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In the Name of God بسم الله
Akbar673

Christians getting into Jannah

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8 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

None of what you wrote applies to my faith. I simply said it doesn't hold that only Catholics get into heaven. 

I went to an all boy catholic high school. Brothers of the sacred Heart. Had monks as teachers. Bible studies every day. 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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Nice. I went to the university and obtained an advanced degree. Monks and other grade school educators usually aren't theologians nor church historians nor canon lawyers with Ph.D's in the fields. But some folks in here think they are magically on a par with them due to the fact that they passed 6th grade Sunday School...

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5 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Seems to be the point of Christianity, too. 

Exactly. That's why I understand it when the Qur'an says that the Monotheists who did good deeds are in heaven, provided that they lived prior to receiving the final eternal message of God for all of mankind as recited by Muhammad (2:62). Polytheism is where I get confused...

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I think we need @Ibn al-Hussain in here to sort this out for us.

EDIT: too much theoretical discussion... and the only ruling given was brief and doesn't touch all aspects of the deeply complicated and confusing issue of Shirk

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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8 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Exactly. That's why I understand it when the Qur'an says that the Monotheists who did good deeds are in heaven, provided that they lived prior to receiving the final eternal message of God for all of mankind as recited by Muhammad (2:62). Polytheism is where I get confused...

Sorry....Can't help you too much with polytheists, since, according to me, I'm not one. The folks in this community who would be considered " polytheists"  by a lot of outsiders aren't either, though.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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27 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Nice. I went to the university and obtained an advanced degree. Monks and other grade school educators usually aren't theologians nor church historians nor canon lawyers with Ph.D's in the fields. But some folks in here think they are magically on a par with them due to the fact that they passed 6th grade Sunday School...

I was telling you that not as a reference of my knowledge about Catholicism, but as my only interaction with Catholics. There goes the bonding moment...:confused: maybe I should make another sandwich. 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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24 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

^ I wasn't actually referencing you in my admittedly snide remark.

. Sorry...that was poorly understood on my part.

Have another sandwich. You're probably hungry after today. I'm still recovering from Lent.

Lol,  no problem probably poorly misunderstood on my part. I said to myself while reading “ jeez she’s a sharp one”. Tread lightly lol 

I will mostly likely not eat another sandwich. My stomach actually shrinks during fasting. Just can’t eat as much if I tried. 

I do enjoy lent when it comes around however because it’s the only time food places are seafood heavy. Wendy’s has a tasty fish sandwich they only serve during Lent. 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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44 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

I think we need @Ibn al-Hussain in here to sort this out for us.

EDIT: too much theological discussion... and the only ruling given was brief and doesn't touch all aspects of the deeply complicated and confusing issue of Shirk

Well, discussing the fate of folks of other faiths IS a deeply theological exercise,In my humble opinion. I guess I feel a little entitled to jump in when folks are discussing mine. Lol. Or maybe I'm just getting onery in my old age. I dunno.

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3 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Well, discussing the fate of folks of other faiths IS a deeply theological exercise,In my humble opinion. I guess I feel a little entitled to jump in when folks are discussing mine. Lol. Or maybe I'm just getting onery in my old age. I dunno.

*I meant to write theoretical NOT theological 

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Of course they will go heaven as the verse says (God will of course choose). Because all people who follow the principles of Abraham (عليه السلام) religions which are all same, will enter there, even if they are Christians or Jews. The people of the book after understanding and find similarities in the Qur'an while they reject it is like rejecting their own books, which makes them in their own religion as unbelivers. Chrisitians and Jews should study the Qur'an and they will only find similiarities and guidance like how they found in their books. If they accept them as how they accept their books then there is no reason to reject Muhammad (saws) as Prophet because he is like all other Prophet's too, with same teachings and principles. 

Edited by Abu Nur

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4 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Well, guess I'm going to hell, then. 

I doubt it.

There are statements in the Qur'an both for Jews and Christians, such as 2:62 and 5:69.

These are clearly general statements and in any case, are quite encouraging.

Q. 2:62 Those who believe and Jews, Christians and Sabaeans – whoever (among them) believes in God and the Day of Judgment and acts uprightly, shall have their reward from their Lord. They shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

Q. 5:69 Indeed, believers, Jews, Sabaeans, and Christians – whosoever believes in God and the Last Day and acts aright, there shall be no fear for him nor shall he grieve.f

However, apart from these, we have verses that seem to speak of specific sub-sets of Jews and Christians that Islam came into contact with.

Examples for these are also encouraging, at least, for Christians.

