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Follower of Ahlulbayt

Are the Imams All The Same Person?

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Salam,

So a theological question which I believe many of us need to ponder over a bit more is the concept that the Imams are all the same person and that each of them would have done exactly the same thing as the other and the only reason that they did different things was due to their situations.

A usual question that is asked is— Why did Imam Ali (a) not fight the first three caliphs, then when he became caliph he fought Muawiyah and Aisha and the Khawarij, but then how comes Imam Hasan (a) when he was caliph did not fight, and he did the treaty with Mu'awiyah? And then of course is the question of Imam Hussain (a) and why he fought when he wasn't caliph which literally none of the other Imams did.

I think that maybe these can just about be answered by using the principle that when you don't have sufficient followers, you shouldn't fight:

Quote

 

Imam Ali (a) didn't fight Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthman because he didn't have sufficient followers.

He (a) did fight Muawiyah and Aisha because he did have sufficient followers.

Imam Hassan (a) did a treaty with Muawiyah because his army did not contain a sufficient number of trustworthy and reliable followers.

Imam Hussain (a) only initially wanted to fight Yazid when he was looking for followers, and when the Kufans betrayed him, fighting was not Imam Hussain's (a) goal.

 

 

But one incident which I believe makes the case that the Imams are different people and that they wouldn't have done the same as each other even if they had the same circumstances is the fact that Imam Hussain (a) disagreed with Imam Hassan (a) on the peace treaty with Mu'awiyah. The evidences for this can be read here

After establishing that the Imams are different people and they would have done different things even if they lived in the same circumstances, the next question should be....is this a problem? Does this mean they differed on usul al-deen? Does this mean they are not divinely appointed?

I think that one example in the Qur'an that sheds light on this matter, is this:

Quote

And when Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved, he said, "How wretched is that by which you have replaced me after [my departure]. Were you impatient over the matter of your Lord?" And he threw down the tablets and seized his brother by [the hair of] his head, pulling him toward him. [Aaron] said, "O son of my mother, indeed the people oppressed me and were about to kill me, so let not the enemies rejoice over me and do not place me among the wrongdoing people." (7:150)

[Moses] said, "My Lord, forgive me and my brother and admit us into Your mercy, for You are the most merciful of the merciful." (7:151)

In this example, we have two infallible (no major or minor sins) Prophets, Harun (a) and Musa (a). However, we see here that after the people went back to idol worshipping and when Musa (a) comes back, he is not pleased with Harun (a) at all to the point where he physically grabs him. However, we know Harun (a) did nothing wrong. It is only rational that if people are going to kill you and take your life, that one practises taqiyyah. However, we see here that Musa (a) disagreed with Harun (a) and he seized him. 

Both Prophets. Both divinely appointed. Yet they are still different people.

Now, some may object to this example and say that Musa (a) only seized Harun (a) before Harun (a) gave his explanation. After Harun gave the explanation as to why he did not fight al-Samiri, Musa (a) accepts that what he did was right. To this I would respond with the following

  1. Even if we were to accept that Musa (a) accepted Harun (a) did the right thing by not rising up after Harun (a) gave the explanation, the point is that it is clear that if Musa (a) was in charge, he would have fought the people and not let them worship the idol.  This proves that they are indeed different people and would have done different things
  2. Musa (a) asks Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to forgive him and his brother. Why did he do this? Clearly, if Harun (a) did nothing wrong, Musa (a) wouldn't ask for his forgiveness. This is proof that Musa (a) did indeed feel like Harun (a) made a mistake by not rising up against the people. So, it is proven that two divinely appointed people disagreed with each other, just like Imam Hassan (a) and Imam Hussain (a), but this is not a problem at all and it doesn't mean that they are not divinely appointed.

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Guest Companion
2 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Musa (a) asks Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to forgive him and his brother. Why did he do this? Clearly, if Harun (a) did nothing wrong, Musa (a) wouldn't ask for his forgiveness.

What wrong Musa did? Why he asked forgiveness for himself? 
 

2 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

the point is that it is clear that if Musa (a) was in charge, he would have fought the people and not let them worship the idol.

If my aunt had moustache, she would be my uncle.

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2 hours ago, Guest Companion said:

What wrong Musa did? Why he asked forgiveness for himself? 
  

If my aunt had moustache, she would be my uncle.

He must of thought that he could have done more to stop the calf incident from happening. Could be other reasons though...

