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In the Name of God بسم الله
Follower of Ahlulbayt

Are the Imams All The Same Person?

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Salam,

So a theological question which I believe many of us need to ponder over a bit more is the concept that the Imams are all the same person and that each of them would have done exactly the same thing as the other and the only reason that they did different things was due to their situations.

A usual question that is asked is— Why did Imam Ali (a) not fight the first three caliphs, then when he became caliph he fought Muawiyah and Aisha and the Khawarij, but then how comes Imam Hasan (a) when he was caliph did not fight, and he did the treaty with Mu'awiyah? And then of course is the question of Imam Hussain (a) and why he fought when he wasn't caliph which literally none of the other Imams did.

I think that maybe these can just about be answered by using the principle that when you don't have sufficient followers, you shouldn't fight:

Quote

 

Imam Ali (a) didn't fight Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthman because he didn't have sufficient followers.

He (a) did fight Muawiyah and Aisha because he did have sufficient followers.

Imam Hassan (a) did a treaty with Muawiyah because his army did not contain a sufficient number of trustworthy and reliable followers.

Imam Hussain (a) only initially wanted to fight Yazid when he was looking for followers, and when the Kufans betrayed him, fighting was not Imam Hussain's (a) goal.

 

 

But one incident which I believe makes the case that the Imams are different people and that they wouldn't have done the same as each other even if they had the same circumstances is the fact that Imam Hussain (a) disagreed with Imam Hassan (a) on the peace treaty with Mu'awiyah. The evidences for this can be read here

After establishing that the Imams are different people and they would have done different things even if they lived in the same circumstances, the next question should be....is this a problem? Does this mean they differed on usul al-deen? Does this mean they are not divinely appointed?

I think that one example in the Qur'an that sheds light on this matter, is this:

Quote

And when Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved, he said, "How wretched is that by which you have replaced me after [my departure]. Were you impatient over the matter of your Lord?" And he threw down the tablets and seized his brother by [the hair of] his head, pulling him toward him. [Aaron] said, "O son of my mother, indeed the people oppressed me and were about to kill me, so let not the enemies rejoice over me and do not place me among the wrongdoing people." (7:150)

[Moses] said, "My Lord, forgive me and my brother and admit us into Your mercy, for You are the most merciful of the merciful." (7:151)

In this example, we have two infallible (no major or minor sins) Prophets, Harun (a) and Musa (a). However, we see here that after the people went back to idol worshipping and when Musa (a) comes back, he is not pleased with Harun (a) at all to the point where he physically grabs him. However, we know Harun (a) did nothing wrong. It is only rational that if people are going to kill you and take your life, that one practises taqiyyah. However, we see here that Musa (a) disagreed with Harun (a) and he seized him. 

Both Prophets. Both divinely appointed. Yet they are still different people.

Now, some may object to this example and say that Musa (a) only seized Harun (a) before Harun (a) gave his explanation. After Harun gave the explanation as to why he did not fight al-Samiri, Musa (a) accepts that what he did was right. To this I would respond with the following

  1. Even if we were to accept that Musa (a) accepted Harun (a) did the right thing by not rising up after Harun (a) gave the explanation, the point is that it is clear that if Musa (a) was in charge, he would have fought the people and not let them worship the idol.  This proves that they are indeed different people and would have done different things
  2. Musa (a) asks Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to forgive him and his brother. Why did he do this? Clearly, if Harun (a) did nothing wrong, Musa (a) wouldn't ask for his forgiveness. This is proof that Musa (a) did indeed feel like Harun (a) made a mistake by not rising up against the people. So, it is proven that two divinely appointed people disagreed with each other, just like Imam Hassan (a) and Imam Hussain (a), but this is not a problem at all and it doesn't mean that they are not divinely appointed.

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2 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Musa (a) asks Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to forgive him and his brother. Why did he do this? Clearly, if Harun (a) did nothing wrong, Musa (a) wouldn't ask for his forgiveness.

What wrong Musa did? Why he asked forgiveness for himself? 
 

2 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

the point is that it is clear that if Musa (a) was in charge, he would have fought the people and not let them worship the idol.

If my aunt had moustache, she would be my uncle.