Q. 5:82 Among all men, the fiercest in their hostility to believers are the Jews and the polytheists and the most friendly are the Christians. This is because there are priests and monks among them and they are free of pride.

Q. 5:83 And when they (Christians) hear that which has been sent down to the Apostle, you will see their eyes overflowing with tears at the truth they recognize therein, saying, “Our Lord! we believe, write us down therefore with those who bear witness to it.”

Q. 5:84 And why should we not believe in God, and in the truth which hath come down to us, and crave that our Lord would bring us into Paradise with the just?

Q. 5:85 Therefore God rewarded them for these words with gardens beneath which rivers flow. They shall abide therein forever. This is the reward of the righteous!

The verses are self-explanatory and I shall not try to expand upon them.

I am sure you will get the gist.

 

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16 minutes ago, baqar said:

I doubt it.

There are statements in the Qur'an both for Jews and Christians, such as 2:62 and 5:69.

These are clearly general statements and in any case, are quite encouraging.

Q. 2:62 Those who believe and Jews, Christians and Sabaeans – whoever (among them) believes in God and the Day of Judgment and acts uprightly, shall have their reward from their Lord. They shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

Q. 5:69 Indeed, believers, Jews, Sabaeans, and Christians – whosoever believes in God and the Last Day and acts aright, there shall be no fear for him nor shall he grieve.f

However, apart from these, we have verses that seem to speak of specific sub-sets of Jews and Christians that Islam came into contact with.

Examples for these are also encouraging, at least, for Christians.

Q. 5:82 Among all men, the fiercest in their hostility to believers are the Jews and the polytheists and the most friendly are the Christians. This is because there are priests and monks among them and they are free of pride.

Q. 5:83 And when they (Christians) hear that which has been sent down to the Apostle, you will see their eyes overflowing with tears at the truth they recognize therein, saying, “Our Lord! we believe, write us down therefore with those who bear witness to it.”

Q. 5:84 And why should we not believe in God, and in the truth which hath come down to us, and crave that our Lord would bring us into Paradise with the just?

Q. 5:85 Therefore God rewarded them for these words with gardens beneath which rivers flow. They shall abide therein forever. This is the reward of the righteous!

The verses are self-explanatory and I shall not try to expand upon them.

I am sure you will get the gist.

 

Did you not also forget verses talking about the fact that those who say that people claiming Issa (عليه السلام) is a God are kuffars and the same for those saying God is in reality three persons or a trinity here ? 

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1 hour ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Did you not also forget verses talking about the fact that those who say that people claiming Issa (عليه السلام) is a God are kuffars and the same for those saying God is in reality three persons or a trinity here ? 

So when God promised heaven to Christians in general (2:62, 5:59) or specifically (5:80 - 5:84), did He not know that He had already declared otherwise?

In any case, it is not my business to determine who believes in the right God or in the wrong God.

If someone says that they believe in God, that is it as far as I am concerned and I leave it at that instead of prying further.  

As I have said before, according to verse 13:40 of the Holy Qur'an, it is God's job to take account, not yours and not mine.

Also, it would only make sense that I throw people into hell if I was sure that my own destination would be heaven.

But I am not.

If I am also going to hell for whatever reason, taking comfort from someone else's misfortune will not change anything for me.

If you are so sure that you will end up in heaven, go ahead and drive them into hell as fast as you can. 

As far as I am concerned, God and God alone will be in control on the day of Judgment.

Verse 39:53 also confirms that God can erase one's sins altogether.

The verse clearly talks about ALL human beings, not only Muslims.

So I would rather wait and see rather than make my own declarations that I have no authority to. 

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1 minute ago, baqar said:

So when God promised heaven to Christians in general (2:62, 5:59) or specifically (5:80 - 5:84), did He not know that He had already declared otherwise?

In any case, it is not my business to determine who believes in the right God or in the wrong God.

If someone says that they believe in God, that is it as far as I am concerned and I leave it at that instead of prying further.  

As I have said before, according to verse 13:40 of the Holy Qur'an, it is God's job to take account, not yours and not mine.

Also, it would only make sense that I throw people into hell if I was sure that my own destination would be heaven.

But I am not.

If I am also going to hell for whatever reason, taking comfort from someone else's misfortune will not change anything for me.

If you are so sure that you will end up in heaven, go ahead and drive them into hell as fast as you can. 

As far as I am concerned, God and God alone will be in control on the day of Judgment.

Verse 39:53 also confirms that God can erase one's sins altogether.

The verse clearly talks about ALL human beings, not only Muslims.

So I would rather wait and see rather than make my own declarations that I have no authority to. 