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21 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Musa (a) asks Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to forgive him and his brother. Why did he do this? Clearly, if Harun (a) did nothing wrong, Musa (a) wouldn't ask for his forgiveness. This is proof that Musa (a) did indeed feel like Harun (a) made a mistake by not rising up against the people. So, it is proven that two divinely appointed people disagreed with each other, just like Imam Hassan (a) and Imam Hussain (a), but this is not a problem at all and it doesn't mean that they are not divinely appointed.

Hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for both Imam Hassan and Hussain AS:

A man from Iraq asked him concerning the ruling of a Muhrim (a pilgrim in Ihram) killing a fly. He, Ibn Umar ((رضي الله عنه)), said: “The people of Iraq are asking about the killing of a fly while they have killed the son of the daughter of Allah’s Messenger ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) while the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has said: “They (I.e. Hasan and Hussain) are my two sweet basils in this world.” (Sahih al-Bukhari 3753)

Ibn Hajar ((رضي الله عنه)) said: The meaning of this is that they are from what Allah has honored me with and bestowed upon me, because children exude scent as if they are from the aggregate of sweet basils. (Fath Al-Baree 10/427)

Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri ((رضي الله عنه)) narrated thatAllah’s Messenger ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said: “Al-Hasan and Al-Hussain are the leaders of the youth of Paradise.” (Jami` at-Tirmidhi: Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 143)

A’isha reported that Allah’s Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel’s hair that there came Hasan b. ‘Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Hussain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came ‘Ali and he also took him under it and then said:

Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying) (Sahih Muslim: 2424)

The above hadith provide the evidence that there is no difference between them in the words of the Prophet Muhamamd (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

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9 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

 

Alhamdulilah,

Amir Al Mu’mineen (عليه السلام) didn’t fight Abu Bakr and Umar because it was immediately after the Physical death of Muhammad SAW.  Imam Ali AS was still dealing with the burial of Muhammad SAW while the usurpers were in the Saqeefah meeting Usurping control. 

Abu Sufyan came to Ali (عليه السلام) and said hey they are taking your rights and that he could provide all the men and camels that Ali need to fight them but Ali (عليه السلام) knew this was Shaitan and told Abu Sufyan no and asked since when did he become Muslim. You see if Ali would have fought at that time the overall establishment of Al Islam still in its advent would have created an unrepairable riff and would have destroyed Islam in the long run.  

The Imams knew fighting for power by force would have reduced Islam at that point to blood shed and conquering for power. The Imams were more about the spiritual and not power. They were rightly guided and didn’t play into the game of conquering for power or control. Ali Amir Al Mu’mineen (عليه السلام) only fought for the 100 percent pleasure of Allah in defending Islam. 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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Alhamdulilah, 

Hassan (عليه السلام) had followers but realized that most of them had taken deals and had been bought off and there really wasn’t any zeal to oppose that evil. Thus he cane to terms that making a treaty was better and the treaty was Alhamdulilah a brilliant treaty according to it terms and the situation Alhamdulilah. 

I was always baffled as a teenager about Hassan (عليه السلام) not fighting but once I learned more details as to why? Alhamdulilah I realized my lack of knowledge of the full spectrum of why he did it and the brilliance within the contents of the treaty. May Allah shower his blessing on Muhammad SAW and his Ahlul Bayt. 

Its not always a numbers game. If it was always about sufficient amount of followers The battle of Badr wouldn’t have never taken place. The bottom line is that they all effectively made the right decisions because they were rightly guided. This is how Allah would let everything play out through out time for a reason. 

 

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Alhamdulilah, 

Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) was called for help to come out to Iraq. He was invited out then back stabbed by the very same people who called for help. He didn’t really have an army to fight. He was accompanied by mostly family women and kids and a small amount of his followers. 

Anyway in the role and rule of two Prophets and two Imams one would always be active while the other is quiet. The Imam of the time being active and vocal why the other is quiet. And the Imams are all from the same light. 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Hadith of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for both Imam Hassan and Hussain AS:

A man from Iraq asked him concerning the ruling of a Muhrim (a pilgrim in Ihram) killing a fly. He, Ibn Umar ((رضي الله عنه)), said: “The people of Iraq are asking about the killing of a fly while they have killed the son of the daughter of Allah’s Messenger ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) while the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has said: “They (I.e. Hasan and Hussain) are my two sweet basils in this world.” (Sahih al-Bukhari 3753)

Ibn Hajar ((رضي الله عنه)) said: The meaning of this is that they are from what Allah has honored me with and bestowed upon me, because children exude scent as if they are from the aggregate of sweet basils. (Fath Al-Baree 10/427)

 Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri ((رضي الله عنه)) narrated thatAllah’s Messenger ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said: “Al-Hasan and Al-Hussain are the leaders of the youth of Paradise.” (Jami` at-Tirmidhi: Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 143)

A’isha reported that Allah’s Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel’s hair that there came Hasan b. ‘Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Hussain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came ‘Ali and he also took him under it and then said:

Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying) (Sahih Muslim: 2424)

The above hadith provide the evidence that there is no difference between them in the words of the Prophet Muhamamd (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

As always you bring traditions that literally don't even prove your point. Where in any of these reports does it mention they are the same person and every decision they made would be exactly the same had they had the same circumstances? Also, answer the point about the fact Imam Hussain (a) disagreeing with Imam Hasan (a) on the treaty.