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2 hours ago, Guest Companion said:

What wrong Musa did? Why he asked forgiveness for himself? 
  

If my aunt had moustache, she would be my uncle.

He must of thought that he could have done more to stop the calf incident from happening. Could be other reasons though...

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21 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Musa (a) asks Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to forgive him and his brother. Why did he do this? Clearly, if Harun (a) did nothing wrong, Musa (a) wouldn't ask for his forgiveness. This is proof that Musa (a) did indeed feel like Harun (a) made a mistake by not rising up against the people. So, it is proven that two divinely appointed people disagreed with each other, just like Imam Hassan (a) and Imam Hussain (a), but this is not a problem at all and it doesn't mean that they are not divinely appointed.

Hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for both Imam Hassan and Hussain AS:

A man from Iraq asked him concerning the ruling of a Muhrim (a pilgrim in Ihram) killing a fly. He, Ibn Umar ((رضي الله عنه)), said: “The people of Iraq are asking about the killing of a fly while they have killed the son of the daughter of Allah’s Messenger ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) while the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has said: “They (I.e. Hasan and Hussain) are my two sweet basils in this world.” (Sahih al-Bukhari 3753)

Ibn Hajar ((رضي الله عنه)) said: The meaning of this is that they are from what Allah has honored me with and bestowed upon me, because children exude scent as if they are from the aggregate of sweet basils. (Fath Al-Baree 10/427)

Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri ((رضي الله عنه)) narrated thatAllah’s Messenger ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said: “Al-Hasan and Al-Hussain are the leaders of the youth of Paradise.” (Jami` at-Tirmidhi: Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 143)

A’isha reported that Allah’s Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel’s hair that there came Hasan b. ‘Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Hussain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came ‘Ali and he also took him under it and then said:

Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying) (Sahih Muslim: 2424)

The above hadith provide the evidence that there is no difference between them in the words of the Prophet Muhamamd (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

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9 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

 

Alhamdulilah,

Amir Al Mu’mineen (عليه السلام) didn’t fight Abu Bakr and Umar because it was immediately after the Physical death of Muhammad SAW.  Imam Ali AS was still dealing with the burial of Muhammad SAW while the usurpers were in the Saqeefah meeting Usurping control. 

Abu Sufyan came to Ali (عليه السلام) and said hey they are taking your rights and that he could provide all the men and camels that Ali need to fight them but Ali (عليه السلام) knew this was Shaitan and told Abu Sufyan no and asked since when did he become Muslim. You see if Ali would have fought at that time the overall establishment of Al Islam still in its advent would have created an unrepairable riff and would have destroyed Islam in the long run.  

The Imams knew fighting for power by force would have reduced Islam at that point to blood shed and conquering for power. The Imams were more about the spiritual and not power. They were rightly guided and didn’t play into the game of conquering for power or control. Ali Amir Al Mu’mineen (عليه السلام) only fought for the 100 percent pleasure of Allah in defending Islam. 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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Alhamdulilah, 

Hassan (عليه السلام) had followers but realized that most of them had taken deals and had been bought off and there really wasn’t any zeal to oppose that evil. Thus he cane to terms that making a treaty was better and the treaty was Alhamdulilah a brilliant treaty according to it terms and the situation Alhamdulilah. 

I was always baffled as a teenager about Hassan (عليه السلام) not fighting but once I learned more details as to why? Alhamdulilah I realized my lack of knowledge of the full spectrum of why he did it and the brilliance within the contents of the treaty. May Allah shower his blessing on Muhammad SAW and his Ahlul Bayt. 

Its not always a numbers game. If it was always about sufficient amount of followers The battle of Badr wouldn’t have never taken place. The bottom line is that they all effectively made the right decisions because they were rightly guided. This is how Allah would let everything play out through out time for a reason. 

 

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Alhamdulilah, 

Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) was called for help to come out to Iraq. He was invited out then back stabbed by the very same people who called for help. He didn’t really have an army to fight. He was accompanied by mostly family women and kids and a small amount of his followers. 