I don’t know if you are a quranist or a Shia Muslim but the Qur'an is not book we take and interpret like we want by taking only few verses out of contexts that we like and rejecting others that we don’t like. Those verses you were talking about were actually talking about people of the book before the revelation of Islam so that don’t talk about people of the book nowadays who know Islam and Muslims.

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12 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

I don’t know if you are a quranist or a Shia Muslim but the Qur'an is not book we take and interpret like we want by taking only few verses out of contexts that we like and rejecting others that we don’t like. Those verses you were talking about were actually talking about people of the book before the revelation of Islam so that don’t talk about people of the book nowadays who know Islam and Muslims.

If you think you are right, keep passing your own judgment.

You don't need to convince me. 

What I believe in is between my God and me and forms the basis of what I have to say.  

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4 hours ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

Lol,  no problem probably poorly misunderstood on my part. I said to myself while reading “ jeez she’s a sharp one”. Tread lightly lol 

I will mostly likely not eat another sandwich. My stomach actually shrinks during fasting. Just can’t eat as much if I tried. 

I do enjoy lent when it comes around however because it’s the only time food places are seafood heavy. Wendy’s has a tasty fish sandwich they only serve during Lent. 

Is the fish fried in lard,or in the same oil with the chicken?  

I hope you are checking and asking  before eating at fast food restaurants. 

#checkifhallal

M3 Salamah, Fe Amin Allah 

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2 hours ago, Laayla said:

Is the fish fried in lard,or in the same oil with the chicken?  

I hope you are checking and asking  before eating at fast food restaurants. 

#checkifhallal

M3 Salamah, Fe Amin Allah 

Alhamdulilah, 

Was Kinda hoping my fish was fried in Lard, and then wrapped with bacon. :eat: just kidding 

Perhaps I should find a single Muslimah sister on here who cares enough about what I’m eating out and ask her for marriage? Perhaps she can cook me home cooked meals instead of me risking my life on these Wendy’s fish sandwiches.  

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10 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

^ Actually mine doesn't think folks of other religions are going to hell. One of the reasons I like it. 

If you don't mind my asking...Catholic ?

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18 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

^ No,but I do know there have been visits to the Vatican by your religious leaders and they talk to each other....probably fairly frequently. Looks interesting.

From a Doctrinal perspective...Catholicism and Shi'a Islam have many parallels.

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4 hours ago, baqar said:

So when God promised heaven to else's misfortune will not change anything for me.

If you are so sure that you will end up in heaven, go ahead and drive them into hell as fast as you can. 

As far as I am concerned, God and God alone will be in control on the day of Judgment.

Verse 39:53 also confirms that God can erase one's sins altogether.

The verse clearly talks about ALL human beings, not only Muslims.

So I would rather wait and see rather than make my own declarations that I have no authority to. 

Alhamdulilah, 

Brother, Allah is very specific in the Qur'an about those who associate others with his oneness. It’s like the main theme to the Qur'an. I’m not sure how you can miss this point actually. It’s repeated several times. Allah says no disbelievers such as those who refused to believe, those who worshipped idols and those who attributed false accusations such God being a man or having partners shall enter Jannah. 

Today’s Christian’s are polytheistic. These Christians say Jesus is God and son of God. This is a great big sin and blasphemy against Allah and his sovereignty as Creator of all creation. 

Does this mean all Christians are going to Hell? No it doesn’t mean that because only God knows the real tawhid believers amongst the Christian order who actually believe in their heart that Allah is one. A lot if so called Christians are only so because of culture. 

But don’t be confused by the great deception. Polytheistic Christians are not the real Christians. Monotheistic Christians are part of the abrahamic order and like Muslims they do not believe Jesus is God or the son of God. 

 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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4 hours ago, baqar said:

If you think you are right, keep passing your own judgment.

You don't need to convince me. 

What I believe in is between my God and me and forms the basis of what I have to say.  

https://www.al-Islam.org/greater-sins-volume-1-ayatullah-Sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/first-greater-sin-shirk

 

Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.” (Surah al-Mā’ida 5:72)

Certainly they disbelieve who say, ‘Surely Allah is the third (person) of Three’; and there is no God but One God.” (Surah al-Mā’ida 5:73)

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8 hours ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

Brother, Allah is very specific in the Qur'an about those who associate others with his oneness.

Yes, brother, you are right.

However, there are lots of other things that God is specific about in the Qur'an.

I will not press my point until the cows come home.

But I will repeat a verse that I have quoted already.

[39:53] Say: O my servants who have acted extravagantly against their own souls. Do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed Allah forgives sins altogether. Surely, He in the Forgiving and the Merciful.

This verse is not addressed to Muslims only but to ALL human beings.

