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In the Name of God بسم الله
Noor Taleb

Confusion about Oneness of God

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On 5/13/2019 at 5:52 PM, Noor Taleb said:

1) if God is infinite he can’t be captured in images he should not be captured in words as well

1) Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not only infinite, He is also unique in the sense that He chose to reveal Himself and His Covenant through the written scripture of Prophets. The words in the Qur'an should be understood as His words to Muhammad (sawas), and the rest of humankind. Not people imagining and trying to capture His essence in their own words.

On 5/13/2019 at 5:52 PM, Noor Taleb said:

2) God is selfish as being one is ?

2) Existence isn't inherently moral or immoral. Therefore it is not selfish in the slightest. It is a state of being. 

On 5/13/2019 at 5:52 PM, Noor Taleb said:

3) One exists because of many and God is jealous and insecure that people will worship other gods and they will find other ones he knows they are so he is jealous

3) No, one does not come from many. One comes from zero, the void. Allah as I said before, simply willed Himself into existence. What was there before Him? The void, nonexistence. Ironically, calling Him jealous, selfish or insecure is impossible, since He cannot be described or  understood with human atributes because He is infinite and beyond human comprehension.

 

On 5/13/2019 at 5:52 PM, Noor Taleb said:

if God is one you are materially restricting him to be stand alone entity

4) If He is infinite, how can He be restricted materially. Can infinity be measured? No, it just transcends all known forms of measuring and calculation.

 

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On 5/14/2019 at 9:22 AM, Noor Taleb said:

Dear Isam, 

Thank you so much for taking out time to respond to my question and secondly I am not yet convinced by your answers

see the problem is that the person is arguing that If God is infinite and cannot be captured in images then how can you describe him in words since words are used to describe some body that is reachable. How do I answer something like this. Moreover, Some one may argue that Why can he show himself also?

Let me Quote the things he said:

“I doubt whether God is he, she or it. If God is infinite, and cannot be captured in images or idols, tell me Abdul, how can he be captured in mere words? The vocabulary is used only to describe that is reachable. An image is worth more than thousand words. The definitions and description of God in all religious books are, in a way, an attempt to image God. At least, Idol worshippers are sincere enough not to say that idols are what God looks like!”

“Is that statement from God? Fine. If there was only one God, how was it possible for man to find many other Gods to worship? If the single God is so confident that “I have more questions on your God’s statement, Abdul. The word “One” itself is a selfish definition. The word “One” exists here because there is a concept of ‘Many’. The irony is obvious here. When you say that God is “One”, you restrict him to be materialistically a stand alone entity in the Universe with the almighty capability. And if God is not material, either no mathematical finite can be applied to him, or all sorts of counts apply.”there are no other Gods except him, why is he showing envy to another God that is obvious in his own words? If he really knew that there is no other God, wouldn’t he be confident that people will not find any another God to worship? His own statement is contradictory – it clearly shows that he is always suspicious and insecure that there may be other Gods and people may worship those Gods instead of him. Otherwise, why is he warning like a Mafia don not to worship others? Why is he acting like a narrow-minded autocrat who goes to the extent of enforcing strict law that if any one of his gang tries to desert Him, he should immediately be put to death for apostasy? If there is only one powerful God who creates and controls everything, doesn’t that also mean he creates bad things and causes bad things to happen?”

“I have more questions on your God’s statement, Abdul. The word “One” itself is a selfish definition. The word “One” exists here because there is a concept of ‘Many’. The irony is obvious here. When you say that God is “One”, you restrict him to be materialistically a stand alone entity in the Universe with the almighty capability. And if God is not material, either no mathematical finite can be applied to him, or all sorts of counts apply.”

This last one is something that messes up my mind what is he trying to say and how can I refute it?

I would appreciate if you would respond but thank you so much for taking time out to help me.

