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In the Name of God بسم الله
Follower of Ahlulbayt

Are the Imams All The Same Person?

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3 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Ok, we have at least agreed on one point.

So there was a disagreement between two infallibles. Only once Musa (a) learned of the situation, did they agree.

I call that a misunderstanding. 

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14 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Because ijtihaad is based on different understanding of nass, while the Prophets (عليه السلام) and Imams (عليه السلام) are the one who narrates it. It is very different. 

The Prophet and Imams know of the hukm - through whatever means - that is tantamount to being the nass. There is a second step in which they have to carry out that hukm and that is what I am saying can be left to ijtihad and there is no issue with that. Our ijtihad is foremost in actually deriving the hukm from the extant nusus - we do not even know what the hukm is.

14 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Why would it be wajib to follow an ijtihaad not based on Divine inspiration?

It is not always wajib, but on many occasions it can be required to do so because that is how human life remains in harmony and without chaos when we follow certain social conventions. For example, the tashkees of a Wali Amr has to be followed, even though it is based on ijtihad and often times speculation, or the verdicts of a judge which are usually based on speculative evidence at best and so on.

14 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Two issues with this.

1) We know for a matter of fact that different Prophets existed at different times, and it is quite likely that they also were also at equal authoritative level. If we allow for them to disagree, then Allah's religion would be an in a battle of human intellect, and the people would not know who is the hujjah.

That has not really been proven for me personally.

14 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

2) You explained earlier that had the command of the Mahdi (عليه السلام) been mawlawi, it would have been a sin to go against it. Would it not be a sin for a Prophet or Imam to disagree with a mawlawi command given by a figure with more authority - like in the case of Al-Hasan (عليه السلام) and Al-Husayn (عليه السلام)?

Well for starters, it is not obvious that the command was mawlawi, and even if it was, it is not known Imam Husayn (a) understood it that way initially. Finally, Imam Husayn (a) ended up accepting it anyways once he understood he was in the wrong and that he should listen to his brother who is the one vested with authority. It may have been a moment of anger and frustration for Imam Husayn (a) and he reacted that way - hence we are trying to make the point that Imams were different personalities, they could react and do things differently even in same situations and scenarios. 

14 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

What is problematic is in effect we are left with a belief that we have had an application tableegh that is not wholly guided by Divine, and therefore why is it wajib to follow something not from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

There is nothing problematic with that. You are presuming every single instance of our life has to be some how vested in something Divine written on the Tablet or something, and not just that there are some portions of our life which are rooted in Divine legislation, while others are rooted in general divine guiding principles, while also there being a huge chunk of emptiness left for human endeavor.

14 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Right, but this is not the issue. Context matters, but we are asking if the Imams (عليه السلام) were in the exact same position, would they apply the hukm in the same way? This doesn't have anything to do with secondary anaween, because we are ignoring context on purpose for the sake of the answer to this question.

My point is that they could differ in the tashkees of these very 'anaween themselves even given the same context, because each of them is still limited by their human experiences and understandings - and they could be perceiving things differently. This is a very common human phenomenon and to take that away from the Imams (a) requires very strong evidence.

14 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Again, I ask, why is it wajib to follow an application that is based on simple human intellect?

This is very common in Islamic law and as well as social conventions. It is necessary to follow certain individuals who have been granted certain types of authority and their words or decisions are simply hujjah upon us, like the commands of the Wali Amr, the Qadhi, the Faqih etc. who make many decisions based on their intellect.

14 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Because why would a religion that is complete and perfect be left to human intellect which doesn't make the best decisions?

You need to explain what you mean by complete and perfect. If your understanding of perfection is that there needs to be an actual law legislated by God for every single instance of our life, then - as obvious as this sounds to a Muslim - you still need to prove this, and quite frankly, I do not believe in such a comprehensive view of religion and neither do our religious texts contain such sort of comprehensiveness. 