I rest my case. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

But don’t be confused by the great deception. Polytheistic Christians are not the real Christians.

And as I said before, it will be far more useful trying to improve ourselves than talking about others.

God will take care of them.

It is not your business or mine.

Apart from causing hurt to our Christian readers, I doubt if anyone has gained anything out of this futile discussion.

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29 minutes ago, baqar said:

Yes, brother, you are right.

However, there are lots of other things that God is specific about in the Qur'an.

I will not press my point until the cows come home.

But I will repeat a verse that I have quoted already.

[39:53] Say: O my servants who have acted extravagantly against their own souls. Do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed Allah forgives sins altogether. Surely, He in the Forgiving and the Merciful.

This verse is not addressed to Muslims only but to ALL human beings.

I rest my case. 

 

 

Alhamdulilah, 

Brother look, I totally understand you. If there was anyone who wish this was true it would be me as most of my extended family members are Christian or at least pretend to be Christian at times. But Allah is very strict about his oneness. I didn’t write and deliver the Qur'an. It’s Allahs Holy book. 

The verse you are referring to refers to believers who already believe in Allah’s oneness can always be forgiven. Like I said there are Christians who at their core believe in oneness of Allah. Those who willful believe in Jesus as God or son of God are not believers. 

Those who chose to disbelieve in Allah knowing the truth are guaranteed Jahannam in the Qur'an. Allah’s enemies are not his servants. There is no need for Jahannam if what you were saying is true. Jahannam was made for a reason. 

Like the brother said you can’t chose to believe in some verses and not the others. You have to believe in the full Qur'an as it is. I also rest my case. Peace to brother. 

Alhamdulilah, 

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1 hour ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

Those who chose to disbelieve in Allah knowing the truth are guaranteed Jahannam in the Qur'an. 

I never said otherwise.

And you have changed the subject.

However, please read some of the verses I have quoted earlier.

For example, 13:40 and 39:53 and tell me what gives you the right to discuss the wrongs of others, when Allah has reserved that right for himself.

And just answer me this:

Wouldn't it be more useful if you spent that time pondering over your own mistakes and sins instead of that of others?

I think it would.

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1 hour ago, baqar said:

 

Alhamdulilah, 

Quote

And you have changed the subject.

There is no change in subject brother, I don’t steer away from discussion. I will engage you and your questions for as long as you want to learn. 

Quote

For example, 13:40 and 39:53 and tell me what gives you the right to discuss the wrongs of others, when Allah has reserved that right for himself.

Alhamdulilah I read the ayats  brother. As Muslims we are responsible for conveying the truth but Allah does the Reckoning. We have a responsibility to give the truth and the Qur'an is the absolute truth. There is no reckoning taking place here. I posted a very clear verse about the destination of those who associate others with Allah. It addresses the exact question to this thread. Here look at it again. Below..

Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.” (Surah al-Mā’ida 5:72)

Certainly they disbelieve who say, ‘Surely Allah is the third (person) of Three’; and there is no God but One God.” (Surah al-Mā’ida 5:73)

Now look at the name of Topic thread and tell me how have I changed the subject? If you are disputing these verses above then clearly you need to self reflect. The Qur'an is not a book that I wrote. It’s from Allah. I’m not not worried about other believers sins. But clearly you have a problem with some verses compared to others. 

 

 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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55 minutes ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

. I will engage you and your questions for as long as you want to learn. 

That is a pretty arrogant statement.

What gives you the impression that I am trying to learn from you?

Sorry, my friend, I don't have any more time to waste with self-proclaimed teachers. 

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6 minutes ago, baqar said:

That is a pretty arrogant statement.

What gives you the impression that I am trying to learn from you?

Sorry, my friend, I don't have any more time to waste with self-proclaimed teachers. 

Alhamdulilah,

You don’t have to learn from me. You can learn from those two ayats I just posted that are geared towards the original topic of this thread. 

Salaam wa laikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu and enjoy the rest of your Ramadhan brother :)

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3 hours ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

You don’t have to learn from me. You can learn from those two ayats I just posted that are geared towards the original topic of this thread. 

It is a pity that people make assumptions about others when they have absolutely no idea who they are talking to.

That, I think, is monstrously rude. 

It is a greater pity that the Muslim mindset is gravitating to a Muslim only joy in the afterlife, with Shias and Sunnis and all others taking over the best part for themselves   

Well, let us wait and see.

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Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) clearly describe the righteous people of the Book clearly in the following verses:

They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer].

They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous.

And whatever good they do - never will it be removed from them. And Allah is Knowing of the righteous. Qur'an 3:113-115

 

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