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In the Name of God بسم الله
Guest101

I need some advice on a serious matter.

Hameedeh

[MOD NOTE: WARNING! This topic discusses rape and incest. Due to the mature subject matter, discretion is advised.]

Message added by Hameedeh

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I believe such topics shouldn't be censored at all. Rather the contrary, this should have much more visibility, as it's more common than it seems.

I have heard of some cases, some close to me. The last one, the son of two close friends was sexually abused by his friend who was 5 years older (he was 7 and his friend 12). All parents know and the kid is getting psychological assistance. The family is destroyed and in rage. It was difficult for him to understand this as some sort of abuse, but it was. As for the older kid... What he has done is a crime, and he is conscious of how wrong it is, but discussing this issue with my friends, we really wonder to which point do kids at this age consider the consequences of their actions. I believe they can separate right from wrong, but not really understand the consequences fully.

This destroys you. Mostly, you won't be able to see sex as something kind or lovely, but as something violent. And what's worse, you may only enjoy it through violence (domination, for instance).

I don't believe it is strictly necessary to talk about it, but I don't know the case. I have also lived early "sexual" experiences with a close friend (I was 12), but he was my age and it was more out of curiosity and nothing explicit nor significantly physical. We never talked about it, and I think we both had different ways to normalize it. Yet for a few years, I felt that as some sort of secret I should consciously avoid speaking about, and I indeed felt somehow ashamed or dirty (and thats normal, we are talking about penises here, which we associate to urine and that is dirty for us). At 14, my brother asked me to measure his penis with a ruler. Again, nothing sexual, yet when we speak about family and genitals, it is extremely disgusting. My brother has always been a psychologically unstable person and a year ago we casted him out of home due to his schizophrenia and violence towards us. The thing is, once you overcome it, which is something that require time (it may be a few years, or half your life), you don't really need to talk about it. Maybe psychological help can be useful, to fully understand and accept what happened in the past, to be able to leave it at the past. But what's most important, to be able to enjoy sex in a healthy way. The problem with sexual abuses is not forgetting them. They crush us in a thousand pieces, and we have to repair our heart again in order to be a psychologically healthy person. To change our brain sexualizing violence and hate is probably the hardest part of factual recovery from this. While typing this, I also realize that I certainly passed through this, for instance, with the penis measurement thing, as it is something that I, a few years later in life, repeated out of desire with other guys as some sort of absurd sexual game.

Edited by Bakir

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I'm sorry you went through that and I'm sorry I can't really offer any advice.

The honest truth is he more than likely remembers and I suspect that things will have to come to air eventually. You won't want to live with the feelings you have felt and are feeling, and you shouldn't have to either. Whether or not your family see the actions of a 13 year old as reasons to disown that same person years on is hard to know.

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Guest Nani-Amma

It’s so sad to read this post. As far as telling, that time would come, a big factor of it would be how old are you now? Are you still single or married? Are both of your parents alive, working or retired? 

A lot needs to be factored in before your closure. Because basing on the life phase you and your family is in right now, could the damage or benefit be weighted. 

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11 hours ago, Bakir said:

This destroys you. Mostly, you won't be able to see sex as something kind or lovely, but as something violent. And what's worse, you may only enjoy it through violence (domination, for instance).

Yes, I don't think I'll be getting married... 

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10 hours ago, aaaz1618 said:

Whether or not your family see the actions of a 13 year old as reasons to disown that same person years on is hard to know.

It's just that no one would even imagine he would do such a thing but if I told my parents I'm sure they would believe me... 

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5 hours ago, Guest Nani-Amma said:

It’s so sad to read this post. As far as telling, that time would come, a big factor of it would be how old are you now? Are you still single or married? Are both of your parents alive, working or retired? 

A lot needs to be factored in before your closure. Because basing on the life phase you and your family is in right now, could the damage or benefit be weighted. 

I'm about 17 now, I don't think I'll be getting married even if I will be I'm scared as I don't know if I'm a virgin or not, because then the rumours would start about me being promiscuous and no one would believe me. But like I said I just don't know about my virginity. My parents are both alive, healthy and working alhamdulillah. 

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May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) make it easy for you. 

For thinking of yourself as pure, or virgin, or capable of marriage, or clean, or being a full human and a good Muslim(a), here’s something for your solace. 