10 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

I can see why there is an ishkal but I don't find the view that only following the Imams (عليه السلام) in tableegh and ahkam as controversial. I don't know if it is correct, but I don't have an issue with it. 

Fair enough if you do not have an issue with it, neither do I, but that is definitely not what mainstream Tashayyu' would agree with today.

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34 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

He didn't agree to Harun's position, but it turns out there was no disagreement at the end, once he realised what's going on. So this means nothing.

Side point but...

since you have agreed that there was disagreement before Harun (a) explained the matter, the onus is now on you to prove where Musa (a) changed his view regarding the decision of Harun (a)

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36 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

If this is what you meant, then I agree.

Due to Musa (a) not fully understanding Harun's decision, he disagreed with it.

This is different from saying that that Imams would react different in exactly the same context.

16 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Side point but...

since you have agreed that there was disagreement before Harun (a) explained the matter, the onus is now on you to prove where Musa (a) changed his view regarding the decision of Harun (a)

I'm not sure if you are being contrarion on purpose, but I'm pretty sure I showed you that Harun (عليه السلام) was fearful that if he did confront them, then Musa (عليه السلام) would say he caused division among the Israelites.

This implies that Musa (عليه السلام) would not have supported a confrontation with them, if he knew their will be divide. This is a 2+2=4 matter I am not sure why you are still arguing.

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4 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

 This is different from saying that that Imams would react different in exactly the same context.

Why not? We can say an Imam did not understand a situation completely, and he disagreed with another Imam, just like here.

6 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

I'm not sure if you are being contrarion on purpose, but I'm pretty sure I showed you that Harun (عليه السلام) was fearful that if he did confront them, then Musa (عليه السلام) would say he caused division among the Israelites.

 This implies that Musa (عليه السلام) would not have supported a confrontation with them, if he knew their will be divide. This is a 2+2=4 matter I am not sure why you are still arguing.

There is no evidence that you have provided here at all which suggests Musa (a) changed his opinion. You have just showed Harun's (a) reasoning.

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18 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

The Prophet and Imams know of the hukm - through whatever means - that is tantamount to being the nass. There is a second step in which they have to carry out that hukm and that is what I am saying can be left to ijtihad and there is no issue with that. Our ijtihad is foremost in actually deriving the hukm from the extant nusus - we do not even know what the hukm is.

It is not always wajib, but on many occasions it can be required to do so because that is how human life remains in harmony and without chaos when we follow certain social conventions. For example, the tashkees of a Wali Amr has to be followed, even though it is based on ijtihad and often times speculation, or the verdicts of a judge which are usually based on speculative evidence at best and so on.

Right, but following a judge and wali al amr like you said is based on maintaining social order and prevention of chaos. But it has nothing to do with correctness of a'maal and correctness of viewpoints. How can we be certain that we will be rewarded for a amal originally based on speculation? Notice I said "originally", because this cannot be compared to maraje who can only work with what was given to them by the Imams (عليه السلام). So if the original amal is incorrect, where is the reward? Or do you believe that all the ijtihadaat of the Imams (عليه السلام) are correct and rewarding, and that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allows for this?

25 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

That has not really been proven for me personally.

So two Prophets of similar authority have never existed together at once in the entire history of Prophethood?

26 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Well for starters, it is not obvious that the command was mawlawi, and even if it was, it is not known Imam Husayn (a) understood it that way initially. Finally, Imam Husayn (a) ended up accepting it anyways once he understood he was in the wrong and that he should listen to his brother who is the one vested with authority. It may have been a moment of anger and frustration for Imam Husayn (a) and he reacted that way - hence we are trying to make the point that Imams were different personalities, they could react and do things differently even in same situations and scenarios.

This doesn't answer whether it would be a sin, even if he turned back from his earlier position, supposedly.

 

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9 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Why not? We can say an Imam did not understand a situation completely, and he disagreed with another Imam, just like here.

