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In the Name of God بسم الله
AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

The failures of “born” Muslims

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Alhamdulilah, 

All this because of another thread :confused:

Converts, Reverts, extrovert, introverts, invert, lil Uzi vert, Gerald levert...convicts, ex convicts!! Assimilation programs, rehabilitations programs?? You people would make new Muslims feel like unfortunate untouchables straight from an animal shelter. Can it not just be new believers or new brothers and sisters of the faith? 

What is a born Muslim? Technically every soul is pure before being mutilated by its parents or society. There is this pride with “born” Muslims who are from Muslim countries or raised Muslims that serves as a way to make themselves feel better about themselves in a hierarchy way. 

The bottom line is I have seen a lot of so called born Muslims from Muslim countries who are almost no different from Kuffar. They are out in the dunya here in states doing whatever. I see the kids of Born Muslim parents doing worse things than kuffar kids. 

A lot of born Muslims in Muslim countries are doing Islamic rituals as cultural habits or cultural norm and not necessarily for the pleasure of Allah. Their hearts are not really about Islam. They would rather be in another country not living as a Muslim or they wish their country wasn’t as “Islamic” strict. I have been to Muslim countries such as Jordan, Saudi Arabia and lived in Malaysia and Singapore and I can tell you there are “born” Muslims there who don’t know Jack about Islam. A lot of the Arabs only know the language but not Islam. And a lot of the so called Born Shia only know Ali or Hussein and when to come to the masjid and put on a Tear show for Karbala. 

Both of my parents are Muslim but as an individual I had to embrace Islam and act upon the pillars of my faith no matter where I am in the world especially because it’s easy to be involved in everything haraam in the states because it’s the norm.  Even if you are raised Muslim that individual has to find his or her way to the straight path of Allah. 

Giving new brothers and sisters these systematic identity terms that segregate them as believers is something that even the Christians don’t do here in the states. Some Christians May call themselves born again or reformed which is way better in my opinion. 

Assimilate the converts ?? Assimilate the reverts?? Sounds like terms for ex convicts getting freshly out of prison who have no money, education, or communication abilities. Awwww! Look at the poor convert/revert Muslim! :byecry: Should we offer him a meal? Yes, give him Some dates! it’s sadiqah! Can you say SALAAAAM WA LAIKUM??? 

One thing you can do to make new brothers and sisters feel part of the faith is talk to them like people and befriend them like they are human.  Talk to them about their struggles and your struggles. Learn their culture and teach them yours.

The foreign Arab and Shia Muslims are socially inept here in the states. They are outta of touch so they isolate themselves in their exclusive cultural center “masjids” to feel better about themselves I guess. It’s really the Sunni tableeki Pakistani brothers and African American Muslims doing the ground work for Islam on the street level which really matters. They make new Muslims feel like Muslims without giving them segregated degrading titles. 

I saw on another thread someone say what what if their kids marry a a white foreign Muslim or even worse a black Muslim??? Whaaaaaat? The ummah 2019 everybody. Smh 

This is why when the Mahdi is here Islam is going to seem like a totally different religion. Just how prepared are you guys for the Mahdi? 

May Allah have mercy on the believing men and believing women. 

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I agree with most of it but I think born Shias have more chance than the others they are like kids that born in a wealthy palace so they don't know value of their position while other born Muslims don't have this chance & if want to do research & change their school of taught will face many problems & onstacles but born Shias from birth were on right place but they are unaware from this blessing & don't receive good education 

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44 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I agree with most of it but I think born Shias have more chance than the others they are like kids that born in a wealthy palace so they don't know value of their position while other born Muslims don't have this chance & if want to do research & change their school of taught will face many problems & onstacles but born Shias from birth were on right place but they are unaware from this blessing & don't receive good education 

Shia are not born Shia..but have to earn Being Shia and have to embrace like everyone else. Some Shia will convert and some will revert and some will embrace.

There’s a lot more to being Shia than calling yourself Shia because your family is Shia. You are essentially in the same boat as so called revert or convert or born Sunni Muslims. You have to really fully embrace this thing for the pleasure of Allah and love of Ahlul Bayt. And we as Muslims have to embrace each other. 