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Salam,

Prophets and Imams are Actors and they are physically different.  They just follow and say whatever the Scripts descends from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to their heart and souls.  

They will listen and follow.

If there are two on them are present, they will behave accordingly (according to the scripts).  One will be leader, the other follow.  At the same time, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will allow and make them to behave like normal humans and having different point of views within "protected frameworks" and not misleading.  All in all there are lessons for other humans to learn in their behavior differences. We are social human beings.

The only time the differences between them are none is the spiritual content in term of Tauhid.  Only One Light exist in them.  Brightest in Prophet Muhammad and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).  Physically.

Surely we can learn from their human behaviors.

Because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allows Prophet and Imams to behave as normal humans and when we are physically with the Prophet or Imams, we can have conversation and express opinions with them.  We can check our opinions and learns when we are with them.

We can see how Musa(عليه السلام) and Haron (عليه السلام) behaved as normal human behavior would and we also learned how Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protected both of them. We also both were physically different.  Haron (عليه السلام) can communicate better than Musa (عليه السلام).  Both delivered same message...Tauhid (Light of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) while behave as normal humans.

So Tauhid is the Rope that unite us together.  And that Rope is Prophet and Ahlul Bayt.

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20 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Imams are all the same person

If by "same person" you mean "kullona Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)" then yes they all are. And what makes 12 Imams Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), is that they are the bearers of the "minniyat" of Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

20 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

each of them would have done exactly the same thing as the other and the only reason that they did different things was due to their situations.

I can see that you have built this question on assumption. So try to figure out the answer by assumptions which would not lead you to truth or perhaps anywhere.

Do you think that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) were unaware of "zibhin azeem"? Do you think that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) unaware of "zibhin azeem"? Every Imam follow the divine commands and act according to divine plans. Thats the simplest answer I can give even though I am sure that you will try to bring more assumptions.

 

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1 hour ago, Urwatul Wuthqa said:

If by "same person" you mean "kullona Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)" then yes they all are. And what makes 12 Imams Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), is that they are the bearers of the "minniyat" of Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

I can see that you have built this question on assumption. So try to figure out the answer by assumptions which would not lead you to truth or perhaps anywhere.

 Do you think that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) were unaware of "zibhin azeem"? Do you think that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) unaware of "zibhin azeem"? Every Imam follow the divine commands and act according to divine plans. Thats the simplest answer I can give even though I am sure that you will try to bring more assumptions.

  

I have explained what I meant by same person. Just re-read it.

Assumption? If by assumption you mean historical evidences, then yes, I have relied on assumption. And as always, thanks for not addressing any of what I said.

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11 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

And as always, thanks for not addressing any of what I said.

Most welcome! and as always you are failed to grasp the message as well the answer in my post. 

Wassalam.

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22 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Salam,

So a theological question which I believe many of us need to ponder over a bit more is the concept that the Imams are all the same person and that each of them would have done exactly the same thing as the other and the only reason that they did different things was due to their situations.

A usual question that is asked is— Why did Imam Ali (a) not fight the first three caliphs, then when he became caliph he fought Muawiyah and Aisha and the Khawarij, but then how comes Imam Hasan (a) when he was caliph did not fight, and he did the treaty with Mu'awiyah? And then of course is the question of Imam Hussain (a) and why he fought when he wasn't caliph which literally none of the other Imams did.

I think that maybe these can just about be answered by using the principle that when you don't have sufficient followers, you shouldn't fight:

 

But one incident which I believe makes the case that the Imams are different people and that they wouldn't have done the same as each other even if they had the same circumstances is the fact that Imam Hussain (a) disagreed with Imam Hassan (a) on the peace treaty with Mu'awiyah. The evidences for this can be read here

 

What is recorded in the history over the disagreement between Imam Hasan(عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) regarding peace treaty  with Muawiya is contradicted by the following authentic hadith.

Several of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from ibn Abi `Umayr from al-Husayn b. Abi al-`Alaa’.