Anyway in the role and rule of two Prophets and two Imams one would always be active while the other is quiet. The Imam of the time being active and vocal why the other is quiet. And the Imams are all from the same light. 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for both Imam Hassan and Hussain AS:

A man from Iraq asked him concerning the ruling of a Muhrim (a pilgrim in Ihram) killing a fly. He, Ibn Umar ((رضي الله عنه)), said: “The people of Iraq are asking about the killing of a fly while they have killed the son of the daughter of Allah’s Messenger ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) while the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has said: “They (I.e. Hasan and Hussain) are my two sweet basils in this world.” (Sahih al-Bukhari 3753)

Ibn Hajar ((رضي الله عنه)) said: The meaning of this is that they are from what Allah has honored me with and bestowed upon me, because children exude scent as if they are from the aggregate of sweet basils. (Fath Al-Baree 10/427)

 Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri ((رضي الله عنه)) narrated thatAllah’s Messenger ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said: “Al-Hasan and Al-Hussain are the leaders of the youth of Paradise.” (Jami` at-Tirmidhi: Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 143)

A’isha reported that Allah’s Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel’s hair that there came Hasan b. ‘Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Hussain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came ‘Ali and he also took him under it and then said:

Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying) (Sahih Muslim: 2424)

The above hadith provide the evidence that there is no difference between them in the words of the Prophet Muhamamd (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

As always you bring traditions that literally don't even prove your point. Where in any of these reports does it mention they are the same person and every decision they made would be exactly the same had they had the same circumstances? Also, answer the point about the fact Imam Hussain (a) disagreeing with Imam Hasan (a) on the treaty.

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Salam,

Prophets and Imams are Actors and they are physically different.  They just follow and say whatever the Scripts descends from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to their heart and souls.  

They will listen and follow.

If there are two on them are present, they will behave accordingly (according to the scripts).  One will be leader, the other follow.  At the same time, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will allow and make them to behave like normal humans and having different point of views within "protected frameworks" and not misleading.  All in all there are lessons for other humans to learn in their behavior differences. We are social human beings.

The only time the differences between them are none is the spiritual content in term of Tauhid.  Only One Light exist in them.  Brightest in Prophet Muhammad and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).  Physically.

Surely we can learn from their human behaviors.

Because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allows Prophet and Imams to behave as normal humans and when we are physically with the Prophet or Imams, we can have conversation and express opinions with them.  We can check our opinions and learns when we are with them.

We can see how Musa(عليه السلام) and Haron (عليه السلام) behaved as normal human behavior would and we also learned how Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protected both of them. We also both were physically different.  Haron (عليه السلام) can communicate better than Musa (عليه السلام).  Both delivered same message...Tauhid (Light of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) while behave as normal humans.

So Tauhid is the Rope that unite us together.  And that Rope is Prophet and Ahlul Bayt.

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20 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Imams are all the same person

If by "same person" you mean "kullona Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)" then yes they all are. And what makes 12 Imams Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), is that they are the bearers of the "minniyat" of Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

20 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

each of them would have done exactly the same thing as the other and the only reason that they did different things was due to their situations.

I can see that you have built this question on assumption. So try to figure out the answer by assumptions which would not lead you to truth or perhaps anywhere.

Do you think that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) were unaware of "zibhin azeem"? Do you think that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) unaware of "zibhin azeem"? Every Imam follow the divine commands and act according to divine plans. Thats the simplest answer I can give even though I am sure that you will try to bring more assumptions.

 

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1 hour ago, Urwatul Wuthqa said:

If by "same person" you mean "kullona Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)" then yes they all are. And what makes 12 Imams Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), is that they are the bearers of the "minniyat" of Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

I can see that you have built this question on assumption. So try to figure out the answer by assumptions which would not lead you to truth or perhaps anywhere.

 Do you think that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) were unaware of "zibhin azeem"? Do you think that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) unaware of "zibhin azeem"? Every Imam follow the divine commands and act according to divine plans. Thats the simplest answer I can give even though I am sure that you will try to bring more assumptions.

  

I have explained what I meant by same person. Just re-read it.

Assumption? If by assumption you mean historical evidences, then yes, I have relied on assumption. And as always, thanks for not addressing any of what I said.

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11 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

And as always, thanks for not addressing any of what I said.

