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Guest101

I need some advice on a serious matter.

Hameedeh

[MOD NOTE: WARNING! This topic discusses rape and incest. Due to the mature subject matter, discretion is advised.]

Message added by Hameedeh

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At 13, he may not be baligh but if he was engaging in a sexual act, then he would atleast be mumayuz and could be liable to some punishment (but that would depend on a lot of factors, including whether witnesses would be required, and whether he realised that his action could be punishable etc). 

Once a non baligh boy who was maybe 11-12 years old commited a theft. He was caught and brought to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). The Imam did not cut his hand but instead chopped off some flesh from the sides of his fingers. This means a 13 year old could get punishment too for zina (provided all conditions are fullfilled). 

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1 hour ago, 2Timeless said:

Seriously? The poor little boy had no idea about Islamic law? He took her and locked her in a room. He told her this was their "sweet little secret" and he warned her not to tell anyone. A normal human being doesnt need to have knowledge on Islamic law or any law for that matter to know that raping your own sister is wrong on every level fathomable. This is the ideology and approach that makes victims such as the OP hide away and live with such a secret that destroys their life forever. 

@Guest101 I can’t imagine how broken you must feel. I'm so sorry for everything you've gone through. May Allah give you strength to ease this pain. I'm sorry, but your brother is a psychopath. No normal 13 year old boy would take is little sister and do such things to her. No matter what anyone ever says to you, it is not your fault and you are not dirty or impure or any less valuable in any shape or form because of some demented person's violation of your body. 

You need to make sure you spend as little time with your brother as possible. If he still lives at home, make sure you lock your bedroom door when your asleep and maybe even keep some sort of object nearby to defend yourself. You should consider talking to a therapist to help you deal with this trauma. It will be hard to deal with, but not impossible. 

You don't get it. Im not talking about that he did not do wrong. What I'm talking about is the punishment of the boy which will be in Islamic, death. Do he even know what is his fate is. Do he know anything about halaal or haraam. Does his own parents teach anything about these matters. Was he amoung those who watch pornography and by his desires it leads to such an evil act. Does he live in west and have such a influence to think it is not serious etc.

Edited by Abu Nur

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Guest Bakery
18 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

You don't get it. Im not talking about that he did not do wrong. What I'm talking about is the punishment of the boy which will be in Islamic, death. Do he even know what is his fate is. Do he know anything about halaal or haraam. Does his own parents teach anything about these matters. Was he amoung those who watch pornography and by his desires it leads to such an evil act. Does he live in west and have such a influence to think it is not serious etc.

Not knowing the consequence of a crime doesn’t absolve you from it if you commit it.

Crimes like killing, raping, stealing, murdering, adulterating, fornicating, masturbating, drug abusing, alcohol drinking, and incest are ingrained as CRIMES in basic human conscience. Nobody needs to tell anyone that these are the crimes so ‘don’t commit them’ or nobody needs to stop themselves from these ‘only once they know their punishment for committing these’. They need NOT be committed anyway.

Qur'an (or other religious text) informing about these is a favor but is not a requirement from Allah, because He already created us with this sense.

You repeating a couple of times what you said, would make me be scared of you if I’m alone around you in a deserted island, because apparently you are not bound by your own moral code, but of how much punishment would you receive as a consequence. No fear of consequence, and you could totally commit it. Reset your moral thinking!!!

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Crimes like killing, raping, stealing, murdering, adulterating, fornicating, masturbating, drug abusing, alcohol drinking, and incest are ingrained as CRIMES in basic human conscience. Nobody needs to tell anyone that these are the crimes so ‘don’t commit them’ or nobody needs to stop themselves from these ‘only once they know their punishment for committing these’. They need NOT be committed anyway.

All of this sins can be forgiven if the non-Muslim convert. But for Jahil born Muslim, what in the world does he even knows that committing such a crime will lead him to chopping his head off? Did he even in his time have any awareness and consciousness of fearing of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). What about the Quranic this verses, it does not apply to his/her case?

“Allah accepts only the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and foolishness and repent soon afterwards; it is they to whom Allah will forgive and Allah is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise”

Everyone who repents before death is regarded as having repented “soon afterwards”. 

