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In the Name of God بسم الله
Follower of Ahlulbayt

Are the Imams All The Same Person?

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On 5/17/2019 at 7:52 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

As always you bring traditions that literally don't even prove your point. Where in any of these reports does it mention they are the same person and every decision they made would be exactly the same had they had the same circumstances? Also, answer the point about the fact Imam Hussain (a) disagreeing with Imam Hasan (a) on the treaty.

1. I quote  the example of the Prophets who are all chosen representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) delivering the same message of Islam and they played their role in the different circumstances.The Qur'an mentions the following verse for them:

آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

Shakir

The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course. (2:285)

Thus it is clear evidence that we do not make any difference among chosen representatives. If some on thinks otherwise then he/ she violates this verse of Qur'an

2.   The verse of purification and earlier mentions hadith are sufficient evidence that the virtues and characteristics of All Imams are the same  however they have played the role according to their circumstances.

As per your thought they have difference then I may like to see a hadith that only one of two grand sons of the Prophet Muahmamd saw is chief of the youth of paradise and the other is not to confirm this difference that they are not the same.

Are both not covered under the scope of the verse of purification?

Edited by Muslim2010

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On 5/17/2019 at 12:17 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Imam Ali (a) didn't fight Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthman because he didn't have sufficient followers.

 

These three must be thankful to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) that he never raised his sword against them. Otherwise you will see them running like Amr bin Al-As ran from the battle of Siffin. 

Secondly, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) fought with Marhab who was a famous warrior, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) fought with Amr bin Abdawad, a famous warrior etc, the three you named above are famous for something else for instance climbing the mountain, 2000 meters sprint etc. 

"he didn't have sufficient followers", by this assertion, do you want to protect Abu Sufiyan (L) who offered Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to rise against Abu Bakr & Co & assured of his complete cooperation? If it was a plan of God that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) should raise against the first one, you would have seen him fighting alone with no fear whatsoever.
 

On 5/17/2019 at 12:17 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

He (a) did fight Muawiyah and Aisha because he did have sufficient followers.

 Both of them were rebels at that very time (in Jamal & Siffin), to fight with them was his duty.
 

On 5/17/2019 at 12:17 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Imam Hassan (a) did a treaty with Muawiyah because his army did not contain a sufficient number of trustworthy and reliable followers.



  Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did a treaty with Kuffar too while some stupids think that he should have fight. Are you copying Umar? 
 

On 5/17/2019 at 12:17 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Imam Hussain (a) only initially wanted to fight Yazid when he was looking for followers, and when the Kufans betrayed him, fighting was not Imam Hussain's (a) goal

:) Here you do think that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was unaware of the term "Zibhin Azeem", you do believe that he was totally unaware of Karbala. 





  

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On 5/17/2019 at 12:47 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

theological question which I believe many of us need to ponder over a bit more is the concept that the Imams are all the same person and that each of them would have done exactly the same thing as the other and the only reason that they did different things was due to their situations

Wa alaikum as salam,

First of all, we Shia believe and have firm belief on this that all 14 are infallible and hence they are free from all sorts of even mistakes forget about wrongdoings of any sorts.

I also read other thread where arguments were going on between brethren based on assumptions, facts and figures.

We need to understand, that majority of historical work was written during the Oppressive regimes of Umayyad and Abbasid and hence we can’t take everything from these historical accounts on face value. Instead we need to weigh them against traditions available from Ahlebait (عليه السلام) and our own AQL. 

All Imam (عليه السلام) did/doing things as per order/wishes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and hence we can’t presume that they could/would have done similarly or differently based on circumstances. Rather than giving any example from life of Imam (عليه السلام), I would like to quote incident of Prophet Mohammed (saww) himself-the fountainhead of Ahlebait (as)- He asked the followers to be ready for pilgrimage and moved towards Makkah and after reaching close to Makkah they returned back without pilgrimage after signing the Treaty of Hudaibiya. 

This incident proves without doubt that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can change his order/wish to be performed/conveyed by same/different messenger/Prophet/Imam and we don't need to question all this. we just need to submit to His orders/wishes conveyed to us through His messenger/Prophet/Imam.

Now come to second question whether all Imam are same are different-

Once Prophet (saww) told us to believe that all of them Mohammed that means all of them are same in every aspect of life without any doubt. Merely having different way of living doesn't mean they are different instead they were/are doing their work as per wishes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in their lifetime.