Most welcome! and as always you are failed to grasp the message as well the answer in my post. 

Wassalam.

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22 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Salam,

So a theological question which I believe many of us need to ponder over a bit more is the concept that the Imams are all the same person and that each of them would have done exactly the same thing as the other and the only reason that they did different things was due to their situations.

A usual question that is asked is— Why did Imam Ali (a) not fight the first three caliphs, then when he became caliph he fought Muawiyah and Aisha and the Khawarij, but then how comes Imam Hasan (a) when he was caliph did not fight, and he did the treaty with Mu'awiyah? And then of course is the question of Imam Hussain (a) and why he fought when he wasn't caliph which literally none of the other Imams did.

I think that maybe these can just about be answered by using the principle that when you don't have sufficient followers, you shouldn't fight:

 

But one incident which I believe makes the case that the Imams are different people and that they wouldn't have done the same as each other even if they had the same circumstances is the fact that Imam Hussain (a) disagreed with Imam Hassan (a) on the peace treaty with Mu'awiyah. The evidences for this can be read here

 

What is recorded in the history over the disagreement between Imam Hasan(عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) regarding peace treaty  with Muawiya is contradicted by the following authentic hadith.

Several of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from ibn Abi `Umayr from al-Husayn b. Abi al-`Alaa’.

He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: Can the Earth remain without an Imam therein? He said: No. I said: Can there be two Imams? He said: No, unless one of them were silent. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 442)      (Hasan) (حسن)

Narrated to us Muhammad bin Ibrahim bin Ishaq ((رضي الله عنه).): Informed us Ahmad bin Muhammad Hamadani: Narrated to us Ali bin Hasan bin Ali bin Faddal from his father from Hisham bin Saalim that:

I asked As-Sadiq Ja’far bin Muhammad ((عليه السلام).): “Who is superior, Hasan(عليه السلام) or Hussain(عليه السلام)? He replied: Hasan is superior to Hussain. I said: Then how come the Imamate has come in the generations of Hussain after him? And not in the generations of Hasan? The Imam said: Allah, the Mighty and Sublime wanted to effect the Sunnah of Musa and Harun in Hasan and Hussain ((عليه السلام).). Have you not seen that they shared prophethood like Hasan and Hussain shared Imamate and Allah, the Mighty and Sublime placed prophethood in the progeny of Harun and not in the progeny of Musa, even though Musa was superior to Harun ((عليه السلام).)? I said: Would there be two Imams at the same time? He replied: No, except that one of them may be silent and under the command of the other. And the other will be the speaking Imam for his counterpart. But as to whether there can be two speaking Imams at the same time? No. I said: Would Imamate be inherited between two brothers after Hasan and Hussain ((عليه السلام).)? He said: No, it will continue in the progeny of Hussain ((عليه السلام).) like Allah, the Mighty and Sublime has said:  And he made it a word to continue in his posterity. Thus Imamate will continue in his progeny generation after generation till the Judgment Day.”

Source: KamaaludDin by Sheikh Sadooq,Vol 1,Ch 40,H 9

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First of us is Muhammad and in the middle of us is Muhammad, and the last of us is Muhammad, whoever knows me perfectly. He is   on steadfast and upright religion  In this verse he says: "That is the upright religion" I explain this to Allah's mercy and thanks.Now I say Salman and Abazar! Mohammed and I were one light from light of Allah. The Lord ordered that the light, which is divided into two parts, to half of it, said be Muhammad, and said to the other half, be Ali .Therefore, the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said:' Ali is from me and I from Ali I am and nobody acquires it to me, except Ali.

http://www.ghadeer.org/Book/2610

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2 hours ago, elite said:

What is recorded in the history over the disagreement between Imam Hasan(عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) regarding peace treaty  with Muawiya is contradicted by the following authentic hadith.

 

I don't think there is a contradiction at all, just a misunderstanding of what is meant by silent Imam and talking Imam.

Imam Hussain (a) never said "oh see my brother Hasan (a) actually isn't the only Imam whose obedience is obligatory and really I am also an Imam, so you should not follow my brother but follow me, so lets go fight Muawiyah."

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