Quote

You repeating a couple of times what you said, would make me be scared of you if I’m alone around you in a deserted island, because apparently you are not bound by your own moral code, but of how much punishment would you receive as a consequence. No fear of consequence, and you could totally commit it. Reset your moral thinking!!!

 

What are you talking about, that is disgusting.

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19 minutes ago, Guest Bakery said:

Not knowing the consequence of a crime doesn’t absolve you from it if you commit it.

In Islamic fiqh, it is important to find out whether the culprit was aware of the specified punishment for that crime or not. For example, if a person Steels something and is caught, then the Islamic punishment would be cutting off his fingers (provided about 40 other conditions are met). But if he was unaware of the fact that the punishment can be cutting of fingers, then his fingers cannot be cut. He might be given some other punishment which the jurist would decide (?maybe lashes). But the point is...in order to reach a judgment for the punishment of a crime, the pre hand knowledge of the culprit about the possible punishment needs to be taken into account. 

Edited by Maisam Haider

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OP:

I know you'll never be able to see your brother the same way and that's one of the worldly punishment your brother is receiving for this disgusting act. You shouldn't feel ashamed because he initiated this and took advantage of your innocence. The fact that he's not doing it anymore goes to show that he only had the guts to do it when you were young and innocent. Also, don't worry, I can guarantee that your brother won't harm you. 

However, you still need to be careful when you're around your brother even though he won't rape you. If he hugs or wants to sleep with you etc. Just be direct and say that "I don't feel comfortable and if you don't listen to me I will tell mum or dad". 

Still don't hate your brother and be rude to him, because there is a slight chance that he regrets what he did and won't ever repeat it. However don't mind if you feel your relationship with him has been affected, he asked for it. It's not even your fault. It's his loss.

Yeah, you need to talk to a counsellor if you feel down or need emotional support. You could also talk to some sisters on this forum and be good friends with them, they'll defs help you a lot.

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Once admin have concluded sufficient advice has been given, can they please close the thread? Not saying hide/delete, just stop the discussion from going any further. Further comments is just inevitably leading to misinterpreting what people are saying and causing fitnah. This is not the month.

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And those who do not invoke with Allah another deity or kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed], except by right, and do not commit unlawful sexual intercourse. And whoever should do that will meet a penalty.

Multiplied for him is the punishment on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein humiliated -

Except for those who repent, believe and do righteous work. For them Allah will replace their evil deeds with good. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

And he who repents and does righteousness does indeed turn to Allah with [accepted] repentance. Qur'an 25:68-70

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I tried to PM you this but I am unable to send messages as my account is relatively new.

First and foremost, I'd like to apologize. I am sorry that you had to go through something like this. No one deserves this kind of sexual abuse, especially a child who doesn't know better. You should know, and I can't stress this enough, that this is NOT your fault in ANY way. You did not say or do anything that could have led him to do this to you, and if for a second you believe that you had even a 0.05% hand in what he did to you, then let me tell you very confidently that you do. No blame of any kind will ever be imparted on you, even if you feel your silence led to its occurrence. 

Now, I'd like to advise you to seek psychological or psychiatric treatment if you aren't already. I know in our society this is not taken very seriously, but sexual abuse of any kind is very damaging to our psyche and causes lifelong emotional upset. I speak from experience as I too was sexually abused at a young age, and it has damaged my psychological well-being. I seek counselling on an interim basis (when things go bad) though I feel I have a better grasp of it now. I also didn't tell my parents because I was ashamed and thought I had something to do with it, but my therapist made me realize that I was blaming myself for something that was effectively beyond my control. You need to realize this too. You also should find a therapist who you feel you can speak freely with, as open, honest conversations are key to gaining useful insight into your life and your psychological well-being. 

You don't have to bring it up to your brother, and neither do you have to feel shame when facing him. He probably remembers what he did, and may or may not feel regret over it and is likely not willing to bring it up either due to the shame. You do not owe anything to him and unless you feel YOU will be better off confronting him, YOU do not need to confront him.

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Salaam Sister, I also wanted to tell you, like the many other users here who have already told you, that you are innocent and not at fault. You were young and didn’t know what was going on. Your having no knowledge of the matter was taken advantage of and you were tricked into it. Please do not be so hard on yourself and treat yourself as impure because you are not impure. You are pure. I pray that things get better for you InshaAllah. 