He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: Can the Earth remain without an Imam therein? He said: No. I said: Can there be two Imams? He said: No, unless one of them were silent. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 442)      (Hasan) (حسن)

Narrated to us Muhammad bin Ibrahim bin Ishaq ((رضي الله عنه).): Informed us Ahmad bin Muhammad Hamadani: Narrated to us Ali bin Hasan bin Ali bin Faddal from his father from Hisham bin Saalim that:

I asked As-Sadiq Ja’far bin Muhammad ((عليه السلام).): “Who is superior, Hasan(عليه السلام) or Hussain(عليه السلام)? He replied: Hasan is superior to Hussain. I said: Then how come the Imamate has come in the generations of Hussain after him? And not in the generations of Hasan? The Imam said: Allah, the Mighty and Sublime wanted to effect the Sunnah of Musa and Harun in Hasan and Hussain ((عليه السلام).). Have you not seen that they shared prophethood like Hasan and Hussain shared Imamate and Allah, the Mighty and Sublime placed prophethood in the progeny of Harun and not in the progeny of Musa, even though Musa was superior to Harun ((عليه السلام).)? I said: Would there be two Imams at the same time? He replied: No, except that one of them may be silent and under the command of the other. And the other will be the speaking Imam for his counterpart. But as to whether there can be two speaking Imams at the same time? No. I said: Would Imamate be inherited between two brothers after Hasan and Hussain ((عليه السلام).)? He said: No, it will continue in the progeny of Hussain ((عليه السلام).) like Allah, the Mighty and Sublime has said:  And he made it a word to continue in his posterity. Thus Imamate will continue in his progeny generation after generation till the Judgment Day.”

Source: KamaaludDin by Sheikh Sadooq,Vol 1,Ch 40,H 9

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2 hours ago, elite said:

What is recorded in the history over the disagreement between Imam Hasan(عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) regarding peace treaty  with Muawiya is contradicted by the following authentic hadith.

 

I don't think there is a contradiction at all, just a misunderstanding of what is meant by silent Imam and talking Imam.

Imam Hussain (a) never said "oh see my brother Hasan (a) actually isn't the only Imam whose obedience is obligatory and really I am also an Imam, so you should not follow my brother but follow me, so lets go fight Muawiyah."

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On 5/17/2019 at 12:17 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Imam Ali (a) didn't fight Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthman because he didn't have sufficient followers.

 

These three must be thankful to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) that he never raised his sword against them. Otherwise you will see them running like Amr bin Al-As ran from the battle of Siffin. 

Secondly, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) fought with Marhab who was a famous warrior, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) fought with Amr bin Abdawad, a famous warrior etc, the three you named above are famous for something else for instance climbing the mountain, 2000 meters sprint etc. 

"he didn't have sufficient followers", by this assertion, do you want to protect Abu Sufiyan (L) who offered Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to rise against Abu Bakr & Co & assured of his complete cooperation? If it was a plan of God that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) should raise against the first one, you would have seen him fighting alone with no fear whatsoever.
 

On 5/17/2019 at 12:17 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

He (a) did fight Muawiyah and Aisha because he did have sufficient followers.

 Both of them were rebels at that very time (in Jamal & Siffin), to fight with them was his duty.
 

On 5/17/2019 at 12:17 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Imam Hassan (a) did a treaty with Muawiyah because his army did not contain a sufficient number of trustworthy and reliable followers.



  Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did a treaty with Kuffar too while some stupids think that he should have fight. Are you copying Umar? 
 

On 5/17/2019 at 12:17 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Imam Hussain (a) only initially wanted to fight Yazid when he was looking for followers, and when the Kufans betrayed him, fighting was not Imam Hussain's (a) goal

:) Here you do think that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was unaware of the term "Zibhin Azeem", you do believe that he was totally unaware of Karbala. 





  

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On 5/17/2019 at 12:47 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

theological question which I believe many of us need to ponder over a bit more is the concept that the Imams are all the same person and that each of them would have done exactly the same thing as the other and the only reason that they did different things was due to their situations

Wa alaikum as salam,

First of all, we Shia believe and have firm belief on this that all 14 are infallible and hence they are free from all sorts of even mistakes forget about wrongdoings of any sorts.

I also read other thread where arguments were going on between brethren based on assumptions, facts and figures.

We need to understand, that majority of historical work was written during the Oppressive regimes of Umayyad and Abbasid and hence we can’t take everything from these historical accounts on face value. Instead we need to weigh them against traditions available from Ahlebait (عليه السلام) and our own AQL. 

