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In the Name of God بسم الله
Noor Taleb

Confusion about Oneness of God

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19 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

As in a Trinity or separate personas or "masks" like Christianity or Vaishnavism. (e.g. Father, Son and Holy Spirit or Vishnu, Krishna and Shiva.) I take it that you're not theologically inclined?

Bad argument, it is correct that there is nothing comparable to Allah but the main reason there are no partners is because He is omnipresent, ommidirectiontial  and self-sufficient. He has no need, is perpetually creating and as Imam Ali said:

^ Boldened part for @Noor Taleb

There is nothing remotely similar to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  So therefore, there is nothing to partner with because nothing shares His qualities. This is monotheism (belief in One God) in the purest sense   

Than you so much 

I apologize I am not so learned , I am just a layman but I keep logic simple so huge words kinda take time to fit in my brain :cry:

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23 minutes ago, Noor Taleb said:

Than you so much 

I apologize I am not so learned , I am just a layman but I keep logic simple so huge words kinda take time to fit in my brain :cry:

Read the first section of Sermon #1 from Nahjul Balagha over a few times, Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) explains it in a way which nobody else could express in such a way.

Spend time contemplating what the Qur'an says, what Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) says and what Imams Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) says. 

While I could write extensively long articles and essays on the subject, I cannot compare to what is expressed by these three sources of knowledge (Irfan) and wisdom (Hikmah). 

Edited by HakimPtsid

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22 minutes ago, HakimPtsid said:

Read the first section of Sermon #1 from Nahjul Balagha over a few times, Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) explains it in a way which nobody else could express in such a way.

Spend time contemplating what the Qur'an says, what Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) says and what Imams Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) says. 

While I could write extensively long articles and essays on the subject, I cannot compare to what is expressed by these three sources of knowledge (Irfan) and wisdom (Hikmah). 

WELCOME BACK!

LONG TIME BROTHER!

Since you have come..........

I would like to bother you  a bit ( plz don’t be mad) I kinda feel your'e getting sick of me 

There is a very good argument against athiesm that says the universe has a design there must be a designer sadly a fellow Muslim said that its wrong since a designer always make the perfect design, which the universe isn't example blind spot in the eye or people born diseased. I have no idea what to say to this.

I am truly sorry for how much I have bothered you! :( 

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Bad argument, it is correct that there is nothing comparable to Allah but the main reason there are no partners is because He is omnipresent, ommidirectiontial  and self-sufficient. He has no need, is perpetually creating

Of course, but it's not an argument I'm putting to someone who already knows. We all know Allah is omnipresent, omnidirectional and self-sufficient, but Noor Taleb is talking about people who deny God's oneness and so on, so my response looks at an angle they may sort of get, as opposed to telling them Allah is omnipresent and so on, which they either won't understand or do not believe anyway. Sometimes in order to make a person understand you have to speak on their level, even if you know the matter is far, far more complex or sophisticated.

Although I feel sometimes these people on Quora and the like just do what they do for the sake of reading their own words or hearing their own voices. I don't think they genuinely want their own beliefs challenged.

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1 hour ago, Noor Taleb said:

WELCOME BACK!

LONG TIME BROTHER!

Since you have come..........

I would like to bother you  a bit ( plz don’t be mad) I kinda feel your'e getting sick of me 

There is a very good argument against athiesm that says the universe has a design there must be a designer sadly a fellow Muslim said that its wrong since a designer always make the perfect design, which the universe isn't example blind spot in the eye or people born diseased. I have no idea what to say to this.

I am truly sorry for how much I have bothered you! :( 

You haven't bothered me, I enjoy it :grin:

Think about the implications of Atheism on a philosophical, cosmological and ontological level. Leave aside the typical moral and ethical stuff that Theists usually talk about (even though it is obviously incredibly important).

If I had enough time on my hands I could outline some of it's extremities, as every grand proposition has to be understood at it's extreme to understand it's merits (or lack thereof). Atheists just don't realize how deeply self-contradictory their position comes.

