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In the Name of God بسم الله
Guest101

I need some advice on a serious matter.

Hameedeh

[MOD NOTE: WARNING! This topic discusses rape and incest. Due to the mature subject matter, discretion is advised.]

Message added by Hameedeh

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9 minutes ago, Bakir said:

There are things that are better not said regardless of disclaimer. Anyway...

Op could have posted this on any anonymous message board online like Reddit, etc or a forum specifically for these issues. 

She chose to post on Shia Chat, so she clearly appreciates an Islamic perspective to this issue. Fiqh is part of the religion, and it is not solely about responding emotionally.

We can agree to disagree.

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59 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

Also if you don't mind me asking this question, I understand you were very young, but do you remember any bleeding after the incident? 

I actually had my first period at 9 but I don't remember if it was after or before he did it. And after the incident I was bleeding from both entrances, but he said that it was fake blood and part of the game. My Mom never saw it because he made me clean myself after.

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47 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

removing your clothes in front of a mahram like your older brother and agreeing to play this game which involved touching his privates, etc. I would say a baligh individual really should know better, in terms of whether this is right or wrong or whether something feels odd at least,

I know, I did something really bad and disgusting and I'll never forgive myself for letting him do it to me, I just hope that my punishment is bearable. 

50 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

a boy reaches the age of baligh and thus accountability as an adult would at the age of 15, or unless he displays signs, one which includes able to ejaculate or seminal discharge.

Yes, at the age of 13 he was fully.... grown and.... developed..... 

I had my first period at about 9 and as I said before he did finish... So who knows what could've happened.... I couldn't stop him, I was in too much pain and he was way more powerful than me, like I said he had already reached puberty by then.... 

Probably something genetic with my family.

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30 minutes ago, Guest101 said:

I know, I did something really bad and disgusting and I'll never forgive myself for letting him do it to me, I just hope that my punishment is bearable. 

Yes, at the age of 13 he was fully.... grown and.... developed..... 

I had my first period at about 9 and as I said before he did finish... So who knows what could've happened.... I couldn't stop him, I was in too much pain and he was way more powerful than me, like I said he had already reached puberty by then.... 

Probably something genetic with my family.

Then for sure he is accountable for his actions and must repent or face the consequences.

Please contact your marja to at least get religious advice on this, doing so by email wont be awkward they recieve a multitude of messages relating to various issues. 

Plenty well-intentioned people on here will advise you on emotional and mental well being, but I know you are looking for more than that, as a believer.

Also do not forget Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Most Merciful, never lose hope or faith in that. Take comfort in Dua Kumayl.

b2d17ba55f3f2e0d09a225f67b0a1259.jpg

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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1 hour ago, Guest101 said:

I actually had my first period at 9 but I don't remember if it was after or before he did it. And after the incident I was bleeding from both entrances, but he said that it was fake blood and part of the game. My Mom never saw it because he made me clean myself after.

Honestly this is so disgusting, like I don’t even know what else to say.

I hope things get better for you Insha Allah, and my advice is to talk to a counsellor about this issue personally. I can't imagine how difficult this must be, and your brother is definitely held accountable by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for these disgusting actions. Just rely on Allah for now, and have trust in Him surely things will get better

fee amanillah

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20 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

and my advice is to talk to a counsellor about this issue personally. I

I can't talk to a counsellor as I'm still under the guardianship of my parents who have no idea about the whole thing... 

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5 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

For a girl, I know it may surprise some but it is generally the age of 9. Now I'm in no ways disagreeing with others in putting any blame on you per se.

However, from a fiqh point of view, removing your clothes in front of a mahram like your older brother and agreeing to play this game which involved touching his privates, etc. I would say a baligh individual really should know better

From a fiqh perspective, depending on her brother's age, could this mean he may or may not be accountable for what he did, if he was not baligh?

