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In the Name of God بسم الله
Guest YaBaqir

Were Imams Rasools but not Nabis?

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Guest YaBaqir

Salam

Thinking of 5:67 for example, the Rasool is told to clarify a great theme in Qur'an that he has been clarifying his whole life, but it's said, leave a message and conveyance that it reaches all generations. Whether the thaqalain hadith is directly taught by God or Rasool thought of it, doesn't matter as far "Risalah" goes, because it's not part of scripture which is Qur'an alone.  The word Baligh and Resalah here both imply that Resalah is more then Qur'an, it's the clear explanation (Sunnah) with Qur'an, but that's not all, as Mohammed is the universal Prophet, he did the event of Ghadir to convey thaqalain and Wilayah of his Ahlul Bayt to all generations.

And in fact, this is not the only place, but others for example that Moses and Aaron, they didn't reveal the Torah right away, it was AFTER they revealed the Torah, so they came initially as Messengers. Those were words they spoke but not all their message was necessarily scripture.

In fact, I've seen most of Qur'an emphasizes Messengers dialogue with people and the entire dialogue is considered conveying the clear message.

I know of hadiths that say Imams ARE NOT RASOOLS.

I know. So this is not what I'm asking for.

I'm asking for addressing the division of Nabi, Rasool and Imam.

The traditional division is that Rasool brings a book or shariah and so on and so forth. But let me give what seems to be to the be the case:

I've read the divisions in Alkafi etc.

A Nabi is one who has been revealed a revelation from God in form of scripture and that reception of the divine revelation is not something particular to himself, but meant to be as a scripture for people. So in this case, hadith qudsi although revelation, is not part of the Nubuwa.  The Nubuwa is in fact Qur'an.

Wahy from this perspective includes hadith qudsi and Nubuwa, that is all of Nubuwa is a Wahy but not all of revelation is a Nubuwa. For example, when Angels talk to Mariam, it's not Nubuwa. The same is true when Gabriel talks to Mohammed in things that are not meant to be scripture and the revelation that all humans must come to.

A Rasool is one with a message from God and conveys the revelation. Some parts of Qur'an are of Resalah (clear conveyance) but most of Qur'an is in fact despite it's clarity with respect to each other, in need of Sunnah.

So Resalah in fact, has two aspects: (1) The actually words from God (2) Words that help convey those words to understanding of people by the human Messenger.

In fact, not all of Nubuwa is Resalah nor all of Resalah a Wahy from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Some of the words in Sunnah are chosen by the Prophet's High intellect, that yes, are revealing the revelation and complimenting it, but at the end, it's his words.

As Nubuwa is highly needed to not mix falsehood with truth and scripture was needed, it can be concluded over all, Messengers left a legacy to testify to them and so were given scripture and the book. So if there is non-Nabi Messengers before Mohammed, it's probably an odd case where the Messenger was martyred before he can even start the legacy of Nubuwa and leave scripture.

Now a difference between Imammate and Resalah, is that an Imam may not necessarily be required to go the people and convey the clear truth maybe for two reasons: (1) The truth is already established, (2) The situation calls for Taqiya (guarding against oppressors).

In this sense while all Anbiya were leaders, it maybe, some were not Messengers for either of those two reasons.

Now I actually am inclining that Imam Ali to Imam Hassan Alaskari were entrusted the Balighal mobeen, and there is support for this. For example, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sending implies sending with a message, but this has two possibilities, sending to convey scripture from God or convey the message of God but in their own words. Now in Ziyaratal Jamiah Alkabeer, we say the Imams are in fact the chosen of the Mursaleen, but Musraleen didn't choose Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) so what does this mean? And we know Nubuwa for sure has ended, so it leaves them to be ones sent.

Some more support of this is 5:12, Captains of ship of salvation are implied to be Messengers, and then supported by another verse that they were sent Messengers with respect to covenant.

It can be said that the Mahdi however at this moment, is a leader, but not a Messenger, and his Messengership would start with his appearance.

Now for sure the biggest message and most important one humans will ever have to hear, is that of the Mahdi. However, he will revive the Qur'an and not bring a new revelation in this sense of scripture.

However, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has emphasized he never punishes unless he sends a Rasool. And it's obvious when you think of the Mahdi, he is conveying the Qur'an at a higher level then ever before and will be supported with clear miracles.

There is also the verse "O you Messengers..." which historically was used to emphasize the Imams were Rasools by a fringe Shiite group, my question is, what if these Shiites were the genuine followers of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) and it was understood in the wrong way. Obviously this Shiites were aware of ending of Prophethood verse and probably would not go against "the place of Aaron" hadith including "except there is no Prophet after me".

There is one more proof I can think of for this, is that, Rasool is never emphasized to have the role of revealing Qur'an, that is attributed to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). But the clear conveyance is the one and only one thing that required of a Messenger as a job of a Messenger to stubborn or ignorant people, then up to God to guide who he wants after, because God controls the hearts and Imams only act according to his permission in guiding humans in this sense.