Edited by AStruggler

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On 5/19/2019 at 11:18 AM, Guest101 said:

I felt embarrassed, ashamed and dirty.

Salam. What happened to you was an injustice and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows that you did not deserve what he did to you.

On 5/19/2019 at 11:18 AM, Guest101 said:

My question is, has anyone been through or known anyone who has been through something like this? 

Yes, I know someone who was sexually abused by a cousin when she was 4 years old and she suffered a lot of mental pressure thinking about what happened and wondering if she said or did anything that caused that to happen to her. For months at a time she would block "the event" from her mind but at least once or twice a year she would get anxious if her family traveled to her grandparents house, because her cousin might be there, too. So once again she would remember what happened when she was 4. She did get married and have children, however she was very protective of them and would never leave them alone with anyone who might harm them.

On 5/19/2019 at 11:18 AM, Guest101 said:

I've been finding it really hard to cope recently, I just feel so ashamed around him now. He must know that I still remember but I don't know if he even remembers still...

He most definitely remembers that he hurt you, unless he mentally blocked it from his mind. I hope that you are not still living with him!

On 5/19/2019 at 11:18 AM, Guest101 said:

What should I do?!

How old are you now? 

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@AStruggler yeah just quoting some hadiths from that book in case peope are lazy to open up the link. It's amazing how our Imams (عليه السلام) knew how this issue will affect our communities and hence they addressed it. 

The Prophet of Islam has said:

“When the child reaches the age of seven years, arrange a separate bed for him."1

Imam as-Sadiq narrates from his ancestors:

“The women and children of ten years must have separate individual beds."2

"If a mother rubs her body against the body of her own daughter, she is doing a sort of molestation."3

“A man should not kiss his six year old daughter, and a woman should not kiss her seven year old son." 4

"For the psychic welfare of the children, we should not expose our bodies to them. Sometimes the children might peep through the crevices in the bathroom door while we are bathing. or changing our clothes. We must ensure that the children don’t develop such habits."

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1 hour ago, Guest101 said:

Can anyone advise on how to see a therapist/go to counselling without anyone finding out? 

They are bound by confidentiality, unless you or someone else is at risk. However, if they send appointment letters you'd need to think of some way of explaining that. Most therapy don't, they'll agree a time and date with you at the session. I don't know where you live and if that is how it is done, but for me it was.

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12 minutes ago, aaaz1618 said:

They are bound by confidentiality, unless you or someone else is at risk. However, if they send appointment letters you'd need to think of some way of explaining that. Most therapy don't, they'll agree a time and date with you at the session. I don't know where you live and if that is how it is done, but for me it was.

But I'm only 17 and I'm not allowed out of the house on my own. 

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1 hour ago, Guest101 said:

But I'm only 17 and I'm not allowed out of the house on my own. 

Isn't there some kind of skype counselling of some sort you can find?

Edit: found an article which features different online counselling sites

https://www.bbc.co.United Kingdom/bbcthree/article/c4c9c3ce-16d0-4c96-979c-5d142713b384

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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Guest theObserver

Unfortunately this is actually a very common thing in 90's era

I been working community service helping out people who had serious trauma in their childhood, and there is 4 males I am working with of Turkish now they are married and over 30's but went through similar experience with you, and the worst part it happened at the bottom of the mosque from other adults and children

anyway , they were also told it was a game and they were abused as well, and the worst part is that they got so used to it happening to them they started to do it to other kids as if it was normal practise

they obviously as they got older and realized what was really happening carry extreme guilt about the fact that it happened to them and that they also caused it to other children (while they were kids themselves not in adulthood so people don’t get confused) an their main problem is the guilt , but really there is no way to move forward until people are made to believe that it wasnt their fault, it happened to them while they were not conscious of what they were doing, so the main thing u need to do is to talk to somebody and convince yourself that it is not your fault or it will follow you forever in life and also cause other psychological problems, like self blame, lack of confidence , low self worth, and depression and misery, so you just need to accept that it has happened, you know its wrong you accept that fact when you did, and understand that you did not have any control over it

now the other issues you need to deal with is your brother, do you still see him? has he ever talked to you about it or mentioned it(in the sense of apology and admitting that it wasnt his fault etc)