 

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2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

1. I quote  the example of the Prophets who are all chosen representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) delivering the same message of Islam and they played their role in the different circumstances.The Qur'an mentions the following verse for them:

 آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

Shakir

The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course. (2:285)

 

The meaning of "We make no difference between any of His messengers" is explained in the beginning of the verse...they all have the same message and role. This verse has got nothing to do with the fact that they are the same people, and that every decision they made would have been the same had they lived in the same conditions. 

2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

 2.   The verse of purification and earlier mentions hadith are sufficient evidence that the virtues and characteristics of All Imams are the same  however they have played the role according to their circumstances.

 As per your thought they have difference then I may like to see a hadith that only one of two grand sons of the Prophet Muahmamd saw is chief of the youth of paradise and the other is not to confirm this difference that they are not the same.

 Are both not covered under the scope of the verse of purification?

Listen, you are again bringing traditions which do not prove ur point. Ayat tatheer proves infallibility (no major nor minor sins), but it doesn't prove ur point. Same with the hadith of the chiefs of the youth of paradise hadith, all that proves is...that they are the chiefs of the youths of paradise. It doesn't prove ur point

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1 hour ago, Urwatul Wuthqa said:


"he didn't have sufficient followers", by this assertion, do you want to protect Abu Sufiyan (L) who offered Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to rise against Abu Bakr & Co & assured of his complete cooperation? If it was a plan of God that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) should raise against the first one, you would have seen him fighting alone with no fear whatsoever.
  

What a miskeen you are. Sorry but I think its time you deserve some harsh language. I'm afraid you need to be taught a lesson.

No miskeen, by stating that Imam Ali (a) didn't have enough helpers, I don't want to protect Abu Sufyan, you deceiver. We actually have some reports which state that one of the reasons Imam Ali (a) didn't rise up was because of the lack of support he had. You going to claim these traditions support Abu Sufyan huh? Jahil

2 hours ago, Urwatul Wuthqa said:

 

 Both of them were rebels at that very time (in Jamal & Siffin), to fight with them was his duty.
  

Right, Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthman weren't rebels then according to you? Muawiyah was a rebel and therefore it is Imam Ali's (a) duty to fight him yeah? Why didn't Imam Hasan (a) fight him then? Stop digging a hole for yourself

2 hours ago, Urwatul Wuthqa said:

  Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did a treaty with Kuffar too while some stupids think that he should have fight. Are you copying Umar? 

You absolute joker. You  a typical example of someone who mixes arrogance and ignorance— a fool.

Firstly, you idiot, I never said Imam Hasan (a) did a wrong thing by doing a peace treaty with Mu'awiyah. Stop lying you dajjal.

Secondly, all I stated was that Imam Hasan (a) didn't have enough helpers. Guess what? Shaykh al Mufid said the same thing:

Quote

There remained no one to protect him from his unfortunate predicament except the close associates from his father’s Shī‘a and his own Shī‘a, and they were a group which could not resist the Syrian soldiers.

Are you going to accuse Shaykh al-Mufid of 'copying Umar'? You jahil

Thirdly, Imam Hussain (a) himself challenged his brother on the treaty. Now, you going to accuse Imam Hussain (a) of copying Umar and being stupid? 

What an embarrassment.

Note. I know I called this guy names....but when he implies that I protect Abu Sufyan and copy Umar, I do think this reply was needed to show how ignorant this individual truly is. 

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14 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

What a miskeen you are. 

Although I can respond to all of what you have displayed but in this month of patience, I will not going to lose it.

May Almighty Lord teach you how to deal with a "miskeen" and "jahil" like me!

I am in debt of these words and will return you back with double intensity when I deemed necessary.

Edited by Urwatul Wuthqa

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Dealing with "Miskeen":

Surah Al-Insan, Verse 8:

وَيُطْعِمُونَ الطَّعَامَ عَلَىٰ حُبِّهِ مِسْكِينًا وَيَتِيمًا وَأَسِيرًا And they give food out of love for Him to the poor and the orphan and the captive: (English - Shakir)

Dealing with Jahil:

Surah Al-Furqan, Verse 63:

وَعِبَادُ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الَّذِينَ يَمْشُونَ عَلَى الْأَرْضِ هَوْنًا وَإِذَا خَاطَبَهُمُ الْجَاهِلُونَ قَالُوا سَلَامًا

And the servants of the Beneficent Allah are they who walk on the Earth in humbleness, and when the ignorant address them, they say: Peace. (English - Shakir) 

A gift to all those who call themselves follower of Ahlul Bayt.

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6 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

 

You absolute joker. You  a typical example of someone who mixes arrogance and ignorance— a fool.

