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In the Name of God بسم الله
Noor Taleb

God is infinite, but aren’t numbers infinite?

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2 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

God IS  INFINITE RIGHT THEN........

ARENT NUMBERS INFINTE?

My understanding, and I'm a poor mathematician but a semi-acceptable observer, is that numbers are finite and beyond the highest number, we are just dealing with symbolic representations and theories.

A googolplex is finite, beyond the finity of numbers mathematicians use things like Aleph-0, which I know nothing about other than it's not a number, I can't buy Aleph-0 boxes of Barfi and its usage is probably not useful to explain anything beyond theory.

To the human mind, while we like to think of infinite quantities, we cannot comprehend let alone write down what an infinite number looks like without resorting to using something that doesn't even resemble a number anymore. Does the human need to know the existence of 999 duotrigintillion googolplexes? Not really, and such figure has no significance other than comparison and theory. Are 999 duotrigintillion googolplexes even a correct number? I wouldn't know, and most people wouldn't, because we have finite understanding and there is no proof that numbers are infinite, we can theorise, but that wouldn't be answering your question.

So really, according to the realms of the human mind at least, numbers are finite, and I think that suits humans just fine. 

Now, if you'll all excuse me, I need to go count some sheep... One, two, three, fou...

Edited by aaaz1618

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44 minutes ago, aaaz1618 said:

My understanding, and I'm a poor mathematician but a semi-acceptable observer, is that numbers are finite and beyond the highest number, we are just dealing with symbolic representations and theories.

A googolplex is finite, beyond the finity of numbers mathematicians use things like Aleph-0, which I know nothing about other than it's not a number, I can't buy Aleph-0 boxes of Barfi and its usage is probably not useful to explain anything beyond theory.

To the human mind, while we like to think of infinite quantities, we cannot comprehend let alone write down what an infinite number looks like without resorting to using something that doesn't even resemble a number anymore. Does the human need to know the existence of 999 duotrigintillion googolplexes? Not really, and such figure has no significance other than comparison and theory. Are 999 duotrigintillion googolplexes even a correct number? I wouldn't know, and most people wouldn't, because we have finite understanding and there is no proof that numbers are infinite, we can theorise, but that wouldn't be answering your question.

So really, according to the realms of the human mind at least, numbers are finite, and I think that suits humans just fine. 

Now, if you'll all excuse me, I need to go count some sheep... One, two, three, fou...

Thank you so much!

There are people on google literally saying universe is infinite because of some sort of potential Vs actual infinity concept and I did not get anything they said as I am a MATH HATER , so this explanation is way way easier to understand , thank you for making it easy.

God bless 

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2 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

Thank you so much!

There are people on google literally saying universe is infinite because of some sort of potential Vs actual infinity concept and I did not get anything they said as I am a MATH HATER , so this explanation is way way easier to understand , thank you for making it easy.

God bless 

Glad to be of some use!

May Allah bless you too.

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8 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

God IS  INFINITE RIGHT THEN........

ARENT NUMBERS INFINTE?

This is an argument I heard.

1 + 1 = 2 is infinite. We did not invent this, rather we discovered it.

But, in order for this to be infinite, since it is a abstract concept, it must exist in an eternal mind. 

That eternal mind, is the mind of God, the necessary being. 

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt

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8 hours ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

What numbers? What are numbers? Infinite Numbers are a misrepresentation of the unknown or what we can’t understand. Before judgement day every living creation will die leaving only Allah who has always existed. 

Things like time, space, infinite numbers etc, are only relative to humans who are not infinite. Allah’s wisdom goes beyond science and math. He is the creator of science, math, time, space, and everything in between space. 

Beautiful, I couldn't have said it any better!

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15 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

God IS  INFINITE RIGHT THEN........

ARENT NUMBERS INFINTE?

Salam walaikum

Allah created the concept of infinite. Anything used to describe Allah is not Allah it’s just an attribute. 

Nahjul Balagha 

Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking Earth with rocks.

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16 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

God IS  INFINITE RIGHT THEN........

ARENT NUMBERS INFINTE?

God is the Creator of infinity.

Surah An-Nahl, Verse 18:

وَإِن تَعُدُّوا نِعْمَةَ اللَّهِ لَا تُحْصُوهَا إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَغَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

And if you would count Allah's favors, you will not be able to number them; most surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (English - Shakir) 

 

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On 5/21/2019 at 12:43 PM, Syed.Dynasty said:

Salam walaikum

Allah created the concept of infinite. Anything used to describe Allah is not Allah it’s just an attribute. 