usually when children practise such things, its actually not some imagination they came up with, because for children such thought don’t exist until they reach puberty and maturity, and even for a 13 year old boy this shouldnt be natural to think off, s chances are your brother was also abused and clearly systematically because in all cases of children that get abused systematicall for a period of time that isnt short, eventually they do it to other children or even more commonly their siblings, so very high chances are is that your brother had already been abused by somebody else before he came to you and probably for a long period time, and might have even done such acts on other children too besides yourself

so you need to address both things, dealing with him and dealing with your own self blame, because that is usually what follows to people who experience such things, they blame themselves

interestingly, all 4 males I dealt with(in their adulthood) the 3 that had siblings, also eventually did the same thing to their siblings, not to the extent of what you experienced, as some had same sex siblings, but close to it

so this is very common practise to children that have siblings that experience abuse

they experience abuse, they get used to it and think its normal, and eventually do it to other children or their or siblings or both

but bottom line u need to accept it wasnt your fault, it happened and there is nothing you can do to change that, it was out of your control, and it can’t affect you unless you let it, its in the past, it was wrong, but not consciously wrong, your not held responsible for it

one thing you also need to look out for and be very careful about it, is that sometimes this reemerges later in life to people who have experienced and they get inclinations towards paedophilia which they can’t understand or know why they are getting it, they might hate it and reject it, but they do get this re-emergance in their life towards it, even practising it upon their own children, so if you get such feelings, immediately seek council to deal with these cravings, because it can get out of control for some people, and this even happened with 2/4 males I was helping out with such issues , they had inclinations towards it but they never acted upon it, and slowly with time we dealt with controlling and eventually removing such feelings and inclinations , and both are alhamdulilah not reporting such feelings again, but you never know it can always come back

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31 minutes ago, Guest theObserver said:

and even for a 13 year old boy this shouldnt be natural to think off, s chances are your brother was also abused and clearly systematically because in all cases of children that get abused systematicall for a period of time that isnt short, eventually they do it to other children or even more commonly their siblings, 

In my case he must've learned about it in sex education at school and I was just his test monkey. 

He did reach puberty by 13 because he was well developed and it's very luck I didn't get pregnant from him because I had my first periods around the same time. Because he definitely did ejaculate.... it while inside. That was the most disgusting part looking back on it. 

(I've mentioned this all in previous responses) 

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6 hours ago, Guest101 said:

Can anyone advise on how to see a therapist/go to counselling without anyone finding out? 

There are many anonymous and free counselling sites. If you're in the United Kingdom, theres  Samaritans, Childline , and Kooth, they're quite well known. For Samaritans you can either call them (completely anonymous and wont show up on your phone bill) or text. 

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5 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Isn't there some kind of skype counselling of some sort you can find?

Edit: found an article which features different online counselling sites

https://www.bbc.co.United Kingdom/bbcthree/article/c4c9c3ce-16d0-4c96-979c-5d142713b384

There are online therapies in the United Kingdom that work as a stop gap seeing how waiting lists are so long like Silver Cloud and Big White Wall. They are more anxiety and depression based, I didn't find them relevant because they are quite generalised.

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Guest Bakery
4 hours ago, Guest theObserver said:

Unfortunately this is actually a very common thing in 90's era

I been working community service helping out people who had serious trauma in their childhood, and there is 4 males I am working with of Turkish now they are married and over 30's but went through similar experience with you, and the worst part it happened at the bottom of the mosque from other adults and children

anyway , they were also told it was a game and they were abused as well, and the worst part is that they got so used to it happening to them they started to do it to other kids as if it was normal practise

they obviously as they got older and realized what was really happening carry extreme guilt about the fact that it happened to them and that they also caused it to other children (while they were kids themselves not in adulthood so people don’t get confused) an their main problem is the guilt , but really there is no way to move forward until people are made to believe that it wasnt their fault, it happened to them while they were not conscious of what they were doing, so the main thing u need to do is to talk to somebody and convince yourself that it is not your fault or it will follow you forever in life and also cause other psychological problems, like self blame, lack of confidence , low self worth, and depression and misery, so you just need to accept that it has happened, you know its wrong you accept that fact when you did, and understand that you did not have any control over it

now the other issues you need to deal with is your brother, do you still see him? has he ever talked to you about it or mentioned it(in the sense of apology and admitting that it wasnt his fault etc)

usually when children practise such things, its actually not some imagination they came up with, because for children such thought don’t exist until they reach puberty and maturity, and even for a 13 year old boy this shouldnt

You mentioned 90’s era? Do you see the trend going down or up now? Any indicators why?

