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In the Name of God بسم الله
Follower of Ahlulbayt

Are the Imams All The Same Person?

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1 hour ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

You are confusing two matters - one is the actual law (which I am not debating in the case of an infallible) and one is its application. For example, there is a law that says it is haram to shake hands with women - but under haraj you can do it. Now you and I may be in the same scenario, but due to my personality, my perception, my experiences, the extent of my knowledge, my psychological state or limitations, I may believe it is an instance of haraj, but you may be stronger than me, more daring, or may even have certain knowledge that I did not have to factor into my decision, or you have gone through certain experiences in life such that you would say this situation does not constitute haraj. Neither of us have done anything wrong, because applications like these are left upon us to begin with since they are dependent on you and your understanding of things. In another scenario, you may be in authority and while I disagree with your tashkees and may even try to convince you otherwise, I would still have to listen to you because of the authority you have been given. This is what we are arguing - why is it not possible for two Imams to disagree even if they were in the same situation, and what is the necessity for both of them to have done the exact same thing if they were in each others position.

For example, in Islamic law, it may say it is prohibited to get into a Sulh with a transgressor who will usurp your rights, unless you are in a weakened position. Why is it not possible for Imam Hasan (a) to believe that they were definitely in a weakened position because of lack of support, whereas Imam Husayn (a) may have believed otherwise and that there is still a reason to fight Mu'awiyah and not get into a Sulh with him?

These things need to be properly researched. Is it known that they were given the same extent of authority at the same time or not, is it known whether both of them were even Prophets at the exact same time or not and if so then at what point was the second made a Prophet and what impact did it have on the previous Prophet, did they even ever reach a level where they were able to execute their authority etc. 

In the event that two people have different tashkhees, can they be both right and correct in the eyes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

1 hour ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

These things need to be properly researched. Is it known that they were given the same extent of authority at the same time or not, is it known whether both of them were even Prophets at the exact same time or not and if so then at what point was the second made a Prophet and what impact did it have on the previous Prophet, did they even ever reach a level where they were able to execute their authority etc. 

I would say the story of Yusuf (عليه السلام) and Yaqub (عليه السلام) seems to be good proof. But I see what you mean brother.

1 hour ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Fardh al-Ta'lim or Irshad al-Jahil is in the case of hukm of Allah, not in tashkeesat. This is even the ruling today. For example in al-Kafi vol. 3:

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ فَضَالَةَ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ: اغْتَسَلَ أَبِي مِنَ الْجَنَابَةِ فَقِيلَ لَهُ قَدْ أَبْقَيْتَ لُمْعَةً فِي ظَهْرِكَ لَمْ يُصِبْهَا الْمَاءُ فَقَالَ لَهُ مَا كَانَ عَلَيْكَ لَوْ سَكَتَّ ثُمَّ مَسَحَ تِلْكَ اللُّمْعَةَ بِيَدِه‏

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from Fadalah from ‘Abd Allah ibn Sinan who has said the following: “Abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said, ‘Once my father took Ghusl (bath) because of sexual relation. Someone said to him that water has not reached to a spot on his back. He said, “It was not necessary for you to inform me. (I wish) you sought to have remained quiet.” He then wiped that spot with his hand.’”

Imam Husayn (a) never disobeyed Imam Hasan (a) - he had a disagreement. A disagreement does not mean disobedience. 

Yes, but is it not a lack of imaan, if we say that it is from an Imam (عليه السلام) in a mawlawi issue because ultimately the source is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), or do you believe that not every mawlawi issue is inspired by Divine?

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12 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

This is quite deceitful and comedic. First, I was insulting that ONE individual because he implied I copied Umar and protected Abu Sufyan. Not saying what I did was right. but maybe give the context? And not just me, that particular user has been a constant obstacle to fruitful discussion for years on this forum. 

As for 'Mr....Tawheed313', I have no idea what you are on about :)  Was this a user you had personal beef with? Look, assuming things is a sin buddy. Another user on this forum also accused me of having another account, and their proof was because I highlighted some words in red. You probably don't have anything better proof then that yeah?

Odd people honestly

And you reap what you sow. I never insulted you, but I believed it is best to engage with you in a matter you understand very well. 

And you know who you are.

13 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Nice one, I was not aware of this verse. Looks like this example cannot be used as evidence that two infallibles can make different decisions in the same situation.

But still, the disagreement between Imam Hasan (a) and Imam Hussain (a) regarding the peace treaty is there. 

So half your thread has gone to waste. I'm glad you can agree when you are proven wrong.

14 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Takfir isn't a joke. 

lol

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12 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

 And you know who you are.

Yep....and its not Mr.. Tawheed313 like you accused me of. Maybe you should publicly apologise for accusing me of being a person I'm not?  That would be the moral thing to do...

 

12 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

 So half your thread has gone to waste. 

Wasted? How is going through arguments a waste? You and I both learned things in the discussion. Its not a waste at all. 

 

What is a waste is now you have gotten personal, and have publicly lied and accused a believer of something with no evidence at all. 

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt

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20 minutes ago, Ali~J said:

Salaam @Follower of Ahlul Bayt

The bottom line is, the Imams are infallible and everything happened in the way Allah intended it to be, including the fact that there are 12 individual Imams who have each bought something different to our religion and they are all known individually for their own attributes and life stories. 

No one is saying the Imams are not infallible (in the sense that they don’t intentionally commit sins). 

What we are saying is if they would have done different things, given they were in the same situation.

Wassalam

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt

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2 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Wasted? How is going through arguments a waste? You and I both learned things in the discussion. Its not a waste at all. 

At least you admitted I refuted your Harun-Musa argument. Alhamdulillah, there is some insaaf.