All Imam (عليه السلام) did/doing things as per order/wishes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and hence we can’t presume that they could/would have done similarly or differently based on circumstances. Rather than giving any example from life of Imam (عليه السلام), I would like to quote incident of Prophet Mohammed (saww) himself-the fountainhead of Ahlebait (as)- He asked the followers to be ready for pilgrimage and moved towards Makkah and after reaching close to Makkah they returned back without pilgrimage after signing the Treaty of Hudaibiya. 

This incident proves without doubt that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can change his order/wish to be performed/conveyed by same/different messenger/Prophet/Imam and we don't need to question all this. we just need to submit to His orders/wishes conveyed to us through His messenger/Prophet/Imam.

Now come to second question whether all Imam are same are different-

Once Prophet (saww) told us to believe that all of them Mohammed that means all of them are same in every aspect of life without any doubt. Merely having different way of living doesn't mean they are different instead they were/are doing their work as per wishes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in their lifetime.

 

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2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

1. I quote  the example of the Prophets who are all chosen representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) delivering the same message of Islam and they played their role in the different circumstances.The Qur'an mentions the following verse for them:

 آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

Shakir

The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course. (2:285)

 

The meaning of "We make no difference between any of His messengers" is explained in the beginning of the verse...they all have the same message and role. This verse has got nothing to do with the fact that they are the same people, and that every decision they made would have been the same had they lived in the same conditions. 

2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

 2.   The verse of purification and earlier mentions hadith are sufficient evidence that the virtues and characteristics of All Imams are the same  however they have played the role according to their circumstances.

 As per your thought they have difference then I may like to see a hadith that only one of two grand sons of the Prophet Muahmamd saw is chief of the youth of paradise and the other is not to confirm this difference that they are not the same.

 Are both not covered under the scope of the verse of purification?

Listen, you are again bringing traditions which do not prove ur point. Ayat tatheer proves infallibility (no major nor minor sins), but it doesn't prove ur point. Same with the hadith of the chiefs of the youth of paradise hadith, all that proves is...that they are the chiefs of the youths of paradise. It doesn't prove ur point

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1 hour ago, Urwatul Wuthqa said:


"he didn't have sufficient followers", by this assertion, do you want to protect Abu Sufiyan (L) who offered Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to rise against Abu Bakr & Co & assured of his complete cooperation? If it was a plan of God that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) should raise against the first one, you would have seen him fighting alone with no fear whatsoever.
  

What a miskeen you are. Sorry but I think its time you deserve some harsh language. I'm afraid you need to be taught a lesson.

No miskeen, by stating that Imam Ali (a) didn't have enough helpers, I don't want to protect Abu Sufyan, you deceiver. We actually have some reports which state that one of the reasons Imam Ali (a) didn't rise up was because of the lack of support he had. You going to claim these traditions support Abu Sufyan huh? Jahil

2 hours ago, Urwatul Wuthqa said:

 

 Both of them were rebels at that very time (in Jamal & Siffin), to fight with them was his duty.
  

Right, Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthman weren't rebels then according to you? Muawiyah was a rebel and therefore it is Imam Ali's (a) duty to fight him yeah? Why didn't Imam Hasan (a) fight him then? Stop digging a hole for yourself

2 hours ago, Urwatul Wuthqa said:

  Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did a treaty with Kuffar too while some stupids think that he should have fight. Are you copying Umar? 

You absolute joker. You  a typical example of someone who mixes arrogance and ignorance— a fool.

Firstly, you idiot, I never said Imam Hasan (a) did a wrong thing by doing a peace treaty with Mu'awiyah. Stop lying you dajjal.

Secondly, all I stated was that Imam Hasan (a) didn't have enough helpers. Guess what? Shaykh al Mufid said the same thing:

Quote

There remained no one to protect him from his unfortunate predicament except the close associates from his father’s Shī‘a and his own Shī‘a, and they were a group which could not resist the Syrian soldiers.

Are you going to accuse Shaykh al-Mufid of 'copying Umar'? You jahil

Thirdly, Imam Hussain (a) himself challenged his brother on the treaty. Now, you going to accuse Imam Hussain (a) of copying Umar and being stupid? 

What an embarrassment.

Note. I know I called this guy names....but when he implies that I protect Abu Sufyan and copy Umar, I do think this reply was needed to show how ignorant this individual truly is. 

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14 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

What a miskeen you are. 

Although I can respond to all of what you have displayed but in this month of patience, I will not going to lose it.

May Almighty Lord teach you how to deal with a "miskeen" and "jahil" like me!

I am in debt of these words and will return you back with double intensity when I deemed necessary.

