The question is why and how? God is outside of time and space, creates Adam from Earth's clay in another dimension and then eventually pops him and his wife onto Earth like magic... first of all what timeline is this happening? outside of time? he grabs some Earth from eartly dimension, brings it into his, or makes Adam on Earth then etc.. then God pops them in x years along the development of this universe?

Almost by definition we aren’t going to be able to understand anything that is outside time and space, so it’s kind of pointless to speculate about these sorts of when/how questions. Why as humans do we make the assumption that we should be capable of understanding everything? We are limited in all sorts of ways but for some reason believe that nothing should be beyond our comprehension.

On 6/29/2019 at 6:38 AM, khamosh21 said:

sounds a bit silly... how is this supposed to be better than theory of evolution?

It’s kind of comparing apples and oranges. Evolution is a naturalistic theory that makes good sense of the data that we have at our disposable. Since scientific theories a priori rule out the supernatural, so there isn’t much point in comparing a scientific theory with something for that lies outside of science’s domain. Any theory that relies on information that can’t be accessed through empirical observation is going to appear ‘silly’ compared to one that relies on hard data, regardless of where the truth lies. Most of modern science would have appeared very silly thousands of years ago. This is without factoring in the issues surrounding interpretation of the Qur’an. How much is to be taken literally and how much is metaphorical? Actually, I don’t see any obvious reason why most of the theory of evolution can’t be accommodated within Islam. The main point of divergence comes with Adam and Eve. According to current scientific understanding (and we should remember that this is always in a state of flux), it would appear that Adam and Eve can’t have existed (at least not at the same time), whereas reading that into the Qur’an would leave out in a position of not being able to take anything in the Qur’an at face value. So it would appear that to accept both the full theory evolution and the Qur’anic account, you need to assume that some sort of miracle took place. This shouldn’t be too much of a problem, expect for those who don’t like to believe that God can intervene at all in creation.

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On 6/29/2019 at 4:32 AM, eThErEaL said:

I would like to add that most of the people who believe in God in today’s day and age think of God along the lines of Deism (albeit unknowingly).  They tend to draw or imagine a boundary between God and creation, a boundary where God ends and creation begins or a boundary where creation ends and God begins.  

Ya got me entirely wrong 

I meant that we are trying to say that if a building is made by a maker then the universe which is so humongous and precise and orderly is also made 

I never ever considered the fact that builder isn’t needed once building is made my focus is on the fact 

made has a maker 

building example was used to explain design 

so chill out brother 

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On 6/28/2019 at 7:03 AM, eThErEaL said:

Your Answer:

No.

The builder/building relationship analogy is precisely the kind of example / analogy used in basic introductory texts of Islamic Theology to show what the relationship between the Creator and the created IS NOT.  

The reason given is that the building no longer needs the builder after it has been built.  "Deists" (a term you should look up if you are not already familiar with) would like to use the example of a builder and a building when trying to understand the relationship between God and creation.  They believe that God created the world and that the world is running on its own.  

 

They believe it I don’t simple

n there  is no need to over complicate things 

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16 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Almost by definition we aren’t going to be able to understand anything that is outside time and space, so it’s kind of pointless to speculate about these sorts of when/how questions. Why as humans do we make the assumption that we should be capable of understanding everything? We are limited in all sorts of ways but for some reason believe that nothing should be beyond our comprehension.

It’s kind of comparing apples and oranges. Evolution is a naturalistic theory that makes good sense of the data that we have at our disposable. Since scientific theories a priori rule out the supernatural, so there isn’t much point in comparing a scientific theory with something for that lies outside of science’s domain. Any theory that relies on information that can’t be accessed through empirical observation is going to appear ‘silly’ compared to one that relies on hard data, regardless of where the truth lies. Most of modern science would have appeared very silly thousands of years ago. This is without factoring in the issues surrounding interpretation of the Qur’an. How much is to be taken literally and how much is metaphorical? Actually, I don’t see any obvious reason why most of the theory of evolution can’t be accommodated within Islam. The main point of divergence comes with Adam and Eve. According to current scientific understanding (and we should remember that this is always in a state of flux), it would appear that Adam and Eve can’t have existed (at least not at the same time), whereas reading that into the Qur’an would leave out in a position of not being able to take anything in the Qur’an at face value. So it would appear that to accept both the full theory evolution and the Qur’anic account, you need to assume that some sort of miracle took place. This shouldn’t be too much of a problem, expect for those who don’t like to believe that God can intervene at all in creation.

Thank you

Thank you

Thank you

Thank you

100% agree

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1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Almost by definition we aren’t going to be able to understand anything that is outside time and space, so it’s kind of pointless to speculate about these sorts of when/how questions. Why as humans do we make the assumption that we should be capable of understanding everything? We are limited in all sorts of ways but for some reason believe that nothing should be beyond our comprehension.