I think the problem here is that children do not think of puberty in this sense, responsibility in this sense or even religion in this sense. As adults Islam is our way of life, I can guarantee when our respected sister's brother did what he did he was not thinking about fiqh. I can double on that and say that when our respected sister was treated how she was she was not thinking of fiqh. She said herself she thought it was a game, so she obviously had no idea or responsibility for her actions.

She was a little kid, he was a kid too but an older kid who had more power, more influence and more knowledge sexually and otherwise. Essentially we are saying she should know better for being a little kid, and now our respected sister is saying how she feels disgusted for letting it happen and hopes the punishment is tolerable. What punishment?? Punished for being attacked by your own brother, the person you look up to? She was vulnerable, maybe him too, but really we can't have her think she has sinned. Our understanding of Allah is better than that.

I know you say you are not 'blaming her per se', and I believe your intention isn't to blame her, but perhaps the way you worded your response as seen from quotes speaks differently 'not blaming you per se' then saying 'a baligh (her) should know better' then saying her brother as he is not 13 is not accountable. See where I'm coming from?

Bottom line is, there is no use in us applying our religious wisdom and knowledge to the situation, because it was never applied during the event. 

All we can do is pray that our sister finds the strength to go on, because these events can ruin a person, and that the men she encounters in life respect her as she ought to be. I have full trust in Allah that she will be granted a stable family and that she will receive the sexual psychotherapy she needs.

Edit: Just saw your last response, that's all fair. 

Edited by aaaz1618

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Guest Bali
1 hour ago, aaaz1618 said:

I think the problem here is that children do not think of puberty in this sense, responsibility in this sense or even religion in this sense. As adults Islam is our way of life, I can guarantee when our respected sister's brother did what he did he was not thinking about fiqh. I can double on that and say that when our respected sister was treated how she was she was not thinking of fiqh. She said herself she thought it was a game, so she obviously had no idea or responsibility for her actions.

She was a little kid, he was a kid too but an older kid who had more power, more influence and more knowledge sexually and otherwise. Essentially we are saying she should know better for being a little kid, and now our respected sister is saying how she feels disgusted for letting it happen and hopes the punishment is tolerable. What punishment?? Punished for being attacked by your own brother, the person you look up to? She was vulnerable, maybe him too, but really we can't have her think she has sinned. Our understanding of Allah is better than that.

I know you say you are not 'blaming her per se', and I believe your intention isn't to blame her, but perhaps the way you worded your response as seen from quotes speaks differently 'not blaming you per se' then saying 'a baligh (her) should know better' then saying her brother as he is not 13 is not accountable. See where I'm coming from?

Bottom line is, there is no use in us applying our religious wisdom and knowledge to the situation, because it was never applied during the event. 

All we can do is pray that our sister finds the strength to go on, because these events can ruin a person, and that the men she encounters in life respect her as she ought to be. I have full trust in Allah that she will be granted a stable family and that she will receive the sexual psychotherapy she needs.

Edit: Just saw your last response, that's all fair. 

This is what doesn't make sense. She was being sexually abused but was a nine year old. Why do our scholars say she would be legally responsible for that act, which effectively is Zina? Surely this isn't the case.

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Guest Bali

And how did menstruating , or simply turning nine lunar years suddenly make a girl (woman?) competent to understand her actions and so liable for them? For a male it is up to fifteen, where significantly more brain development and maturity have both occurred.

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Hi sister, are you planning to talk to your family about this situation? By the way, what does your brother think about what he did?

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28 minutes ago, Guest Bali said:

This is what doesn't make sense. She was being sexually abused but was a nine year old. Why do our scholars say she would be legally responsible for that act, which effectively is Zina? Surely this isn't the case.

I haven't seen any scholar in here say so. Would be embarassing to see such behaviour from a scholar (though wouldn't be surprising at all).

A member just pointed out the concept of bulugh related to this issue, but as I said before, I found it ridiculous in the sense that it is very incomplete, because sins are evaluated by context in a large part. For instance, stealing. Puberty is not the sole indicator of someone's morality.