Also since you are a practitioner, have you seen it among other ethnicities? Where I live, many social services personnel tell of such cases among Turkish, Bosnian, and Pakistani people of Pashtun origin! I was wondering if that is true in your observation too? In my area, the government funded social services keep advertising for native speakers hires from these three ethnicities to train counsellors and technicians on issues of child abuse and sexual crimes among kids. 

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Salaam Alaykum

I am sorry to read about what has happened to you.

Many individuals who have undergone abuse find this site very beneficial. It offers useful information in terms of coping and also useful numbers to contact for counselling- specifically for situations like yours.

https://www.supportline.org.United Kingdom/problems/rape-and-sexual-assault/

 

There may be services that are more local to you. Hence why I suggest you visit your GP, but don't give out details of who the abuser is if you'd like that kept confidential. Remember, if you mention it to your GP, he/she will likely include it in your records.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) give you the strength to overcome this mental and emotional trauma. Ameen.

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On 5/20/2019 at 11:58 AM, 3wliya_maryam said:

Salam

I'm really sorry about this thats just so disgusting and no offence but your brother deserves a huge punishment for this horrible act.

But always remember that you were innocent and you're not impure, because you were only 9 and had absolutely no knowledge about this.

I do not know if this is possible, but are you able to book an appointment or something and let the doctors check whether you're a virgin or not? 

Also if you don't mind me asking this question, I understand you were very young, but do you remember any bleeding after the incident? 

Once again I'm very sorry about this. You were only an innocent child and you don't deserve to go through such things. 

I hope things get better for you inshallah

fee amanillah

What is the relevance of whether or not she bled and why should she “check her virginity”? I find that to be a very inappropriate line of questioning and the least of this young lady’s concerns should be how others view her or her virginity status. She is an innocent victim of a heinous crime, do not add insult to injury by letting her carry the burden of whether or not shes a virgin in the eyes of society.

Sister who opened this thread, you are right and brave to share your story, please please seek professional help and talk this through with a third party. Whether or not you choose disclose who did this to you is another issue which I’m sure you understand would have legal repercussions. Regardless of this, seek confidential help 

 

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On 5/21/2019 at 12:21 AM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

When people don't accept religion, there is no morality, everything is subjective. People out there justify homosexuality but would frown when it comes to incest. The hypocrisy!! 

And this is where things start to get racist. Acting as if atheists have no morality.

"People out there justify heterosexuality but would frown when it comes to incest. The hypocrisy!!"

Two people can say things that don't make any sense.

Sorry I can't help OP, your circumstances sound really rough.

Edited by gayboyanon

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3 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

And this is where things start to get racist. Acting as if atheists have no morality.

"People out there justify heterosexuality but would frown when it comes to incest. The hypocrisy!!"

Two people can say things that don't make any sense.

 

2 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

I was talking about Ali being racist. Saying that atheists have no morals.

I have 2 points to make.

(1) Racist means when you discriminate someone based on their 'race'. The statement I made has nothing to do with me being racist.

(2) I made a general statement that we know what is right and wrong based on the rules of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). I never implied that Atheists can't be generous,  honest etc. But when you forget about religion in society, everything does become subjective, which is the reason why people are okay with sins.

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9 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

 

I have 2 points to make.

(1) Racist means when you discriminate someone based on their 'race'. The statement I made has nothing to do with me being racist.

(2) I made a general statement that we know what is right and wrong based on the rules of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). I never implied that Atheists can't be generous,  honest etc. But when you forget about religion in society, everything does become subjective, which is the reason why people are okay with sins.

Well, you did say: "When you don't accept God, there is no morality." Kind of easy to take the wrong way, but I'm glad you didn't mean it like that.

Though I was using racist like people say being Islamophobic is racist. Not sure how else to describe it.

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