 

your right, God is indescribable and unreachable, there is a whole chapter in kafi, the first one addressing this issue of using words to describe him, and the Imams preety much saying words can’t describe Him and whenever you try to describe Him you are wrong

but the answer to your question is simple, God says He created the names, and also the attibutes of God, which we are given access to reach Him, of course we can never comprehend Him in His whole infinite entirety , but He has given a certain amount of tolerable access to us

there is a hadith al qudsi thats says between man and God exists 90,000 veils, and that the whole point of existence is to remove the veils, and Get to observe God of what He has already prescribed and created and gave us the ability to comprehend of Him

there is many duas and verses from Qur'an that say "the mind cannot comprehend Him" , meaning u can neve abstract Him or imagine Him or even scientifically understand Him for what He is, and even the Imams have instructed not  to ask about God, why, what, where, who, how about Him , cause these are things that we havent even been given teh capability to comprehend

imagine u wrote a program for a computer, and all that program can do is say reach 2 memory locations and , say 1 cpu register where mathemtical processing occurs, and then using that program u want to try to understand the world OUTSIDE that computer, how is it possible? there is no tools given to that software nor hardware to understand the world outside of a computer(like our world which invovles 5 senses) when you havent even implemented the 5 sense hardware inside the computer let alone given access or instruction for the software how to reach it access it and compound it etc

same thing with us, we are a walking software program, and what we have been given, does not contain the means to understand the software program developer/coder/writer , and there is nothing u can ever do or try or achieve to get to this, yor ego migh tell you otherwise, that is why the ego is dangerous, but if you trust God and believe in God, then you know when He tells you that "you will never comprehend Him" that is exactly the case of what is

don’t bother arguing with these people they think that their being is greater than the universe, they think their minds can comprehend everything, meaning they still havent even understood their own limitations, forget understanding God, hence why Imam Ali says "if you want to know God, first know yourself" and these people havent even achieved that yet, but they want everything handed on a silver platter

God does things His way and they can winge and moan and cry al they like, but in the end everyone returns to Him for judgement and all your sorry stories and "I didnt see proof" aint going to help you

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On 5/16/2019 at 5:58 AM, Isaam said:

I believe there is s verse in the Qur'an that is ‘O disbelievers! To me is my religion and to you is yours. I will not believe in what you believe. You will not believe in what I believe’ that’s not the exact quote but it’s close I think.

Having any doubts about Islam? Seems like you are. If you are just let us know and we’ll do our best to help.

Hey Some one told me that indivisible oneness is Quality not Quantity ie there is no one like Allah so why does Qur'an use argument like if there had been two gods then one would kill the other due to arguments. This is possible for only people who are in numbers of 1 and 2 

EXPLAIN 

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On 5/17/2019 at 3:09 PM, Revert1963 said:

To the OP; why do you engage in these "my dad is bigger than your dad" discussions? Allah is not owned by Islam or Muslims. All people including Hindus is owned by Allah. And when they say they believe in one God they believe in Allah regardless of what they call him. If they seek the one God they seek Allah.
The Hindu guy has a good argument as long as you accept his premise. A God that displays some of the worst worldly desires such as envy, greed and vanity is not worthy of worship. But ask your self if that is the God you believe in? Isn't the Hindu guy straw-maning God? If God is one and God is omniscient he will know that there is no other gods to be jealous of. To a being that is all powerful, greed and vanity (and acting like a Mafia don) becomes absurd. The Hindu guys premise is in effect that God is not God and that becomes absurd unless you are an atheist.
So why does the Quraan emphasize the oneness of God?  In my understanding because polytheism stem from ignorance. I think there is an old Indian tale of the tree blind monks that was going to describe an elephant. One got hold of the trunk, one got hold of the ear and the last got hold of the tail. They all had different descriptions but missed the elephant in the room. The uneducated would take these descriptions and claim that there are tree different spices of elephant. If we use the allegory on God the different spices becomes different gods. First this leads to confusion about God and then as illustrated above envy, greed and vanity suddenly enters the scene with more than one God. All worldly desires that will lead to the sins that will ultimately pave the way to hellfire.  I believe that God loves us. That he doesn't want any of his creation to commit sin and go to hell, so he encourage us to seek him. He is the all merciful. As I see it God doesn't want you to be afraid of him, but afraid of the sin that leads to hell fire.

May Allah protect you 

and your wisdom is amazing 

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On 5/16/2019 at 1:35 PM, Urwatul Wuthqa said:

The following is the clear answer

He is One because He is the One on whom all depends. Why all depends on Him? Because He begets not nor is He begotten and that's why none is like Him. 