The situation of Harun and Musa mean nothing to this discussion, because the context and situation was different between them, hence the misunderstanding.

This isn't the same as two people in the exact same context, would they react different or not? Entirely different question.

9 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

There is no evidence that you have provided here at all which suggests Musa (a) changed his opinion. You have just showed Harun's (a) reasoning.

His reasoning is based on the fact that he feared Musa's reaction had he confronted them.

So was Musa pro or anti confrontation? It is clear he didn't want them to apostate, but also it is clear from his brother's words he wouldn't have been happy with division either. Otherwise why would he fear a reaction from his brother if he did exactly what his brother wanted him to do?

Again, 2+2=4 logic.

Edited by Sumerian

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26 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

The situation of Harun and Musa mean nothing to this discussion, because the context and situation was different between them, hence the misunderstanding.

This isn't the same as two people in the exact same context, would they react different or not? Entirely different question.

How are their situations different? They were in the same positions— Prophets of God, dealing with the same people, dealing with the same person (Samiri) and trying to fix the same problem (people worshiping an idol).

26 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

His reasoning is based on the fact that he feared Musa's reaction had he confronted them.

So was Musa pro or anti confrontation? It is clear he didn't want them to apostate, but also it is clear from his brother's words he wouldn't have been happy with division either. Otherwise why would he fear a reaction from his brother if he did what his brother wanted him to do?

Again, 2+2=4 logic.

 Again, this is not evidence. Harun's (a) reasoning as to how he thought Musa (a) would have reacted is not evidence Musa (a) changed his view.

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt

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Guest Aimmah
45 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Well for starters, it is not obvious that the command was mawlawi, and even if it was, it is not known Imam Husayn (a) understood it that way initially. Finally, Imam Husayn (a) ended up accepting it anyways once he understood he was in the wrong and that he should listen to his brother who is the one vested with authority. It may have been a moment of anger and frustration for Imam Husayn (a) and he reacted that way - hence we are trying to make the point that Imams were different personalities, they could react and do things differently even in same situations and scenarios. 

Quote

Brother , this is something I am confused about. Growing up I was taught Imams have knowledge except the day of judgement, and of course nothing compared to the infinite knowledge of Allah. I was told they have two forms, a human one but also a higher created light before the creation of all things - this is how they answer Dua. So how could it be possible that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) with the vast knowledge he had, the best understanding in the universe, could contradict, let alone be angry with Imam al-Hassan (عليه السلام) who was identical in this regard?

 

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Guest Aimmah

How can the Imams differ? If Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) tells us one thing, and Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) another, how could we know what to do? Isn't every thing they do, every step, from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

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13 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

How are their situations different? They were in the same positions— Prophets of God, dealing with the same people, dealing with the same person (Samiri) and trying to fix the same problem (people worshiping an idol).

Lol. Maybe due to the fact that when the incident happened, Musa (عليه السلام) was not there, and he only came in after the fact?

13 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

 Again, this is not evidence. Harun's (a) reasoning as to how he thought Musa (a) would have reacted is not evidence Musa (a) changed his view.

Again, this is evidence, unlike your unbacked statements. What Harun (عليه السلام) did was not with the intention of opposing or disagreeing with his brother, he believed what he did was correct and not contradictory to the wasiya of his brother who is his authority.

Add to the fact, where is the proof that Musa (عليه السلام) confronted them after he knew what they had done?

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5 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Again, this is evidence, unlike your unbacked statements. What Harun (عليه السلام) did was not with the intention of opposing or disagreeing with his brother, he believed what he did was correct and not contradictory to the wasiya of his brother who is his authority.

Sigh. Looks like this discussion isn't going anywhere. I asked you a simple question, and with all due respect brother, you haven't been able to answer it.

What Harun (a) did or what he didn't do or what his intention was or what it wasn't is completely irrelevant as to whether Musa (a) changed his opinion.

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt

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