Edited by Urwatul Wuthqa

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Dealing with "Miskeen":

Surah Al-Insan, Verse 8:

وَيُطْعِمُونَ الطَّعَامَ عَلَىٰ حُبِّهِ مِسْكِينًا وَيَتِيمًا وَأَسِيرًا And they give food out of love for Him to the poor and the orphan and the captive: (English - Shakir)

Dealing with Jahil:

Surah Al-Furqan, Verse 63:

وَعِبَادُ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الَّذِينَ يَمْشُونَ عَلَى الْأَرْضِ هَوْنًا وَإِذَا خَاطَبَهُمُ الْجَاهِلُونَ قَالُوا سَلَامًا

And the servants of the Beneficent Allah are they who walk on the Earth in humbleness, and when the ignorant address them, they say: Peace. (English - Shakir) 

A gift to all those who call themselves follower of Ahlul Bayt.

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6 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

 

You absolute joker. You  a typical example of someone who mixes arrogance and ignorance— a fool.

Firstly, you idiot, I never said Imam Hasan (a) did a wrong thing by doing a peace treaty with Mu'awiyah. Stop lying you dajjal.

Note. I know I called this guy names....but when he implies that I protect Abu Sufyan and copy Umar, I do think this reply was needed to show how ignorant this individual truly is. 

Alhamdulilah, 

How old are you? Can you not make points without name calling and insulting? You shouldn’t be trying to hold debates if you can’t compose yourself. You are making yourself look ignorant all by yourself without any help. Now you have to ask why are you this mad during Ramadan. You are insulting Muslims during Ramadan.

Ask yourself is that the type of Muslim you want to be? If this was a face to face debate you probably would have been slapped in the face by now because you too personal. Keep it classy. I’m sure your dad and mom have raised you better than what your displaying. Splash some water on your face and cool down and reflect. 

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8 minutes ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

Alhamdulilah, 

How old are you? Can you not make points without name calling and insulting? You shouldn’t be trying to hold debates if you can’t compose yourself. You are making yourself look ignorant all by yourself without any help. Now you have to ask why are you this mad during Ramadan. You are insulting Muslims during Ramadan.

Ask yourself is that the type of Muslim you want to be? If this was a face to face debate you probably would have been slapped in the face by now because you too personal. Keep it classy. I’m sure your dad and mom have raised you better than what your displaying. Splash some water on your face and cool down and reflect. 

Brother, 

This guy constantly makes irrelevant points and is an annoyance to anyone who wants to have a fruitful discussion.

I know maybe I was harsh, but surely you wouldn't be so kind if someone said you protect Abu Sufyan, and copy Umar?

Anyways, I used such language to teach him a lesson, which I fear hasn't worked. 

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43 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Brother, 

This guy constantly makes irrelevant points and is an annoyance to anyone who wants to have a fruitful discussion.

I know maybe I was harsh, but surely you wouldn't be so kind if someone said you protect Abu Sufyan, and copy Umar?

Anyways, I used such language to teach him a lesson, which I fear hasn't worked. 

Alhamdulilah, 

Masha’Allah brother! keep that same passion! It’s good that you have this passion. But you are even stronger and formidable when you can control your anger. You have an audience, but you lose your audience and the debate automatically when you lose your cool. Give a chance for the audience to decide who’s making better points. We can tell whose points are better.  

Shaitan is locked up so don’t make his work easy by blowing your whole Ramadhan over a religious discussion on the internet that no one else in the world cares about. You seem like a cool brother. Keep doing good work. 

Ramadhan Mubarak brother! 

 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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16 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

The meaning of "We make no difference between any of His messengers" is explained in the beginning of the verse...they all have the same message and role. This verse has got nothing to do with the fact that they are the same people, and that every decision they made would have been the same had they lived in the same conditions.

We believe in the words of Qur'an that "We do not make any difference between any of his messenger" who are chosen representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Thus the concept of any difference between the chosen representatives is rejected by the Qur'an even they faced different circumstances to deliver the message of the Islam. If you think otherwise the burden lies on you not on me please.

16 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Listen, you are again bringing traditions which do not prove ur point. Ayat tatheer proves infallibility (no major nor minor sins), but it doesn't prove ur point. Same with the hadith of the chiefs of the youth of paradise hadith, all that proves is...that they are the chiefs of the youths of paradise. It doesn't prove ur point

Listen I have asked the hadith for the fact that " As per your thought they have difference then I may like to see a hadith that only one of two grand sons of the Prophet Muahmamd saw is chief of the youth of paradise and the other is not to confirm this difference that they are not the same.

In the absence of such hadith ie words of the Prophet saw (so far not presented by yourself)  I do have right to reject all such conjectures that Imams have any difference and they are not the same by virtues.