Do you know Summayya, the mother of the famous companion of our dear Prophet SAW, Ammar Yaser? She and her husband were the slaves of the polytheist leaders of Mecca. When they became Muslims, they faced the worst form of violence one could face. So much so that her husband, another of her son, and she herself were murdered mercilessly by these leaders of Mecca, as a punishment for their Islam. Do you know what was the fatal blow to Summayya? They pierced a spear through her ...., below her navel. 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) curse her murderers. She was honoured the first woman Shaheed (martyr) of Islam. Later on her only remaining son Ammar was killed in the battle of Siffin fighting against the same people who had rebelled against Imam Ali AS. 

So you see, if you are a victim, Allah, HIS Prophet, all righteous Momineen, and angles stand by your side, and nothing of you is ever contaminated by the consequences of the actions of others. 

Bottom line, pull yourself together, you are neither a broken goods nor a bad person. Continue with your life, move on, make your family, keep this as a secret for now, do marry the right person at the right time, and seek counselling from a professional who can find you the right perspective of it.

What’s done is done. He was young and committed a crime. I hope he is remorseful about it. Nonetheless disclosing it now or ever in future may not be a good idea, specially for your own future married life and for the mental health of your parents, but do pledge to protect yourself and your future children from such pain at all cost. 

Edited by AMR5

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18 hours ago, Guest101 said:

Salaam, 

I've just created this new account for identity purposes. If the mods think this is too inappropriate then I guess it will be removed... 

This is the first time I've ever told anyone about this. Straight into it. When I was about 9 years old, my brother was about 13. One day he called me into my parents bedroom and he locked the door. He told my Mum that we would be playing a game. But no. He lied down on the bed and removed his clothes and told me to take mine off. He was my older brother and at the time I didn't see anything wrong with it, so I did. He then told me to start touching his pe*is and basically give him oral sex. I didn't want to but I just thought it was a game. Then after sometime he made me lie down and said he was going to lick me as well. But when he did, I started laughing and told him that it was tickling me, he stopped obviously so no one heard me. Then the worst happened. He told me to go on all fours, then he penetrated me. It hurt so bad, I said that I wanted to go downstairs but he said that he would give me sweets if I stayed, so I did again I just thought it was a game. He started again and it hurt me but I didn't say anything. Soon he asked "Can you feel anything wriggling". Remembering this now is so disgusting. I said no. But eventually he finished. After he said not to tell anyone because it was "our secret little game". But he never did it again. So for a few years I didn't tell anyone anyway. But somewhere along the line I learned what he was actually doing to me. So the reason for not telling anyone changed. I felt embarrassed, ashamed and dirty. I was scared that I would be punished for not telling anyone before. Ever since I learned that it wasn't a game we played I've felt uncomfortable and really impure, anxious and sick around him. There wasn't really enough space growing up and me and him shared a room, God forbid he ever did anything to me while I was asleep. Fast forward today and I still haven't told anyone. Now I know if I told someone then he would basically get disowned. But I haven't been able to bring myself to do that. It would destroy everything my parents have worked for and that would be selfish. My parents would be mentally destroyed. So I'll just keep this with me for the rest of my life.

My question is, has anyone been through or known anyone who has been through something like this? I've been finding it really hard to cope recently, I just feel so ashamed around him now. He must know that I still remember but I don't know if he even remembers still... What should I do?!

PS: Mods I understand if this does not get approved but if there is a way with censorship then please censor away... 

:cry:

Salam

I'm really sorry about this thats just so disgusting and no offence but your brother deserves a huge punishment for this horrible act.

But always remember that you were innocent and you're not impure, because you were only 9 and had absolutely no knowledge about this.

2 hours ago, Guest101 said:

I'm about 17 now, I don't think I'll be getting married even if I will be I'm scared as I don't know if I'm a virgin or not, because then the rumours would start about me being promiscuous and no one would believe me. But like I said I just don't know about my virginity. My parents are both alive, healthy and working alhamdulillah. 

I do not know if this is possible, but are you able to book an appointment or something and let the doctors check whether you're a virgin or not? 

Also if you don't mind me asking this question, I understand you were very young, but do you remember any bleeding after the incident? 

Once again I'm very sorry about this. You were only an innocent child and you don't deserve to go through such things. 

I hope things get better for you inshallah

fee amanillah

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Now I don't want to be that guy, or appear insensitive, nor judgemental. Because honestly what you experienced was disgraceful and unjust.