Firstly, you idiot, I never said Imam Hasan (a) did a wrong thing by doing a peace treaty with Mu'awiyah. Stop lying you dajjal.

Note. I know I called this guy names....but when he implies that I protect Abu Sufyan and copy Umar, I do think this reply was needed to show how ignorant this individual truly is. 

Alhamdulilah, 

How old are you? Can you not make points without name calling and insulting? You shouldn’t be trying to hold debates if you can’t compose yourself. You are making yourself look ignorant all by yourself without any help. Now you have to ask why are you this mad during Ramadan. You are insulting Muslims during Ramadan.

Ask yourself is that the type of Muslim you want to be? If this was a face to face debate you probably would have been slapped in the face by now because you too personal. Keep it classy. I’m sure your dad and mom have raised you better than what your displaying. Splash some water on your face and cool down and reflect. 

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8 minutes ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

Alhamdulilah, 

How old are you? Can you not make points without name calling and insulting? You shouldn’t be trying to hold debates if you can’t compose yourself. You are making yourself look ignorant all by yourself without any help. Now you have to ask why are you this mad during Ramadan. You are insulting Muslims during Ramadan.

Ask yourself is that the type of Muslim you want to be? If this was a face to face debate you probably would have been slapped in the face by now because you too personal. Keep it classy. I’m sure your dad and mom have raised you better than what your displaying. Splash some water on your face and cool down and reflect. 

Brother, 

This guy constantly makes irrelevant points and is an annoyance to anyone who wants to have a fruitful discussion.

I know maybe I was harsh, but surely you wouldn't be so kind if someone said you protect Abu Sufyan, and copy Umar?

Anyways, I used such language to teach him a lesson, which I fear hasn't worked. 

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43 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Brother, 

This guy constantly makes irrelevant points and is an annoyance to anyone who wants to have a fruitful discussion.

I know maybe I was harsh, but surely you wouldn't be so kind if someone said you protect Abu Sufyan, and copy Umar?

Anyways, I used such language to teach him a lesson, which I fear hasn't worked. 

Alhamdulilah, 

Masha’Allah brother! keep that same passion! It’s good that you have this passion. But you are even stronger and formidable when you can control your anger. You have an audience, but you lose your audience and the debate automatically when you lose your cool. Give a chance for the audience to decide who’s making better points. We can tell whose points are better.  

Shaitan is locked up so don’t make his work easy by blowing your whole Ramadhan over a religious discussion on the internet that no one else in the world cares about. You seem like a cool brother. Keep doing good work. 

Ramadhan Mubarak brother! 

 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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16 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

The meaning of "We make no difference between any of His messengers" is explained in the beginning of the verse...they all have the same message and role. This verse has got nothing to do with the fact that they are the same people, and that every decision they made would have been the same had they lived in the same conditions.

We believe in the words of Qur'an that "We do not make any difference between any of his messenger" who are chosen representatives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Thus the concept of any difference between the chosen representatives is rejected by the Qur'an even they faced different circumstances to deliver the message of the Islam. If you think otherwise the burden lies on you not on me please.

16 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Listen, you are again bringing traditions which do not prove ur point. Ayat tatheer proves infallibility (no major nor minor sins), but it doesn't prove ur point. Same with the hadith of the chiefs of the youth of paradise hadith, all that proves is...that they are the chiefs of the youths of paradise. It doesn't prove ur point

Listen I have asked the hadith for the fact that " As per your thought they have difference then I may like to see a hadith that only one of two grand sons of the Prophet Muahmamd saw is chief of the youth of paradise and the other is not to confirm this difference that they are not the same.

In the absence of such hadith ie words of the Prophet saw (so far not presented by yourself)  I do have right to reject all such conjectures that Imams have any difference and they are not the same by virtues.

Just denying the evidences from Qur'an and hadith of the Prophet does not mean your conjectures are true principle.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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We actually have some reports which state that one of the reasons Imam Ali (a) didn't rise up was because of the lack of support he had

I don't really need to say anything after this confession of "one of the reasons". Despite the fact that there are alsothe reports which mentions the offer of Abu Sufiyan to support Imam Ali (عليه السلام)

Quote

Muawiyah was a rebel and therefore it is Imam Ali's (a) duty to fight him yeah? Why didn't Imam Hasan (a) fight him then? Stop digging a hole for yourself

Time to quote few paragraphs from al-Islam.org

"History provides contradictory situations about peace and war but if someone wants to study the true ideas of the Imam (عليه السلام) about peace and war, then he should concentrate on the above sermon. Imam (عليه السلام) had shown his firm determination to fight on despite the disobedience, differences, treachery, many incidents, including the attack on his camp and the murderous attack on himself, provided the soldiers were willing to fight according to his command.