Just denying the evidences from Qur'an and hadith of the Prophet does not mean your conjectures are true principle.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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We actually have some reports which state that one of the reasons Imam Ali (a) didn't rise up was because of the lack of support he had

I don't really need to say anything after this confession of "one of the reasons". Despite the fact that there are alsothe reports which mentions the offer of Abu Sufiyan to support Imam Ali (عليه السلام)

Quote

Muawiyah was a rebel and therefore it is Imam Ali's (a) duty to fight him yeah? Why didn't Imam Hasan (a) fight him then? Stop digging a hole for yourself

Time to quote few paragraphs from al-Islam.org

"History provides contradictory situations about peace and war but if someone wants to study the true ideas of the Imam (عليه السلام) about peace and war, then he should concentrate on the above sermon. Imam (عليه السلام) had shown his firm determination to fight on despite the disobedience, differences, treachery, many incidents, including the attack on his camp and the murderous attack on himself, provided the soldiers were willing to fight according to his command.

This means that whatever has been publicized about Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) himself wanting peace is not correct! The conclusion is that the true Islamic caliph, the grandson of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), being the Imam, did not deviate from the basic divine law which directs to fight the rebellious group till they return to the right path as commanded by Almighty Allah.

In accordance with this very firm Islamic law, his father had fought with Muawiya and the Imam (عليه السلام) also followed the same divine law step by step till the end.

Thus he was not satisfied with peace with Muawiya and had made it clear to the people that there was neither respect nor justice in it. However, when they wanted to accept it despite this explanation, the Imam (عليه السلام) could not force them to fight on. So, he took the bitter pill of the offer of peace by Muawiya."

https://www.al-Islam.org/Imam-Hasan-and-caliphate-qurrat-ul-ain-abidiy/maskin-madain

Quote

You absolute joker. You  a typical example of someone who mixes arrogance and ignorance— a fool.

Firstly, you idiot, I never said Imam Hasan (a) did a wrong thing by doing a peace treaty with Mu'awiyah. Stop lying you dajjal.

Secondly, all I stated was that Imam Hasan (a) didn't have enough helpers. 

Lets see firs the words;

Quote

But one incident which I believe makes the case that the Imams are different people and that they wouldn't have done the same as each other even if they had the same circumstances is the fact that Imam Hussain (a) disagreed with Imam Hassan (a) on the peace treaty with Mu'awiyah. 

I will discuss the evidence provided for this claim later. 

7 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Are you going to accuse Shaykh al-Mufid of 'copying Umar'? You jahil

Thirdly, Imam Hussain (a) himself challenged his brother on the treaty. Now, you going to accuse Imam Hussain (a) of copying Umar and being stupid? 

Challenged!!!! What???

A note to moderators: I would like to see what you will do to this person who have insulted me and have said the highlighted words for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). Either set me free to teach him a lesson in return or take action please.

Furthermore, I just want to say the following in my own language:

ناکام تمنا دل، اس سوچ میں رہتا ہے

یوں ہوتا تو کیا ہوتا، یوں ہوتا تو کیا ہوتا

 

 

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On 5/17/2019 at 12:17 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

the fact that Imam Hussain (a) disagreed with Imam Hassan (a) on the peace treaty with Mu'awiyah. The evidences for this can be read here

Now I can understand who is behind this whole thing!!

Anyway, the so called "evidence" has been refuted if people just see the quoted parts (before & after) by brother @S.M.H.A.

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Imam Hussain (a) himself challenged his brother on the treaty.

Some people express their "nijasat" as well as "khabathat" in this way. Since they themselves are Yateem of Abu Sufiyan and copy Umar, they think that even Imams behave like them. 

What a rijs such mentality is!!! Thinking that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was unaware of his duty & behavior towards the Imam of time. To "Challenge" the Ulil Amr (Imam of time), is not the way & teaching of Ahlul Bayt asws. 

It is however a sunnat of Umar. And history of hudaybiyah mentions how he challenged the peace treaty done by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

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Among the followers of the Prophet, however, the Treaty of Hudaybiyya was to produce some violent allergic reactions. Oddly, just like the pagans of Makkah, the “chauvinists” in the Muslim camp also equated it with “surrender.” They were led by Umar bin al-Khattab. He considered its terms “dishonorable,” and he was so much distressed by them that he turned to Abu Bakr for answers to his questions, and the following exchange took place between them:

Umar: Is he (Muhammad) or is he not the Messenger of God?

Abu Bakr: Yes. He is the Messenger of God.

Umar: Are we or are we not Muslims?