But it does raise some interesting questions, purely from a fiqhi perspective.

According to Sayid Sistani, a boy reaches the age of baligh and thus accountability as an adult would at the age of 15, or unless he displays signs, one which includes able to ejaculate or seminal discharge.

For a girl, I know it may surprise some but it is generally the age of 9. Now I'm in no ways disagreeing with others in putting any blame on you per se.

However, from a fiqh point of view, removing your clothes in front of a mahram like your older brother and agreeing to play this game which involved touching his privates, etc. I would say a baligh individual really should know better, in terms of whether this is right or wrong or whether something feels odd at least, granted everyone is different in comprehension at this age. But parents really need to teach their children their rights and responsibilities as they attain "adulthood".

From a fiqh perspective, depending on her brother's age, could this mean he may or may not be accountable for what he did, if he was not baligh?

I am not trying to go against the grain of the thread here nor trying to excuse him, merely to understand this from a fiqh view. But consulting a marja by email in addition to counselling is also advised. It is better to know if tawba was applicable than not knowing. 

Again sorry if I appear insensitive, it is not my intention.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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4 minutes ago, Bakir said:

In all due respect, this post is a joke. Are you really talking about her responsibility on this? Do you even know what manipulation and abuse of power is? You don't need to be a baligh to understand that the fiqhi viewpoint cannot be more ridiculous to mention on such a case. It is really offensive and out of place.

Hence why I mentioned a disclaimer and acknowledged the fact that people comprehend things at different ages.

That this forum is primarily a forum based on a religion, really should not shock or offend you if the genuine issue of fiqh is raised.

Your emotional response is understandable.

Also I stand by my position that she ought to contact a learned marja in addition to counselling should she need it. 

 

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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1 minute ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Hence why I mentioned a disclaimer and acknowledged the fact that people comprehend things at different ages.

That this forum is primarily a forum based on a religion, really should not shock or offend you if the genuine issue of fiqh is raised.

Your emotional response is understandable.

There are things that are better not said regardless of disclaimer. Anyway...

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9 minutes ago, Bakir said:

There are things that are better not said regardless of disclaimer. Anyway...

Op could have posted this on any anonymous message board online like Reddit, etc or a forum specifically for these issues. 

She chose to post on Shia Chat, so she clearly appreciates an Islamic perspective to this issue. Fiqh is part of the religion, and it is not solely about responding emotionally.

We can agree to disagree.

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59 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

Also if you don't mind me asking this question, I understand you were very young, but do you remember any bleeding after the incident? 

I actually had my first period at 9 but I don't remember if it was after or before he did it. And after the incident I was bleeding from both entrances, but he said that it was fake blood and part of the game. My Mom never saw it because he made me clean myself after.

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47 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

removing your clothes in front of a mahram like your older brother and agreeing to play this game which involved touching his privates, etc. I would say a baligh individual really should know better, in terms of whether this is right or wrong or whether something feels odd at least,

I know, I did something really bad and disgusting and I'll never forgive myself for letting him do it to me, I just hope that my punishment is bearable. 

50 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

a boy reaches the age of baligh and thus accountability as an adult would at the age of 15, or unless he displays signs, one which includes able to ejaculate or seminal discharge.

Yes, at the age of 13 he was fully.... grown and.... developed..... 

I had my first period at about 9 and as I said before he did finish... So who knows what could've happened.... I couldn't stop him, I was in too much pain and he was way more powerful than me, like I said he had already reached puberty by then.... 

Probably something genetic with my family.

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1 hour ago, Guest101 said:

I actually had my first period at 9 but I don't remember if it was after or before he did it. And after the incident I was bleeding from both entrances, but he said that it was fake blood and part of the game. My Mom never saw it because he made me clean myself after.

Honestly this is so disgusting, like I don’t even know what else to say.

I hope things get better for you Insha Allah, and my advice is to talk to a counsellor about this issue personally. I can't imagine how difficult this must be, and your brother is definitely held accountable by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for these disgusting actions. Just rely on Allah for now, and have trust in Him surely things will get better

fee amanillah

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20 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

and my advice is to talk to a counsellor about this issue personally. I

I can't talk to a counsellor as I'm still under the guardianship of my parents who have no idea about the whole thing... 

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5 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

For a girl, I know it may surprise some but it is generally the age of 9. Now I'm in no ways disagreeing with others in putting any blame on you per se.