Nahjul Balagha 

Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking Earth with rocks.

Thank you for your feedback

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On 5/21/2019 at 1:30 PM, Guest Light said:

God is the Creator of infinity.

Surah An-Nahl, Verse 18:

وَإِن تَعُدُّوا نِعْمَةَ اللَّهِ لَا تُحْصُوهَا إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَغَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

And if you would count Allah's favors, you will not be able to number them; most surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (English - Shakir) 

Thank you so so much !  

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its like if the religion doesnt approve the science or the science doesnt approve the religion, people are ready to discard whatever is the topic like science is the ultimate truth , 

Most of science is theory, and they change their minds every year based on new tests, new discoveries and new evidence. Islam has been linear since the start. 

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8 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

Thank you so so much !  

You're wellcome brother. Just note one more thing I.e., nothing is infinite for God. As the following verse points out:

Surah Maryam, Verse 94:

لَّقَدْ أَحْصَاهُمْ وَعَدَّهُمْ عَدًّا

Certainly He has a comprehensive knowledge of them and He has numbered them a (comprehensive) numbering. (English - Shakir) 

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On 5/21/2019 at 5:47 PM, aaaz1618 said:

Most of science is theory, and they change their minds every year based on new tests, new discoveries and new evidence. Islam has been linear since the start. 

I think you do science a disservice.

Science is a methodology for acquiring knowledge through observation and experimentation. It's not anything other than that. 

For a theory to qualify as scientific, it is expected to meet most, and ideally all, of the following criteria. The fewer criteria are met, the less scientific it is.

Consistent
Parsimonious (sparing in its proposed entities or explanations; see Occam's razor)
Useful (describes and explains observed phenomena, and can be used in a predictive manner)
Empirically testable and falsifiable (potentially confirmable or disprovable by experiment or observation)
Based on multiple observations (often in the form of controlled, repeated experiments)
Correctable and dynamic (modified in the light of observations that do not support it)
Progressive (refines previous theories)
Provisional or tentative (is open to experimental checking, and does not assert certainty)

The difference between science and faith is that scientists are supposed to change their conclusions when new, contradictory evidence is discovered. People of faith are expected to cling to their faith and disregard any contradictory evidence as flawed.

The only thing religion has is faith, and given the number of different faiths, it has been demonstrated as unreliable in discovering the truth when compared to the scientific method.

If a God exists then its purest expression is reality itself.

If the teachings of the faith are God’s revelation of the truth;  Science, the product of human reason, is the search for truth. 
The “correct faith“, therefore, cannot be opposed to “good science” because “truth” is the object of both.  

wslm

*

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2 hours ago, Quisant said:

The difference between science and faith is that scientists are supposed to change their conclusions when new, contradictory evidence is discovered. People of faith are expected to cling to their faith and disregard any contradictory evidence as flawed.

hi , it's not very common every time scientists resisted against new discoveries that many of them were from 20th century until now & after it , we hardly can find a scientist that changes his mind easily even find clear evidence that whole of his life wasted on wrong understanding both science & faith don't have too much difference but media & community are favoring science over faith after Renaissance that so called religious people in Christianity stood against against any new discovery but Islam is more flexible about new discoveries & greatest Muslim scientist directly or indirectly were  benefiting from Shia Imams specially Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) even after inserting new discoveries to replace with it Shia Imams teachings  by Abbasid caliph Mamun , Imam Reza (عليه السلام) & Imams after him fixed errors in those discoveries & changed it to better tools for Islam 

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On 5/21/2019 at 2:26 PM, Noor Taleb said:

God IS  INFINITE RIGHT THEN........

ARENT NUMBERS INFINTE?

"He is not confined by limits, nor counted by numbers" - Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), Nahjul Balagha Sermon 186

"He who describes Him limits Him. He who limits Him numbers Him. He who numbers Him rejects His eternity. He who said "how" sought a description for Him. He who said "where" bounded him. He is the Knower even though there be nothing to be known. He is the Sustainer even though there be nothing to be sustained. He is the Powerful even though there be nothing to be overpowered." - Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), Nahjul Balagha Sermon 152

Edited by HakimPtsid

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On 5/20/2019 at 9:26 PM, Noor Taleb said:

God IS  INFINITE RIGHT THEN........