In that sense, I end up hating fiqh, for real. I believe it is among the worst that has happened to our religion and community and education, as well as to hawza. Not that fiqh, as a discipline, is wrong. But when you see how it has shaped our understanding and thinking process, you really feel like it is more harmful than helpful. People asking if the sexually abused girl is guilty? And then, asking if cutting bread with a knife is halal? And then, asking if they can pray with a cat hair or not? It's like if we are just getting rid of any critical thinking and common sense in favour of fiqh, and genuinely thinking we are doing this in favour of Islam. This is real naivety.

Edited by Bakir

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Guest Bakery
10 hours ago, Guest Bali said:

This is what doesn't make sense. She was being sexually abused but was a nine year old. Why do our scholars say she would be legally responsible for that act, which effectively is Zina? Surely this isn't the case.

What doesn’t make sense?

We shouldn’t speak of the opinion of our scholars until we ask them of their opinion. Let’s not do analogies. 

From what I read from the OP, this is the case of Zina Bil Jabr (the rape). Punishment for the perpetrator of the rape crime in Islam is capital punishment. Death by sword in traditional sense but it could change to electric chair, instrumenting poison, firing range, or the hanging, all based on the Fiqhi ruling. 

For the victim, obviously she ought to be compensated by the verdict of the Islamic court of law (Hakim Shari’ - in this case Ay. Seestani or her Marja’), depending on assessment of the damage she inflicted in bodily harm, psychological harm, medical bills, reputation harm, implications in not being to make her career, loosing a home, loss of trust etc. etc.  

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Guest Bali
11 minutes ago, Bakir said:

I haven't seen any scholar in here say so. Would be embarassing to see such behaviour from a scholar (though wouldn't be surprising at all).

A member just pointed out the concept of bulugh related to this issue, but as I said before, I found it ridiculous in the sense that it is very incomplete, because sins are evaluated by context in a large part. For instance, stealing. Puberty is not the sole indicator of someone's morality.

In that sense, I end up hating fiqh, for real. I believe it is among the worst that has happened to our religion and community and education, as well as to hawza. Not that fiqh, as a discipline, is wrong. But when you see how it has shaped our understanding and thinking process, you really feel like it is more harmful than helpful. People asking if the sexually abused girl is guilty? And then, asking if cutting bread with a knife is halal? And then, asking if they can pray with a cat hair or not? It's like if we are just getting rid of any critical thinking and common sense in favour of fiqh, and genuinely thinking we are doing this in favour of Islam. This is real naivety.

@Ibn al-Hussain

Could you help us here brother?

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On 5/19/2019 at 5:18 PM, Guest101 said:

Now I know if I told someone then he would basically get disowned. But I haven't been able to bring myself to do that. It would destroy everything my parents have worked for and that would be selfish. My parents would be mentally destroyed. So I'll just keep this with me for the rest of my life.

@Diaz

As for what my brother thinks, I don't know... 

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10 hours ago, Guest Bakery said:

What doesn’t make sense?

We shouldn’t speak of the opinion of our scholars until we ask them of their opinion. Let’s not do analogies. 

From what I read from the OP, this is the case of Zina Bil Jabr (the rape). Punishment for the perpetrator of the rape crime in Islam is capital punishment. Death by sword in traditional sense but it could change to electric chair, instrumenting poison, firing range, or the hanging, all based on the Fiqhi ruling. 

For the victim, obviously she ought to be compensated by the verdict of the Islamic court of law (Hakim Shari’ - in this case Ay. Seestani or her Marja’), depending on assessment of the damage she inflicted in bodily harm, psychological harm, medical bills, reputation harm, implications in not being to make her career, loosing a home, loss of trust etc. etc.  

Rape? How in the world two kids have any idea what they are doing? Or have any idea of Islamic laws and its punishment. Or what about the witness etc. What about if the boy repent and have no idea about Islamic laws? 

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