However, from a fiqh point of view, removing your clothes in front of a mahram like your older brother and agreeing to play this game which involved touching his privates, etc. I would say a baligh individual really should know better

From a fiqh perspective, depending on her brother's age, could this mean he may or may not be accountable for what he did, if he was not baligh?

I think the problem here is that children do not think of puberty in this sense, responsibility in this sense or even religion in this sense. As adults Islam is our way of life, I can guarantee when our respected sister's brother did what he did he was not thinking about fiqh. I can double on that and say that when our respected sister was treated how she was she was not thinking of fiqh. She said herself she thought it was a game, so she obviously had no idea or responsibility for her actions.

She was a little kid, he was a kid too but an older kid who had more power, more influence and more knowledge sexually and otherwise. Essentially we are saying she should know better for being a little kid, and now our respected sister is saying how she feels disgusted for letting it happen and hopes the punishment is tolerable. What punishment?? Punished for being attacked by your own brother, the person you look up to? She was vulnerable, maybe him too, but really we can't have her think she has sinned. Our understanding of Allah is better than that.

I know you say you are not 'blaming her per se', and I believe your intention isn't to blame her, but perhaps the way you worded your response as seen from quotes speaks differently 'not blaming you per se' then saying 'a baligh (her) should know better' then saying her brother as he is not 13 is not accountable. See where I'm coming from?

Bottom line is, there is no use in us applying our religious wisdom and knowledge to the situation, because it was never applied during the event. 

All we can do is pray that our sister finds the strength to go on, because these events can ruin a person, and that the men she encounters in life respect her as she ought to be. I have full trust in Allah that she will be granted a stable family and that she will receive the sexual psychotherapy she needs.

Edit: Just saw your last response, that's all fair. 

Edited by aaaz1618

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Guest Bali
1 hour ago, aaaz1618 said:

I think the problem here is that children do not think of puberty in this sense, responsibility in this sense or even religion in this sense. As adults Islam is our way of life, I can guarantee when our respected sister's brother did what he did he was not thinking about fiqh. I can double on that and say that when our respected sister was treated how she was she was not thinking of fiqh. She said herself she thought it was a game, so she obviously had no idea or responsibility for her actions.

She was a little kid, he was a kid too but an older kid who had more power, more influence and more knowledge sexually and otherwise. Essentially we are saying she should know better for being a little kid, and now our respected sister is saying how she feels disgusted for letting it happen and hopes the punishment is tolerable. What punishment?? Punished for being attacked by your own brother, the person you look up to? She was vulnerable, maybe him too, but really we can't have her think she has sinned. Our understanding of Allah is better than that.

I know you say you are not 'blaming her per se', and I believe your intention isn't to blame her, but perhaps the way you worded your response as seen from quotes speaks differently 'not blaming you per se' then saying 'a baligh (her) should know better' then saying her brother as he is not 13 is not accountable. See where I'm coming from?

Bottom line is, there is no use in us applying our religious wisdom and knowledge to the situation, because it was never applied during the event. 

All we can do is pray that our sister finds the strength to go on, because these events can ruin a person, and that the men she encounters in life respect her as she ought to be. I have full trust in Allah that she will be granted a stable family and that she will receive the sexual psychotherapy she needs.

Edit: Just saw your last response, that's all fair. 

This is what doesn't make sense. She was being sexually abused but was a nine year old. Why do our scholars say she would be legally responsible for that act, which effectively is Zina? Surely this isn't the case.

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Guest Bali

And how did menstruating , or simply turning nine lunar years suddenly make a girl (woman?) competent to understand her actions and so liable for them? For a male it is up to fifteen, where significantly more brain development and maturity have both occurred.

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28 minutes ago, Guest Bali said:

This is what doesn't make sense. She was being sexually abused but was a nine year old. Why do our scholars say she would be legally responsible for that act, which effectively is Zina? Surely this isn't the case.

I haven't seen any scholar in here say so. Would be embarassing to see such behaviour from a scholar (though wouldn't be surprising at all).

A member just pointed out the concept of bulugh related to this issue, but as I said before, I found it ridiculous in the sense that it is very incomplete, because sins are evaluated by context in a large part. For instance, stealing. Puberty is not the sole indicator of someone's morality.