 

 

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Imam Ali (عليه السلام) quote: do not inherit your religion , learn about it

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I never saw this thread, better that I didn't.

I came to Islam as you probably gather, from an atheist family, but I am still learning after five years. I don't want VIP treatment though, as brother AbdulKarim says, we just want to be treated like human beings. Too many times now I've been picked up and put down by born Muslims, treated like a celebrity and then dropped as soon as the person walks out the mosque door. Like some curiousity or some silly little toy in a shop. "Brother this, brother that". I just wanted people to treat me normal, not special, just plain normal. Not like a VIP, just like they would treat their kin or companion.

I don't want to say born Muslims are this or that, we are all, as humans this or that, and Allah knows best who is this and who is that. It would just be nice for us all to treat one another as they deserve to be treated, regardless of background, ethnicity and so on. After all, we don't take anything to our graves except the bones beneath our skin and the deeds on the scale. 

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If I may add a little balance to the thread. There is also a flip side, from observation/experience.

Just as not all born-Muslims are like this, there are a few reverts, again not all, who have a tendency to look down on the born ones, because they feel they have an authentic understanding free from assumed cultural practises of the born Muslims because they studied it rather than being raised in it. 

I get some get very zealot because it is new to them. Some eventually find a moderate position, some go extreme, as we have seen, and some even burn out and apostate because they went from one extreme to another too soon.

Though to be fair, this experience has been with reverts to the majority sect, who tend to get attracted to Salafism due to it being so wide spread and well funded.

But not our @aaaz1618 of course :grin:

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2 hours ago, aaaz1618 said:

I never saw this thread, better that I didn't.

I came to Islam as you probably gather, from an atheist family, but I am still learning after five years. I don't want VIP treatment though, as brother AbdulKarim says, we just want to be treated like human beings. Too many times now I've been picked up and put down by born Muslims, treated like a celebrity and then dropped as soon as the person walks out the mosque door. Like some curiousity or some silly little toy in a shop. "Brother this, brother that". I just wanted people to treat me normal, not special, just plain normal. Not like a VIP, just like they would treat their kin or companion.

I don't want to say born Muslims are this or that, we are all, as humans this or that, and Allah knows best who is this and who is that. It would just be nice for us all to treat one another as they deserve to be treated, regardless of background, ethnicity and so on. After all, we don't take anything to our graves except the bones beneath our skin and the deeds on the scale. 

Alhamdulilah, 

I totally know what you mean my friend and this is how it should be. When a Believer takes shahada to me they are Muslim. No revert or convert titles. And even though you thought you were an atheist, you were actually a believer all along deep down and Allah took you out of the darkness into the light. It’s the signal. It’s the reason why you accepted Islam. 

Allah knows the good in his believers and he knows who they are. This is what I was talking about in my topic thread called The two species: Believers and unbelievers. And guess what there are more like you out there. There are a lot of atheist who aren't truly atheist deep down and Allah knows who they are and only Allah knows who they are.  The same thing happens to a lot of born Muslims as well  because they too get caught up into dunya and lose themselves and Allah brings them from the darkness to the light. So we all can be reverts at times really. 

Insha’Allah Do your thing brother and never let anyone make you feel like you're second class outsider Muslim. Islam is for everyone and anyone can be a great learners and practitioners of this deen with sincere heart. 

 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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1 hour ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

If I may add a little balance to the thread. There is also a flip side, from observation/experience.

Just as not all born-Muslims are like this, there are a few reverts, again not all, who have a tendency to look down on the born ones, because they feel they have an authentic understanding free from assumed cultural practises of the born Muslims because they studied it rather than being raised in it. 

I get some get very zealot because it is new to them. Some eventually find a moderate position, some go extreme, as we have seen, and some even burn out and apostate because they went from one extreme to another too soon.

Though to be fair, this experience has been with reverts to the majority sect, who tend to get attracted to Salafism due to it being so wide spread and well funded.

