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In the Name of God بسم الله
Noor Taleb

God is infinite, but aren’t numbers infinite?

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7 hours ago, Guest theObserver said:

its like if the religion doesnt approve the science or the science doesnt approve the religion, people are ready to discard whatever is the topic like science is the ultimate truth , 

Most of science is theory, and they change their minds every year based on new tests, new discoveries and new evidence. Islam has been linear since the start. 

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8 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

Thank you so so much !  

You're wellcome brother. Just note one more thing I.e., nothing is infinite for God. As the following verse points out:

Surah Maryam, Verse 94:

لَّقَدْ أَحْصَاهُمْ وَعَدَّهُمْ عَدًّا

Certainly He has a comprehensive knowledge of them and He has numbered them a (comprehensive) numbering. (English - Shakir) 

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8 hours ago, aaaz1618 said:

Most of science is theory, and they change their minds every year based on new tests, new discoveries and new evidence. Islam has been linear since the start. 

I think you do science a disservice.

Science is a methodology for acquiring knowledge through observation and experimentation. It's not anything other than that. 

For a theory to qualify as scientific, it is expected to meet most, and ideally all, of the following criteria. The fewer criteria are met, the less scientific it is.

Consistent
Parsimonious (sparing in its proposed entities or explanations; see Occam's razor)
Useful (describes and explains observed phenomena, and can be used in a predictive manner)
Empirically testable and falsifiable (potentially confirmable or disprovable by experiment or observation)
Based on multiple observations (often in the form of controlled, repeated experiments)
Correctable and dynamic (modified in the light of observations that do not support it)
Progressive (refines previous theories)
Provisional or tentative (is open to experimental checking, and does not assert certainty)

The difference between science and faith is that scientists are supposed to change their conclusions when new, contradictory evidence is discovered. People of faith are expected to cling to their faith and disregard any contradictory evidence as flawed.

The only thing religion has is faith, and given the number of different faiths, it has been demonstrated as unreliable in discovering the truth when compared to the scientific method.

If a God exists then its purest expression is reality itself.

If the teachings of the faith are God’s revelation of the truth;  Science, the product of human reason, is the search for truth. 
The “correct faith“, therefore, cannot be opposed to “good science” because “truth” is the object of both.  

wslm

*


 

Edited by Quisant

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2 hours ago, Quisant said:

The difference between science and faith is that scientists are supposed to change their conclusions when new, contradictory evidence is discovered. People of faith are expected to cling to their faith and disregard any contradictory evidence as flawed.

hi , it's not very common every time scientists resisted against new discoveries that many of them were from 20th century until now & after it , we hardly can find a scientist that changes his mind easily even find clear evidence that whole of his life wasted on wrong understanding both science & faith don't have too much difference but media & community are favoring science over faith after Renaissance that so called religious people in Christianity stood against against any new discovery but Islam is more flexible about new discoveries & greatest Muslim scientist directly or indirectly were  benefiting from Shia Imams specially Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) even after inserting new discoveries to replace with it Shia Imams teachings  by Abbasid caliph Mamun , Imam Reza (عليه السلام) & Imams after him fixed errors in those discoveries & changed it to better tools for Islam 

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3 hours ago, Quisant said:

If a God exists then its purest expression is reality itself.

Al-Haqq 

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On 5/21/2019 at 2:26 PM, Noor Taleb said:

God IS  INFINITE RIGHT THEN........

ARENT NUMBERS INFINTE?

"He is not confined by limits, nor counted by numbers" - Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), Nahjul Balagha Sermon 186

"He who describes Him limits Him. He who limits Him numbers Him. He who numbers Him rejects His eternity. He who said "how" sought a description for Him. He who said "where" bounded him. He is the Knower even though there be nothing to be known. He is the Sustainer even though there be nothing to be sustained. He is the Powerful even though there be nothing to be overpowered." - Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), Nahjul Balagha Sermon 152

Edited by HakimPtsid

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On 5/21/2019 at 10:26 AM, Noor Taleb said:

God IS  INFINITE RIGHT THEN........

ARENT NUMBERS INFINTE?

Numbers are good as long as you can count it.  If you cannot  count it manually then a machine can count for us. Let say we start counting and we shall not stop.

How long human or machine can count numbers?  It will be just until before qiamat.The biggest number counted will be on the day before qiamat when the whole universe about to collapse.  No doubt that counted numbers are so big, but it will stop growing on the day of qiamat.  The moment numbers stop growing due to destruction of universe, then it is finite.