Historically, before the Revelation of Islam this whole debate (God vs no God) is debated quite well-knowingly in Greek Philosophy - between Plato (Idealism) and Aristotle (Materialism, inevitably). And Hinduism came to the crossroads of the consequences of both Dualism (Dvaita) and Nondualism/Monism (Advaita).

All of those positions by themselves (Materialism, Idealism, Dualism and Monism) all cancel each other out - however the Qur'an did not fall into this trap and as the lasting genuine Revelation actually provided the only rational and logical solution to it!.

Understanding the way these philosophical positions not only contradict but interact with each other is the best way to get grounding in not only the severely circular logic of Atheism but also the way in which the Tawhid of Islam exceeds all other ontological/philosophical positions about the universe (including the versions of Monotheism that the other two Abrahamic religions end up limited by). 

You can keep asking me questions all you want or even PM me if you like. Cheers brother :)

 

Edited by HakimPtsid

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8 hours ago, HakimPtsid said:

You haven't bothered me, I enjoy it :grin:

You can keep asking me questions all you want or even PM me if you like. Cheers brother :)

See, that's the manners of a true Muslim right there, masha'Allah.

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10 hours ago, HakimPtsid said:

You haven't bothered me, I enjoy it :grin:

Think about the implications of Atheism on a philosophical, cosmological and ontological level. Leave aside the typical moral and ethical stuff that Theists usually talk about (even though it is obviously incredibly important).

If I had enough time on my hands I could outline some of it's extremities, as every grand proposition has to be understood at it's extreme to understand it's merits (or lack thereof). Atheists just don't realize how deeply self-contradictory their position comes.

Historically, before the Revelation of Islam this whole debate (God vs no God) is debated quite well-knowingly in Greek Philosophy - between Plato (Idealism) and Aristotle (Materialism, inevitably). And Hinduism came to the crossroads of the consequences of both Dualism (Dvaita) and Nondualism/Monism (Advaita).

All of those positions by themselves (Materialism, Idealism, Dualism and Monism) all cancel each other out - however the Qur'an did not fall into this trap and as the lasting genuine Revelation actually provided the only rational and logical solution to it!.

Understanding the way these philosophical positions not only contradict but interact with each other is the best way to get grounding in not only the severely circular logic of Atheism but also the way in which the Tawhid of Islam exceeds all other ontological/philosophical positions about the universe (including the versions of Monotheism that the other two Abrahamic religions end up limited by). 

You can keep asking me questions all you want or even PM me if you like. Cheers brother :)

 

I apologize I still didn’t understand how to answer them back if they ask me the question I had posted 

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13 hours ago, HakimPtsid said:

Atheists just don't realise how deeply self-contradictory their position comes.

 

According to this link there are some 1.2 billion non-religious/ atheist people in the world. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

Whilst I don't want to digress from the original question, I would love to know why you believe that the position is 'deeply contradictory'.  ?

Always interested in finding out something new.

ws.

*

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Guest Dajjal

Stages of God's life:

God is Al-Lah < Pre-Emanation

God is Ahad = Universe

God is Infinite or Lahaniyah or Ayn Sof. = Multiverse or Infiniteverse.

Cycle repeats endlessly.

From this universe will come forth innumerable 'universes' collectively called Infiniteverse.

 

 

 

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On 5/19/2019 at 1:05 PM, Noor Taleb said:

Hey Some one told me that indivisible oneness is Quality not Quantity ie there is no one like Allah so why does Qur'an use argument like if there had been two gods then one would kill the other due to arguments. This is possible for only people who are in numbers of 1 and 2 

EXPLAIN 

Salam.

 

the verse does not say that:

If there were therein gods beside Allah, then verily both (the heavens and the Earth) had been disordered. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, from all that they ascribe (unto Him). 21:22

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On 5/31/2019 at 5:48 PM, eThErEaL said:

Salam.