ARENT NUMBERS INFINTE?

Numbers are good as long as you can count it.  If you cannot  count it manually then a machine can count for us. Let say we start counting and we shall not stop.

How long human or machine can count numbers?  It will be just until before qiamat.The biggest number counted will be on the day before qiamat when the whole universe about to collapse.  No doubt that counted numbers are so big, but it will stop growing on the day of qiamat.  The moment numbers stop growing due to destruction of universe, then it is finite.

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On 5/20/2019 at 10:26 PM, Noor Taleb said:

God IS  INFINITE RIGHT THEN........

ARENT NUMBERS INFINTE?

Numbers are objects of awareness.

anything that is an object of awareness is limited

Therefore numbers are limited.  

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6 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Numbers are objects of awareness.

anything that is an object of awareness is limited

Therefore numbers are limited.  

This. ^

Numbersare a concept, not a thing. 

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@Noor Taleb Imam Ali (عليه السلام) answered your question 1400 years ago. 

From a long tradition narrated in al-Khisal:

A Bedouin (Arab) stood near the Commander of the Faithful Imam Ali (عليه السلام) on the day of the Battle of Jamal and asked, ‘O Commander of the Faithful! Do you say that God is One?’ The people rushed unto him and said, ‘O Bedouin! Don’t you see the condition of the Commander of the Faithful (عليه السلام)? His mind is busy with several matters. It is not the time to ask such questions.’ The Commander of the Faithful (عليه السلام) said, ‘Leave him alone. This Bedouin wants just what we want from this tribe.’

 The Imam (عليه السلام) then said, ‘O Bedouin! There are four meanings implied for ‘God is One.’Two of these implications are not proper for God the Almighty, while the other two hold true. The two implications that are not proper are:

1-To say that ‘He is One’ in the sense of counting in numbers. This is not proper since what has no second cannot be counted in numbers. Don’t you see that whoever says 'God is the third of the three’ is an infidel.

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45 minutes ago, starlight said:

@Noor Taleb Imam Ali (عليه السلام) answered your question 1400 years ago. 

From a long tradition narrated in al-Khisal:

A Bedouin (Arab) stood near the Commander of the Faithful Imam Ali (عليه السلام) on the day of the Battle of Jamal and asked, ‘O Commander of the Faithful! Do you say that God is One?’ The people rushed unto him and said, ‘O Bedouin! Don’t you see the condition of the Commander of the Faithful (عليه السلام)? His mind is busy with several matters. It is not the time to ask such questions.’ The Commander of the Faithful (عليه السلام) said, ‘Leave him alone. This Bedouin wants just what we want from this tribe.’

 The Imam (عليه السلام) then said, ‘O Bedouin! There are four meanings implied for ‘God is One.’Two of these implications are not proper for God the Almighty, while the other two hold true. The two implications that are not proper are:

1-To say that ‘He is One’ in the sense of counting in numbers. This is not proper since what has no second cannot be counted in numbers. Don’t you see that whoever says 'God is the third of the three’ is an infidel.

This is one of the most beautiful traditions, thank you for sharing. An absolute gem of a tradition. 

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4 hours ago, starlight said:

@Noor Taleb Imam Ali (عليه السلام) answered your question 1400 years ago. 

From a long tradition narrated in al-Khisal:

A Bedouin (Arab) stood near the Commander of the Faithful Imam Ali (عليه السلام) on the day of the Battle of Jamal and asked, ‘O Commander of the Faithful! Do you say that God is One?’ The people rushed unto him and said, ‘O Bedouin! Don’t you see the condition of the Commander of the Faithful (عليه السلام)? His mind is busy with several matters. It is not the time to ask such questions.’ The Commander of the Faithful (عليه السلام) said, ‘Leave him alone. This Bedouin wants just what we want from this tribe.’

 The Imam (عليه السلام) then said, ‘O Bedouin! There are four meanings implied for ‘God is One.’Two of these implications are not proper for God the Almighty, while the other two hold true. The two implications that are not proper are:

1-To say that ‘He is One’ in the sense of counting in numbers. This is not proper since what has no second cannot be counted in numbers. Don’t you see that whoever says 'God is the third of the three’ is an infidel.

Thank you I wasn’t being arrogant about it 

just wanted to know 

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