This means that whatever has been publicized about Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) himself wanting peace is not correct! The conclusion is that the true Islamic caliph, the grandson of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), being the Imam, did not deviate from the basic divine law which directs to fight the rebellious group till they return to the right path as commanded by Almighty Allah.

In accordance with this very firm Islamic law, his father had fought with Muawiya and the Imam (عليه السلام) also followed the same divine law step by step till the end.

Thus he was not satisfied with peace with Muawiya and had made it clear to the people that there was neither respect nor justice in it. However, when they wanted to accept it despite this explanation, the Imam (عليه السلام) could not force them to fight on. So, he took the bitter pill of the offer of peace by Muawiya."

https://www.al-Islam.org/Imam-Hasan-and-caliphate-qurrat-ul-ain-abidiy/maskin-madain

Quote

You absolute joker. You  a typical example of someone who mixes arrogance and ignorance— a fool.

Firstly, you idiot, I never said Imam Hasan (a) did a wrong thing by doing a peace treaty with Mu'awiyah. Stop lying you dajjal.

Secondly, all I stated was that Imam Hasan (a) didn't have enough helpers. 

Lets see firs the words;

Quote

But one incident which I believe makes the case that the Imams are different people and that they wouldn't have done the same as each other even if they had the same circumstances is the fact that Imam Hussain (a) disagreed with Imam Hassan (a) on the peace treaty with Mu'awiyah. 

I will discuss the evidence provided for this claim later. 

7 hours ago, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

Are you going to accuse Shaykh al-Mufid of 'copying Umar'? You jahil

Thirdly, Imam Hussain (a) himself challenged his brother on the treaty. Now, you going to accuse Imam Hussain (a) of copying Umar and being stupid? 

Challenged!!!! What???

A note to moderators: I would like to see what you will do to this person who have insulted me and have said the highlighted words for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). Either set me free to teach him a lesson in return or take action please.

Furthermore, I just want to say the following in my own language:

ناکام تمنا دل، اس سوچ میں رہتا ہے

یوں ہوتا تو کیا ہوتا، یوں ہوتا تو کیا ہوتا

 

 

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On 5/17/2019 at 12:17 PM, Follower of Ahlul Bayt said:

the fact that Imam Hussain (a) disagreed with Imam Hassan (a) on the peace treaty with Mu'awiyah. The evidences for this can be read here

Now I can understand who is behind this whole thing!!

Anyway, the so called "evidence" has been refuted if people just see the quoted parts (before & after) by brother @S.M.H.A.

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Imam Hussain (a) himself challenged his brother on the treaty.

Some people express their "nijasat" as well as "khabathat" in this way. Since they themselves are Yateem of Abu Sufiyan and copy Umar, they think that even Imams behave like them. 

What a rijs such mentality is!!! Thinking that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was unaware of his duty & behavior towards the Imam of time. To "Challenge" the Ulil Amr (Imam of time), is not the way & teaching of Ahlul Bayt asws. 

It is however a sunnat of Umar. And history of hudaybiyah mentions how he challenged the peace treaty done by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

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Among the followers of the Prophet, however, the Treaty of Hudaybiyya was to produce some violent allergic reactions. Oddly, just like the pagans of Makkah, the “chauvinists” in the Muslim camp also equated it with “surrender.” They were led by Umar bin al-Khattab. He considered its terms “dishonorable,” and he was so much distressed by them that he turned to Abu Bakr for answers to his questions, and the following exchange took place between them:

Umar: Is he (Muhammad) or is he not the Messenger of God?

Abu Bakr: Yes. He is the Messenger of God.

Umar: Are we or are we not Muslims?

Abu Bakr: Yes, we are Muslims

Umar: If we are, then why are we surrendering to the pagans in a matter relating to our faith?

Abu Bakr: He is God's Messenger, and you must not meddle in this matter.

But Umar's defiance only escalated another notch after the admonition by Abu Bakr, and he went to see the Prophet himself. He later said: “I went into the presence of the Prophet, and asked him: ‘Are you not the Messenger of God?' He answered, ‘Yes, I am.' I again asked: ‘Are we Muslims not right, and are the polytheists not wrong?' He replied: ‘Yes, that is so.' I further asked: ‘Then why are we showing so much weakness to them? After all we have an army. Why are we making peace with them?' He said: ‘I am the Messenger of God, and I do whatever He commands me to do.'“

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