But not our @aaaz1618 of course :grin:

Alhamdulilah, 

I get it. I have also met some westerners should say who came into Islam, but they brought their ego with them thinking that “hey I studied Islamic studies and Arabic in college” therefore that makes me better than the Muslim cab driver who has been practicing Islam all his life. Egoism in Islam can have its issues. 

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54 minutes ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

When a Believer takes shahada to me they are Muslim. No revert or convert titles.

This is an important question.

I know that it’s common to use modifiers like “conservative Muslim” or “Indian Muslim” or “revert Muslim” to give context if needed, but how long does the “revert” modifier last?

When does somebody stop being a “revert” and become simply “Muslim”? Is it a lifetime branding?

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40 minutes ago, Reza said:

This is an important question.

I know that it’s common to use modifiers like “conservative Muslim” or “Indian Muslim” or “revert Muslim” to give context if needed, but how long does the “revert” modifier last?

When does somebody stop being a “revert” and become simply “Muslim”? Is it a lifetime branding?

Alhamdulilah, 

Honestly it depends on which community you are in and what’s your status of money. I have noticed in most Pakistani/Indian communities they intermix better and that sense of convert revert stigma doesn’t last long. My good friend from college, he is Pakistani and his sister married a white brother and some of my African American friends who are converts married Indian/Pakistani sisters from over there. Those particular brothers intermixed into the community very well and are doing wonderfully. They are part of the community as just Muslim doing great work.  

In a Arab community this stigma of convert/revert could last a lot lot longer. I know a brother who has been working with Palestinian and Iraqi Arabs for years at gas stations owned by Iraqi Arabs and they still treat him like convert and replace him easily with new guys coming in from the Middle East. The Arabs don’t intermix well socially and Will keep you at Abd type status. As a matter of fact that’s exactly what they call you Abd which means Slave. 

Our communities should be way more diverse however and brothers working towards lifting each other up and intermixing and doing business together and crossing families. But if you are a convert or revert you will not break into that zone. They will marry your daughters but you are not marrying theirs if you are convert. Sad to say but it’s the reality. 

 

 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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15 minutes ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

  In a Arab community this stigma of convert/revert could last a lot lot longer. I know a brother who has been working with Palestinian and Iraqi Arabs for years at gas stations owned by Iraqi Arabs and they still treat him like convert and replace him easily with new guys coming in from the Middle East. The Arabs don’t intermix well socially and Will keep you at Abd type status. As a matter of fact that’s exactly what they call you Abd which means Slave. 

I think this a pan-Arab problem where black born or revert Muslims are literally expected to serve in one way or another and not demand anything more than just a “second row”. Muslims of darker skin colour are literally mistreated from the Maghreb through the Gulf to Asian countries. Even in Iraq the black brothers and sisters, especially brothers, are at times at disadvantage when it comes to jobs or even marriage prospects compared to the lighter skinned equivalents even from the same village. It is ridiculous and shouldn’t be happening at all within Shia communities. 

 

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24 minutes ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

Alhamdulilah, 

Honestly it depends on which community you are in and what’s your status of money. I have noticed in most Pakistani/Indian communities they intermix better and that sense of convert revert stigma doesn’t last long. My good friend from college, he is Pakistani and his sister married a white brother and some of my African American friends who are converts married Indian/Pakistani sisters from over there. Those particular brothers intermixed into the community very well and are doing wonderfully. They are part of the community as just Muslim doing great work.  

 

That's good to hear, I was of the mindset that subcontinent culture was less open minded than others. I hope there are many more examples of this intermixing and marriage. 

Edited by ireallywannaknow

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2 minutes ago, ireallywannaknow said:

I hope there are many more examples of this intermixing and marriage. 

Me too, it doesn’t matter if one is a revert or not (although de jure all people are born as Muslims), or if he is a black African, White European, an Arab, or from the subcontinent, Asian etc. at the end of the day we are all (Shia) Muslims on proper understanding of religion. It is ridiculous to see the world through the prism of skin colour. Sunnis have a long tradition of that, starting with the Umayyads but racism should be completely alien to the School of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

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