 

the verse does not say that:

If there were therein gods beside Allah, then verily both (the heavens and the Earth) had been disordered. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, from all that they ascribe (unto Him). 21:22

Salam,

May I ask something?

Some body came up to me and said the following

God is the best so for example in the world there are 4 people and 1 is elected as king as he is the best of them.

This shows that even when God is one there are many others as well but he is one because he is better than the three remaining.

These three are the demi gods.

I have no idea how to answer such a concept because we know that there is nothing comparable to Allah but he says yea he is not comparable BUT to the  creation he made. I don’t know how to answer this at all.

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1 hour ago, Noor Taleb said:

Salam,

May I ask something?

Some body came up to me and said the following

God is the best so for example in the world there are 4 people and 1 is elected as king as he is the best of them.

This shows that even when God is one there are many others as well but he is one because he is better than the three remaining.

These three are the demi gods.

I have no idea how to answer such a concept because we know that there is nothing comparable to Allah but he says yea he is not comparable BUT to the  creation he made. I don’t know how to answer this at all.

If we say there are four people each person will be lacking something the other has right ? Or else they would all be the same and hence there would be no distingtion anyways that is there would be no more four people only one. But that is not he case. In fact all four of these seem to be limited in some way or the other from each other. Something must of limited them that thing that limited them is neither of the four. 

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11 minutes ago, Rohani said:

If we say there are four people each person will be lacking something the other has right ? Or else they would all be the same and hence there would be no distingtion anyways that is there would be no more four people only one. But that is not he case. In fact all four of these seem to be limited in some way or the other from each other. Something must of limited them that thing that limited them is neither of the four. 

I don't get the last line.

The thing is the argument goes as they 3 are God like I.e demi since they are almost like him but not quite.

How do I prove that they are 100% not like even IK limitation = not God but How do I refute demi God argument which makes it seem God is above all 3 but three are God like so demi gods?

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14 minutes ago, Noor Taleb said:

I don't get the last line.

The thing is the argument goes as they 3 are God like I.e demi since they are almost like him but not quite.

How do I prove that they are 100% not like even IK limitation = not God but How do I refute demi God argument which makes it seem God is above all 3 but three are God like so demi gods?

There is no such thing as demi God.

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29 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

There is no such thing as demi God.

how to explain this?

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2 minutes ago, Noor Taleb said:

how to explain this?

Demi-God can be used in many situations. Just check the different meanings and which one applies to your question. In Islam there is no such thing. So if you are debating with someone in abstract terms then I don't know an answer, if it is about Islam the answer is very simple in that demi-gods do not exist.

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1 minute ago, Aragaia said:

Demi-God can be used in many situations. Just check the different meanings and which one applies to your question. In Islam there is no such thing. So if you are debating with someone in abstract terms then I don't know an answer, if it is about Islam the answer is very simple in that demi-gods do not exist.

The one applied here is that God like 90% and 10% limitation 

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Wa alaykom salaam.  For something to be limited in a way that three things supposedly are at equal levels and they are all diffrent from each other. We have to ask what made them diffrent. Imagine if you had playdough you formed it into three shapes. Each would be diffrent from each other. But the thing that made each diffrent was neither of the three. That thing must be more perfect than any of the three as it has power and priority over the three. Therefore the three things are not God.

2 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

Salam,

May I ask something?

Some body came up to me and said the following

God is the best so for example in the world there are 4 people and 1 is elected as king as he is the best of them.

This shows that even when God is one there are many others as well but he is one because he is better than the three remaining.

These three are the demi gods.

I have no idea how to answer such a concept because we know that there is nothing comparable to Allah but he says yea he is not comparable BUT to the  creation he made. I don’t know how to answer this at all.