It’s kind of comparing apples and oranges. Evolution is a naturalistic theory that makes good sense of the data that we have at our disposable. Since scientific theories a priori rule out the supernatural, so there isn’t much point in comparing a scientific theory with something for that lies outside of science’s domain. Any theory that relies on information that can’t be accessed through empirical observation is going to appear ‘silly’ compared to one that relies on hard data, regardless of where the truth lies. Most of modern science would have appeared very silly thousands of years ago. This is without factoring in the issues surrounding interpretation of the Qur’an. How much is to be taken literally and how much is metaphorical? Actually, I don’t see any obvious reason why most of the theory of evolution can’t be accommodated within Islam. The main point of divergence comes with Adam and Eve. According to current scientific understanding (and we should remember that this is always in a state of flux), it would appear that Adam and Eve can’t have existed (at least not at the same time), whereas reading that into the Qur’an would leave out in a position of not being able to take anything in the Qur’an at face value. So it would appear that to accept both the full theory evolution and the Qur’anic account, you need to assume that some sort of miracle took place. This shouldn’t be too much of a problem, expect for those who don’t like to believe that God can intervene at all in creation.

science or no science, the story of adam and eve is confusing at best... try going through Tafsir AlMizan of this story and you will see what I mean.

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21 hours ago, Darth Vader said:

Oh? I was expecting a scientific answer. There are no shoulda woulda coulda's in science, only what is and can be proven. So unless you discover life on, say, mars, your argument is welcome but useless when talking scientific fact. Secondly, the point of dinosaurs is there in a book called Tarikh Tabari. It says there existed huge creatures which were created to terraform and shape Earth. Without them there would be no fossil fuel and who knows what else. Perhaps also no phosphorus in soil. And this is rather in accordance with science. Lastly, for your genetic code part you have created a strawman. When did I reject evolution completely? I am only probing the understandings people have of it and the way they know it, with the apparent zealous efforts to patch it and to seek superiority of it, just as if it were another one of those faiths. As if people have merely found a new set of idols, a new pantheon, just as far from completion and just as far from facts. I find that amusing to be very honest. I'm also disappointed that my otherworldly foods for thought seem to have been wasted on people.

not sure what you mean, I am asking a simple question, take it outside of the context of science or even this thread. Sometimes people give the analogy, when asked why God creates, they ask why does a painter paint?

all im asking is how does an intelligent creator only create 1 (at best 3 with angels and jinn which may or may not exist) intelligent creation? to me it appears we are an anomaly in the universe.

the so called "aql" is self defined within your own boundaries... its limited to what you wish to define it as...  how would you objectively prove what intelligence even is? if there is an intelligent creator, His Aql looks nothing like ours, so to even try and compare it makes no sense 

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3 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

not sure what you mean, I am asking a simple question, take it outside of the context of science or even this thread. Sometimes people give the analogy, when asked why God creates, they ask why does a painter paint?

all im asking is how does an intelligent creator only create 1 (at best 3 with angels and jinn which may or may not exist) intelligent creation? to me it appears we are an anomaly in the universe.

the so called "aql" is self defined within your own boundaries... its limited to what you wish to define it as...  how would you objectively prove what intelligence even is? if there is an intelligent creator, His Aql looks nothing like ours, so to even try and compare it makes no sense 

Two things. These are off topic replies. Secondly I asked first so I am under no obligation to reply. If questions are answered with questions then no discussion will take place and only the status quo of confusion will remain and everyone will only waste their time. I hope that is not what you want. If you make a separate thread for your topic I will then try to understand your question and participate. I hope you will understand.

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2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

not sure what you mean, I am asking a simple question, take it outside of the context of science or even this thread. Sometimes people give the analogy, when asked why God creates, they ask why does a painter paint?

all im asking is how does an intelligent creator only create 1 (at best 3 with angels and jinn which may or may not exist) intelligent creation? to me it appears we are an anomaly in the universe.

the so called "aql" is self defined within your own boundaries... its limited to what you wish to define it as...  how would you objectively prove what intelligence even is? if there is an intelligent creator, His Aql looks nothing like ours, so to even try and compare it makes no sense 

Intelligence is intelligence first of all 

and no body is trying to compare Allah’s intelligence to ours secondly 

thirdly we are just saying that if an intelligent human can make robots then how come this entire universe which shows the epitome of intelligence doesn’t have an intelligent being making it and sustaining it and this is no comparison this is to show that we tiny humans with tiny intellect can do wonders imagine what Allah can do and has done which is nothing like ours at all 

Fourthly in Qur'an Allah calls us to make attention to the creation for what does he do that so we compare him and us or for showing us the signs that he is The Who made it as we see so much design and intellect involved in it 

don’t try to over complicate things believe me I’ve done it a lot I have always found myself in doubts because of it and this arguments aren’t mine btw it’s Islam.ORG  

Edited by Noor Taleb

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On 6/28/2019 at 8:30 AM, Guest Abbas EzZahrawi said:

I'm a theoretical physicist with the IOP and a part time hawza student and recent convert to Islam.

If you know Arabic, then I'd really recommend a reading of AlMizan by Allama Tabataba'I, especially the surahs known for verses of creation, evolution, universe etc.

As a next step, try reading نهاية حلم (وهم الإله) لدكتور الشيخ أيمن المصري. It is a remarkable reply to the God Delusion by Dawkins.

My thesis on theology and philosophy is going to be رد الشبهات من الإلحاد حول التحليق so this is really my subject.

Feel free to ask if you need help with reading those or anything else. 

Salam

I would appreciate your help so much brother

The problem is I don’t know Arabic 

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