 

  

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Guest theObserver

there is a verse in the ending chapters of the Qur'an(in its current organization) and it says "...the Lord of the even and odd numbers..." so tehcnically numbers or counting is a creation of God that was given to our mental facilities/faculties

if you read al-kafi , even the names of God (names which is our medium to God) were created at some point, they didnt always exist, it is our doorway to Him

so technically if whatever was created(using the principal of philosophy) has a beginning, then it also has an end, hence it is not infinite, just because time(another creation of God) is greater in number than the periods of our life(so if we sat there from the moment of birth {hypothetically speaking} till the end of our lives counting non stop, we wont reach the end of numbers, but even this end of numbers is related to for example the duration of the universe, because if the universe ended, how u going to keep counting and where and what? so technically counting is really taking a measure of the time the system (universe and its mechanism within it(our ability to count) ) continues to run, once either we die or the universe ends(day of judgement) then in reality that is the end of numbers, but only in your referential frame, if however u were created at the moment of the universe creation and allowed to live till the end of universe, then you could technically count the beginning of time and end of time, and hence numbers are not infinite

the only thing that has continued to exist and will continue to exist as we have been told is God, so there is no point u could start counting for His existance and no point you could end counting His existence , hence the only thing infinite is Himself

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On 5/20/2019 at 10:26 PM, Noor Taleb said:

God IS  INFINITE RIGHT THEN........

ARENT NUMBERS INFINTE?

Numbers are objects of awareness.

anything that is an object of awareness is limited

Therefore numbers are limited.  

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6 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Numbers are objects of awareness.

anything that is an object of awareness is limited

Therefore numbers are limited.  

This. ^

Numbersare a concept, not a thing. 

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@Noor Taleb Imam Ali (عليه السلام) answered your question 1400 years ago. 

From a long tradition narrated in al-Khisal:

A Bedouin (Arab) stood near the Commander of the Faithful Imam Ali (عليه السلام) on the day of the Battle of Jamal and asked, ‘O Commander of the Faithful! Do you say that God is One?’ The people rushed unto him and said, ‘O Bedouin! Don’t you see the condition of the Commander of the Faithful (عليه السلام)? His mind is busy with several matters. It is not the time to ask such questions.’ The Commander of the Faithful (عليه السلام) said, ‘Leave him alone. This Bedouin wants just what we want from this tribe.’

 The Imam (عليه السلام) then said, ‘O Bedouin! There are four meanings implied for ‘God is One.’Two of these implications are not proper for God the Almighty, while the other two hold true. The two implications that are not proper are:

1-To say that ‘He is One’ in the sense of counting in numbers. This is not proper since what has no second cannot be counted in numbers. Don’t you see that whoever says 'God is the third of the three’ is an infidel.

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Guest Stein
45 minutes ago, starlight said:

@Noor Taleb Imam Ali (عليه السلام) answered your question 1400 years ago. 

From a long tradition narrated in al-Khisal:

A Bedouin (Arab) stood near the Commander of the Faithful Imam Ali (عليه السلام) on the day of the Battle of Jamal and asked, ‘O Commander of the Faithful! Do you say that God is One?’ The people rushed unto him and said, ‘O Bedouin! Don’t you see the condition of the Commander of the Faithful (عليه السلام)? His mind is busy with several matters. It is not the time to ask such questions.’ The Commander of the Faithful (عليه السلام) said, ‘Leave him alone. This Bedouin wants just what we want from this tribe.’

 The Imam (عليه السلام) then said, ‘O Bedouin! There are four meanings implied for ‘God is One.’Two of these implications are not proper for God the Almighty, while the other two hold true. The two implications that are not proper are:

1-To say that ‘He is One’ in the sense of counting in numbers. This is not proper since what has no second cannot be counted in numbers. Don’t you see that whoever says 'God is the third of the three’ is an infidel.

This is one of the most beautiful traditions, thank you for sharing. An absolute gem of a tradition. 

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Guest theObserver
3 hours ago, Guest Stein said:

This is one of the most beautiful traditions, thank you for sharing. An absolute gem of a tradition. 

This answers wasnt directed at the question of time and counting, but rather addresses trinity and Christian dogma , if the question was about time it would have been a tally different answer 

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4 hours ago, starlight said:

@Noor Taleb Imam Ali (عليه السلام) answered your question 1400 years ago. 

From a long tradition narrated in al-Khisal:

A Bedouin (Arab) stood near the Commander of the Faithful Imam Ali (عليه السلام) on the day of the Battle of Jamal and asked, ‘O Commander of the Faithful! Do you say that God is One?’ The people rushed unto him and said, ‘O Bedouin! Don’t you see the condition of the Commander of the Faithful (عليه السلام)? His mind is busy with several matters. It is not the time to ask such questions.’ The Commander of the Faithful (عليه السلام) said, ‘Leave him alone. This Bedouin wants just what we want from this tribe.’

 The Imam (عليه السلام) then said, ‘O Bedouin! There are four meanings implied for ‘God is One.’Two of these implications are not proper for God the Almighty, while the other two hold true. The two implications that are not proper are:

1-To say that ‘He is One’ in the sense of counting in numbers. This is not proper since what has no second cannot be counted in numbers. Don’t you see that whoever says 'God is the third of the three’ is an infidel.

Thank you I wasn’t being arrogant about it 

just wanted to know 

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