 

Edited by Rohani

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27 minutes ago, Rohani said:

Wa alaykom salaam.  For something to be limited in a way that three things supposedly are at equal levels and they are all diffrent from each other. We have to ask what made them diffrent. Imagine if you had playdough you formed it into three shapes. Each would be diffrent from each other. But the thing that made each diffrent was neither of the three. That thing must be more perfect than any of the three as it has power and priority over the three. Therefore the three things are not God.

 

Butttt my question still remains

How to explain there is no Demi God

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29 minutes ago, Rohani said:

Wa alaykom salaam.  For something to be limited in a way that three things supposedly are at equal levels and they are all diffrent from each other. We have to ask what made them diffrent. Imagine if you had playdough you formed it into three shapes. Each would be diffrent from each other. But the thing that made each diffrent was neither of the three. That thing must be more perfect than any of the three as it has power and priority over the three. Therefore the three things are not God.

 

What do you mean by the thing that made these three different was neither of the three 

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God IS. He described Himself to Prophet Moses as "I AM WHO I AM." Because God is the Creator of all things, we all know He exists to have created us. To deny the existence of God is rebellion against God. It is sin. In the Ten Commandments given to Prophet Moses, the First Commandment states that God is above all. "You shall have no other gods before me." - Exodus 20:3 There is NO other God beside Him. He created everything in the universe and beyond, including us. He reveals Himself to us as He wills. We can ague about His relationship with us; we can argue about His characteristics. But we can not define Him. We can only hope in our limited time on this Earth, in this lifetime, to know Him, to know what He is like. If we know why He created us, we are few among many, and we are blessed. If we please Him in this lifetime, we hope to be rewarded in the next life. And we will truly know Him then. King/Prophet David said, "As for me, I shall behold your face in righteousness; when I awake, I shall be satisfied with your likeness."  - Psalm 17:15

The Chritian belief in God is monotheistic. But we view God through the lens of Trinity (with personhood: Father, Son and Holy Spirit), which does not change His existence as the One God, alone. In Deuteronomy 6:4 "The LORD our God, the LORD is one," the Hebrew word for one is "echad" which is often used as a composite unity. For example, male and female become one (echad) flesh, a composite of two. The Christian worldview (as explained by Nabeel Qureshi in his book, No God but one: Allah or Jesus?) "...is the one God, Yahweh. He exists as three persons who love each other perfectly. Thus, the one God is love in his very essence. Out of this love, God created mankind in his image, that God might love man and man might love God."

Nabeel Qureshi, No God but one: Allah or Jesus? (Grand Rapids:Zondervan, 2016), 35.

Peace and blessings,

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3 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

Butttt my question still remains

How to explain there is no Demi God

Salam,

God is “incomparably” great.  The key word here is “incomparable”.  This means that He is NOT even “greater than” anything else.  To say that God is “greater” is itself a limitation for that is a comparison.  So God is neither “lesser than” nor “greater than”.  Rather, God is incomparably and absolutely great.  

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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3 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

How to explain there is no Demi God

How can God be partial or half? God is indivisibly One (Ahad), therefore no such thing as demi-God exists.

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7 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Salam,

God is “incomparably” great.  The key word here is “incomparable”.  This means that He is NOT even “greater than” anything else.  To say that God is “greater” is itself a limitation for that is a comparison.  So God is neither “lesser than” nor “greater than”.  Rather, God is incomparably and absolutely great.  

 

May Allah bless you 

thank you brother 

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On 5/14/2019 at 2:52 AM, Noor Taleb said:

Dear All I’m new to this forum and I’m very much confused there was a person arguing against oneness of God using these logics that I can’t seem to refute please help me.

https://www.quora.com/Do-Hindus-believe-in-one-God

read the post by shravan Prabhu it highlights three main 1) if God is infinite he can’t be captured in images he should not be captured in words as well

2) God is selfish as being one is ?

3) One exists because of many and God is jealous and insecure that people will worship other gods and they will find other ones he knows they are so he is jealous 

4) if God is one you are materially restricting him to be stand alone entity read and stuff read the post please !! Help me!!!