Abu Bakr: Yes, we are Muslims

Umar: If we are, then why are we surrendering to the pagans in a matter relating to our faith?

Abu Bakr: He is God's Messenger, and you must not meddle in this matter.

But Umar's defiance only escalated another notch after the admonition by Abu Bakr, and he went to see the Prophet himself. He later said: “I went into the presence of the Prophet, and asked him: ‘Are you not the Messenger of God?' He answered, ‘Yes, I am.' I again asked: ‘Are we Muslims not right, and are the polytheists not wrong?' He replied: ‘Yes, that is so.' I further asked: ‘Then why are we showing so much weakness to them? After all we have an army. Why are we making peace with them?' He said: ‘I am the Messenger of God, and I do whatever He commands me to do.'“

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You refuted your own argument regarding the Verse in the Qur'an and then as your secondary proof, you relied on a historical source that is completely non-binding to us believers to try and disprove this belief.

Not saying I affirm or deny it, but please try better. 

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3 - أحمد بن محمد، عن محمد بن الحسن، عن علي بن إسماعيل، عن صفوان بن يحيى، عن ابن مسكان، عن الحارث بن المغيرة، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: سمعته يقول: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: نحن في الامر والفهم والحلال والحرام نجري مجرى واحد، فأما رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وعلي عليه السلام فلهما فضلهما.

H 728, Ch. 58, h 3
Ahmad ibn Muhammad has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan from Ali ibn Isma‘il from Safwan ibn Yahya from ibn Muskan from al-Harith ibn al-Mughirah who has narrated the following from Abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).). "We in the matters of commands, understanding, lawful and unlawful all are alike and the same. However, the Messenger of Allah and Ali ((عليه السلام).) have their own virtue and excellence."

(AlKafi, Vol 1, Part 4, Ch 58)

مجلسي حسن

@Urwatul Wuthqa

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8 hours ago, Sumerian said:

You refuted your own argument regarding the Verse in the Qur'an 

An assertion like this is pointless without showing how. Quite happy to be proven wrong btw

8 hours ago, Sumerian said:

 as your secondary proof, you relied on a historical source that is completely non-binding to us believers to try and disprove this belief.

 

Ajeeb. What do you mean by the historical source is non-binding? 

Do you mean it comes from non-Imami sources? If this is your reasoning, the you might as well reject most of history.  Also, Shi'I sources were given such as Abi Mikhnaf (who is a primary source for the battle of Karbala btw)

Or do you mean it comes in a non mu'tabar chain? If this is what you mean, then I'll say that this is as equally absurd. History is not looked through the same lens as Fiqh is looked into. If you were going to only accept mu'tabar by sanad reports, then again, most of history would be gone. Many aspects of the battle of Karbala would be gone. You wouldn't be able to prove the martyrdom of Sayeda Fatima (s) with this methodology. 

I would urge you to look at the evidences again brother.  Around 10 historians (Sunni and Shia) have recorded the incident of Imam Hussain (a) disagreeing initially with Imam Hasan (a) on the treaty. If you were to say that all of this is fabricated and wrong, I would say that we might as well reject the whole incident of Karbala. 

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1 hour ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

An assertion like this is pointless without showing how. Quite happy to be proven wrong btw

Ahh you quite clearly proved that Prophet Harun (عليه السلام) explained the situation to Prophet Musa (عليه السلام), and there is nothing to indicate Musa (عليه السلام) was still upset after the situation was explained to him.

1 hour ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Ajeeb. What do you mean by the historical source is non-binding? 

Do you mean it comes from non-Imami sources? If this is your reasoning, the you might as well reject most of history.  Also, Shi'I sources were given such as Abi Mikhnaf (who is a primary source for the battle of Karbala btw)

Or do you mean it comes in a non mu'tabar chain? If this is what you mean, then I'll say that this is as equally absurd. History is not looked through the same lens as Fiqh is looked into. If you were going to only accept mu'tabar by sanad reports, then again, most of history would be gone. Many aspects of the battle of Karbala would be gone. You wouldn't be able to prove the martyrdom of Sayeda Fatima (s) with this methodology. 

I would urge you to look at the evidences again brother.  Around 10 historians (Sunni and Shia) have recorded the incident of Imam Hussain (a) disagreeing initially with Imam Hasan (a) on the treaty. If you were to say that all of this is fabricated and wrong, I would say that we might as well reject the whole incident of Karbala. 

What is ajeeb is you are relying on a historical source with a couple unverified chains, coming from the words of a non-Imam, to prove a matter of aqeeda and not of tarikh.

This isn't a discussion of history, this is a discussion of aqeeda. 

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