The Rasool is emphasized to have been sent with these roles:

1. Warner

2. Good news giver.

3. Witness.

4. Caller to God (position of Imammate) by his permission.

4 is emphasized by his permission showing that this occurs only by God willing it directly and giving permission to be the guide. That is why Qur'an emphasizes the Guidance role of the Nabi is only for the Mutaqeen.

It seems the hadiths attacking the Shiites with thinking Imams are Rasool, it's as if Imams didn't even recognize this division as possible and didn't clarify it. 

That said going back to the last proof the Rasool is emphasized to have one and one role only obligated,  to convey the clear message and that includes Sunnah, that is 5:67 is incumbent although whatever 5:67 conveyed is not stated there meaning Sunnah is as important.

That said it maybe from this perspective, that although not Prophets (don't receive revelation in form of scripture to be held on to by people), the first 11 Imams were Messengers, and we await the message and most important message humans will ever hear, that of the Mahdi who will revive Qur'an but not reveal a new scripture.

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This was already discussed on this forum. The Twelve Imams weren’t messengers like Prophets, as they didn’t make changes or brought forth anything new, they carried on with the already established and revealed teachings in addition to safeguarding them from corruption after the death of the last Prophet. They didn’t bring any new revelations. 

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Guest YaBaqir
On 5/16/2019 at 9:48 PM, OrthodoxTruth said:

 as they didn’t make changes or brought forth anything new.<...>They didn’t bring any new revelations. 

  I'm trying to see what Rasool and Risalah mean in Qur'an. From what I can tell, Nubuwa means receives scripture from God and Rasool means one who conveys the clear conveyance.

Wahy includes hadith qudsi and Nubuwa (Qur'an) but Nubuwa (Qur'an) doesn't include hadith qudsi and so is not all the Wahy.

An example of non-scripture message is in fact, 5:67 - Ghadeer declaration is in fact part of Resalah but not part of Nubuwa but part of Nubuwa is explaining ghadeer declaration to be Resalah.

If there is any Balagh (conveying) on behalf of God, then it makes you a Messenger.

Another way to look at it, is Moses and Aaron were in fact Messengers to Pharaoh before being revealed the Torah (Nubuwa).  

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On 5/16/2019 at 10:01 PM, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

11-gavin.w700.h700.jpg

Oh Lawd, this thread title is just ammunition. They'll just love this.

That awkward moment when Wahhabis have evolved to use material against you that doesn't need ibn Baaz's approval. 

1zca19.jpg

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Guest YaBaqir
2 hours ago, starlight said:

Am I the only one who didn't understand a thing in the opening post?

Your response is usually indication a person can’t refute the content but doesn’t want to accept it.

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37 minutes ago, Guest YaBaqir said:

Your response is usually indication a person can’t refute the content but doesn’t want to accept it.

Lolz, no. I actually read it twice but couldn't understand anything. 

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Guest YaBaqir

The message doesn’t have to be new to be a Messenger.

It also doesn’t have to be Wahy or can be paraphrase of wahy in their own words as well.

5:67 is enough to show the truth about difference of Nubuwa and Resalah and Wahy.

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Guest YaBaqir said:

5:67 is enough to show the truth about difference of Nubuwa and Resalah and Wahy.

 

 

On 5/16/2019 at 9:19 PM, Guest YaBaqir said:

The word Baligh and Resalah here both imply that Resalah is more then Qur'an

Which verse was revealed after Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) acted upon 5:67 and announced the wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in the famous sermon of Ghadeer?

"Al Yowma akmalto lakum deenokum wa atmamto alaikum ne'mati" 

Have you considered what this verse would mean?
And what Qur'an Al-Hakeem itself is? 
 

وَإِنَّهُ لَحَقُّ الْيَقِينِ {51}

[Shakir 69:51] And most surely it is the true certainty
[Pickthal 69:51] And lo! it is absolute truth.
[Yusufali 69:51] But verily it is Truth of assured certainty.

وَإِنَّهُ فِي أُمِّ الْكِتَابِ لَدَيْنَا لَعَلِيٌّ حَكِيمٌ 
43:4


 

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54 minutes ago, Guest YaBaqir said:

5:67 is enough to show the truth about difference of Nubuwa and Resalah and Wahy.

 

This is verse 5:67

O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.

Are you sure this is the verse you meant?

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6 minutes ago, starlight said:

Are you sure this is the verse you meant?


Sister, As far as I have understood what he wanted to say is that "Wa in lam taf'al fama ballaghta risalateh" (and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message) the "message" here (I.e., wilayat e Imam Ali (عليه السلام)) is more than Qur'an itself. 

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Guest YaBaqir

Salam 

this is not to say Qur'an doesn’t have Wilayah of Ali just that 5:67 and the balagh of it and manifesting what has been revealed regarding Ali to all generations that is something that is a message.  Ghadir thaqalain message was necessary for humanity to see it in Qur'an.

Balaghal mobeen is the role of the Messenger and Nubuwa pertains to Qur'an.

The Imams also did the balaghal mobeen just they were not given a revelation in form of scripture.

Instead they spread the message of the Qur'an.

 

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