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1 minute ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

(in the sense that they don’t intentionally commit sins). 

Can they commit sins unintentionally? What's your belief? 
 

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1 minute ago, Sumerian said:

 At least you admitted I refuted your Harun-Musa argument. Alhamdulillah, there is some insaaf.

Yeah, well now its your turn...

Apologise to me and say that you were wrong for publicly lying about me. I will say now, By Allah, I have no idea who Mr. Tawheed313 is. 

Or are you too stubborn and up yourself? 

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4 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

What we are saying is if they would have done different things, given they were in the same situation.

Yes because Allah created them as individuals each with a different reason for their existence which is perfect. 

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3 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Yeah, well now its your turn...

Apologise to me and say that you were wrong for publicly lying about me. I will say now, By Allah, I have no idea who Mr.. Tawheed313 is. 

Or are you too stubborn and up yourself? 

Say sorry to @Urwatul Wuthqa first please.

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Just now, Sumerian said:

Say sorry to @Urwatul Wuthqa first please.

Why should I apologise? He implied I was protecting Abu Sufyan and copying Umar. I called him a few names like jahil, idiot and dajjal (a deceiver, ofc not referring to the anti-christ).

Pretty sure calling him an idiot is not really comparable to him claiming I protected the worst creation ever. 

 

And anyways, are you his Mom or something? lol

So, you aren't going to apologise for lying about me? No worries...

The sin is on you buddy

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2 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Why should I apologise? He implied I was protecting Abu Sufyan and copying Umar. I called him a few names like jahil, idiot and dajjal (a deceiver, ofc not referring to the anti-christ).

Pretty sure calling him an idiot is not really comparable to him claiming I protected the worst creation ever. 

 

And anyways, are you his Mom or something? lol

So, you aren't going to apologise for lying about me? No worries...

The sin is on you buddy

lol alright whatever you say :hahaha:

Not getting involved in this anymore, I did my job which was prove you wrong. lool

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13 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

 Not getting involved in this anymore, I did my job which was prove you wrong. lool

yeaaa ha no you didn't. First, I'm not a child like you who can't accept when he was wrong.

But the whole principle of 'the Imams would do different things given the same situation' hasn't been disproven, and you hilariously denied the historical fact of Imam Hussain (a) disagreeing with Imam Hassan (a).

Look, if you aren't very religious and you don't care much about publicly sinning, then thats fine. But if you do, u should apologise for making an accusation against someone with zero evidence. 

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt

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Another point is that if Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) has mentioned his "karahiyyat" towards the peace treaty, Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) too has mentioned his "Karahiyat" to it by saying to the people that "there was neither respect nor justice in it" . 

So there is no disagreement between them practically. 

Wallaho A'lam

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7 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

yeaaa ha no you didn't. First, I'm not a child like you who can't accept when he was wrong.

But the whole principle of 'the Imams would do the same thing given the same situation' hasn't been disproven, and you hilariously denied the historical fact of Imam Hussain (a) disagreeing with Imam Hassan (a).

Lol why is it hilarious? Since when is it wajib to accept a historical source and since when is it wajib to build a aqeeda on it? I would rather build a aqeeda on a dha'eef hadith from Al-Kafi than this historical report. 

No one uses historical sources to prove a aqeeda, in fact some ulama went as far as to say that to accept a aqeeda it should be proven through tawatur. But you wouldn't know that.

This report is not ultimate unquestionable proof from which we can then build a aqeeda upon. You had the Qur'anic argument but that was proven to be pathetic, and now you are hanging on to stuff like this. Humble yourself. 

And don't imply others are not religious when you insult people and then cry when others do the same to you. 

Edited by Sumerian

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23 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Lol why is it hilarious?

lol what a pathetic response...

23 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

 Since when is it wajib to accept a historical source and since when is it wajib to build a aqeeda on it? I would rather build a aqeeda on a dha'eef hadith from Al-Kafi than this historical report. 

Maybe you have memory problems, I'll remind you no problem. I am not trying to build aqeeda from this. Again, I am discussing a historical question with regards to the peace treaty. You are the one that needs to prove this principle. 

And its not a historical report. Its historical reports (10 historians mentioning it). 

23 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

 No one uses historical sources to prove a aqeeda, in fact some ulama went as far as to say that to accept a aqeeda it should be proven through tawatur. But you wouldn't know that.

Again, never brought up the historical fact of Imam Hasan (a) and Imam Hussain (a) disagreeing to prove anything.  The onus is not on me to prove anything. I simply brought this up to show that accepting this principle would cause us to either out right reject history, or make us somehow (mis)interpret this historical event in a way that fits the principle.  And btw, I did know aqeeda is proven through tawatur, you are assuming things again lol

23 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

 You had the Qur'anic argument but that was proven to be pathetic, 

Pathetic? Took you 3 pages to respond to a pathetic argument? And on the way you changed your own views as well.  

Quote

and now you are hanging on to stuff like this. Humble yourself

lol its not just me who is 'hanging' on and accepting history as it is, the most knowledgable brother on this forum is also 'hanging' on to this incident. In fact, the brother also made the comment after he finished providing all the evidences, that may Allah protect us from a fairytale religion. So, humble yourself

 

23 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

 

 And don't imply others are not religious when you insult people and then cry when others do the same to you. 

Again, very misleading. You've got a bad habit it seems. Mention what that particular user said to me first before I responded to him? Oh wait, what can I expect from someone who has the audacity to accuse others with no evidence.

And no you didn't insult me, you just indirectly did takfir (which you sort of clarified) and then accused me of being someone I am not. 

So again, either prove to everyone here that you care a little about the religion and that you don't put your ego ahead of it, and apologise to me and say that your accusation against me was completely baseless. 

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt

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