In that sense, I end up hating fiqh, for real. I believe it is among the worst that has happened to our religion and community and education, as well as to hawza. Not that fiqh, as a discipline, is wrong. But when you see how it has shaped our understanding and thinking process, you really feel like it is more harmful than helpful. People asking if the sexually abused girl is guilty? And then, asking if cutting bread with a knife is halal? And then, asking if they can pray with a cat hair or not? It's like if we are just getting rid of any critical thinking and common sense in favour of fiqh, and genuinely thinking we are doing this in favour of Islam. This is real naivety.

Edited by Bakir

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Guest Bakery
10 hours ago, Guest Bali said:

This is what doesn't make sense. She was being sexually abused but was a nine year old. Why do our scholars say she would be legally responsible for that act, which effectively is Zina? Surely this isn't the case.

What doesn’t make sense?

We shouldn’t speak of the opinion of our scholars until we ask them of their opinion. Let’s not do analogies. 

From what I read from the OP, this is the case of Zina Bil Jabr (the rape). Punishment for the perpetrator of the rape crime in Islam is capital punishment. Death by sword in traditional sense but it could change to electric chair, instrumenting poison, firing range, or the hanging, all based on the Fiqhi ruling. 

For the victim, obviously she ought to be compensated by the verdict of the Islamic court of law (Hakim Shari’ - in this case Ay. Seestani or her Marja’), depending on assessment of the damage she inflicted in bodily harm, psychological harm, medical bills, reputation harm, implications in not being to make her career, loosing a home, loss of trust etc. etc.  

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Guest Bali
11 minutes ago, Bakir said:

I haven't seen any scholar in here say so. Would be embarassing to see such behaviour from a scholar (though wouldn't be surprising at all).

A member just pointed out the concept of bulugh related to this issue, but as I said before, I found it ridiculous in the sense that it is very incomplete, because sins are evaluated by context in a large part. For instance, stealing. Puberty is not the sole indicator of someone's morality.

In that sense, I end up hating fiqh, for real. I believe it is among the worst that has happened to our religion and community and education, as well as to hawza. Not that fiqh, as a discipline, is wrong. But when you see how it has shaped our understanding and thinking process, you really feel like it is more harmful than helpful. People asking if the sexually abused girl is guilty? And then, asking if cutting bread with a knife is halal? And then, asking if they can pray with a cat hair or not? It's like if we are just getting rid of any critical thinking and common sense in favour of fiqh, and genuinely thinking we are doing this in favour of Islam. This is real naivety.

@Ibn al-Hussain

Could you help us here brother?

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On 5/19/2019 at 5:18 PM, Guest101 said:

Now I know if I told someone then he would basically get disowned. But I haven't been able to bring myself to do that. It would destroy everything my parents have worked for and that would be selfish. My parents would be mentally destroyed. So I'll just keep this with me for the rest of my life.

@Diaz

As for what my brother thinks, I don't know... 

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10 hours ago, Guest Bakery said:

What doesn’t make sense?

We shouldn’t speak of the opinion of our scholars until we ask them of their opinion. Let’s not do analogies. 

From what I read from the OP, this is the case of Zina Bil Jabr (the rape). Punishment for the perpetrator of the rape crime in Islam is capital punishment. Death by sword in traditional sense but it could change to electric chair, instrumenting poison, firing range, or the hanging, all based on the Fiqhi ruling. 

For the victim, obviously she ought to be compensated by the verdict of the Islamic court of law (Hakim Shari’ - in this case Ay. Seestani or her Marja’), depending on assessment of the damage she inflicted in bodily harm, psychological harm, medical bills, reputation harm, implications in not being to make her career, loosing a home, loss of trust etc. etc.  

Rape? How in the world two kids have any idea what they are doing? Or have any idea of Islamic laws and its punishment. Or what about the witness etc. What about if the boy repent and have no idea about Islamic laws? 

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Guest Valor

I don't really know what to tell you. May Allah help you and protect you. Stay strong sister. 

PS - there are plenty of good understanding men out there, virginity isn't an issue in that regard(knowing fully how precious it is for women!). 

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2 hours ago, Guest101 said:

@Diaz

As for what my brother thinks, I don't know... 

I highly recommend you to talk it with someone you trust. Something bad is going to happens if you keep on holding it. If your brother does not regret that day, then what’s the use of protecting him? Talk with him about it, he need to feel your pain. 

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