 

1. God is infinite in words as well, it is said in Qur'an: "Even if all trees be pen and all seas be ink and there be seven seas to add them, the name of your lord will not be fully praised"....It shows our incapability that we consider that this one word of God is limited, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is one but his power in infinite and everyone that describes him by one word such God, if he thinks that he has understood this one world God is mistaken because it contains infinite meanings and all beautiful qualities for which you do not have time to explain and if you do you will die without completing his all meanings concealed within such word.

2/ Being one does not define that it is selfish, it defines that others are weak that they cannot come into being without his permission. 

3) One is distinguishable from none and not from many. For example: - If there are so many people in a room, you would say that there are many people in the room and will not say that there are one and many people, but if there is no one in the room, you would say that there is there is none in the room. But if there be one in the room, you would say there is none in the room except this one. And, God is not insecure but knowledgeable, just and punishes on evidence whatever he created which you have regarded as partner with Him, He (عزّ وجلّ) has not complained about worshiping others than Him except on the ground that they are limited and are they do not deserve to be called God as anything which is limited is not God, so that guy is probably trying that God may give someone respect without merit lolz for that.

4. Let us understand this, Universe is one in its essence but cannot be restrict it by your brain as it expands both at micro level and macro level that is if you start from grain, go on counting bigger bodies than grain, you will exhaust but it will not end, and like wise if you start from grain and go out counting smaller bodies that is atom and sub-atomic particle you will end. Since you cannot limit the boundaries of universe, how could you restrict him ?

Edited by Flying_Eagle

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5 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

1. God is infinite in words as well, it is said in Qur'an: "Even if all trees be pen and all seas be ink and there be seven seas to add them, the name of your lord will not be fully praised"....It shows our incapability that we consider that this one word of God is limited, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is one but his power in infinite and everyone that describes him by one word such God, if he thinks that he has understood this one world God is mistaken because it contains infinite meanings and all beautiful qualities for which you do not have time to explain and if you do you will die without completing his all meanings concealed within such word.

2/ Being one does not define that it is selfish, it defines that others are weak that they cannot come into being without his permission. 

3) One exists because of none and not because of many. For example: - If there are so many people in a room, you would say that there are many people in the room, but if there is no one in the room, you would say that there is there is none in the room. But if there be one in the room, you would say there is none in the room except this one. And, God is not insecure but knowledgeable, just and punishes on evidence whatever he created which you have regarded as partner with Him, He (عزّ وجلّ) has not complained about worshiping others than Him except on the ground that they are limited and are they do not deserve to be called God as anything which is limited is not God, so that guy is probably trying that God may give someone respect without merit lolz for that.

4. Let us understand this, Universe is one in its essence but cannot be restrict it by your brain as it expands both at micro level and macro level that is if you start from grain, go on counting bigger bodies than grain, you will exhaust but it will not end, and like wise if you start from grain and go out counting smaller bodies that is atom and sub-atomic particle you will end. Since you cannot limit the boundaries of universe, how could you restrict him ?

MashAllah brother such wisdom 

So so so so so well explained 

Thank you so much !

:cryhappy:

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1 minute ago, Noor Taleb said:

MashAllah brother such wisdom 

So so so so so well explained 

Thank you so much !

:cryhappy:

Praise be to Allah (عزّ وجلّ), he gave me opportunity to explain you from what He (عزّ وجلّ) taught me. 

You are welcome, I will try to help you till I run out of my memory and then we will find it together by swimming in the sea of Internet. :titanic:

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28 minutes ago, Noor Taleb said:

MashAllah brother such wisdom 

So so so so so well explained 

Thank you so much !

:cryhappy:

I corrected the 3rd one again. re-read it. further you can also read this:

3.  Many comes through one but one does not come from many and if many tries to minus one, they lose its value, even mathematically, such as 0+1=1. 1+1 =2. 2+1 = 3......

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