A single proposition (Say: He, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), is Ahad) supported by 3 logically & rationally valid reasons.   

THIS BY FAR IS SO BEAUTIFULLY EXPLAINED!

THANK YOU ALLLLLLL

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8 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

Hey Some one told me that indivisible oneness is Quality not Quantity ie there is no one like Allah so why does Qur'an use argument like if there had been two gods then one would kill the other due to arguments. This is possible for only people who are in numbers of 1 and 2 

EXPLAIN 

I'm kinda running in and out right now so I've gotta be quick.

Now Surah al-Ikhlas is the most profound, concise summary you can find. 

However philosophically we have to understand it foremost via Ontology to get a grasp of what it really means for us to profess Tawhid. 

Reality itself is a collective whole, the totality of what we experience in this life is limited to our relative or subjective perceptions but there is an inevitable Absolute that is ever-present regardless of any random person's own views or perceptions of said reality, the Absolute is something that will never disappear from philosophy. 

God is the Source of "all-that-is" and the Material Universe is that which we are conditioned to know via physical feeling and visual perception. Tawhid posits that the Ultimate Source of all-that-is, is of Perfect essence and Transcendent Unicity, it creates (as in constantly) and pervades it's creation likewise and is itself an embodiment of the highest Unity. 

Polytheism and anthropomorphism both fail to grapple with greater existence (of which Tawhid tackles with full force) as they limit the understanding of the Ultimate Reality to compartmentalized psychological images and characterizations that reflect only on Human-based conditions (like Dualism of Male/Female or the Life/Death cycle).

I think your reference there speaks about Polytheistic ideas about Deities being very fallible and causing of logical error. Polytheistic conceptions of Deity exalt archetypal facets of human nature as congeneric to the Human condition (which brings politics and social structure into the metaphysical realm) which is to be blunt; an immature form of spirituality and ontology. The early Christian Gnostics also fell for this trap too, politicizing the role of God to man as a kind of tyranny, where a perfect, more real God is at the top of a cosmology. 

Of course in Islamic theology and philosophy we posit the coherent answer that makes all the more profound sense that there is God (Allah) which transcends everything but also sustains it, then below God is the intermediaries (Angels) and spirits (Jinn) and that we are below them but more important than them. For God to be God, it requires there to be nothing like it. Like someone mentioned above, God isn't "owned" by anyone, cause God created all - but we do firmly believe that the Qur'an is a Revelation from God. 

Islamic theology and philosophy can get extremely deep (hey, the Qur'an itself is, so it's expected) but hopefully you understand what I've explained.

 

Peace and blessings :)

Edited by HakimPtsid

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2 hours ago, HakimPtsid said:

I'm kinda running in and out right now so I've gotta be quick.

Now Surah al-Ikhlas is the most profound, concise summary you can find. 

However philosophically we have to understand it foremost via Ontology to get a grasp of what it really means for us to profess Tawhid. 

Reality itself is a collective whole, the totality of what we experience in this life is limited to our relative or subjective perceptions but there is an inevitable Absolute that is ever-present regardless of any random person's own views or perceptions of said reality, the Absolute is something that will never disappear from philosophy. 

God is the Source of "all-that-is" and the Material Universe is that which we are conditioned to know via physical feeling and visual perception. Tawhid posits that the Ultimate Source of all-that-is, is of Perfect essence and Transcendent Unicity, it creates (as in constantly) and pervades it's creation likewise and is itself an embodiment of the highest Unity. 

Polytheism and anthropomorphism both fail to grapple with greater existence (of which Tawhid tackles with full force) as they limit the understanding of the Ultimate Reality to compartmentalized psychological images and characterizations that reflect only on Human-based conditions (like Dualism of Male/Female or the Life/Death cycle).

I think your reference there speaks about Polytheistic ideas about Deities being very fallible and causing of logical error. Polytheistic conceptions of Deity exalt archetypal facets of human nature as congeneric to the Human condition (which brings politics and social structure into the metaphysical realm) which is to be blunt; an immature form of spirituality and ontology. The early Christian Gnostics also fell for this trap too, politicizing the role of God to man as a kind of tyranny, where a perfect, more real God is at the top of a cosmology. 

Of course in Islamic theology and philosophy we posit the coherent answer that makes all the more profound sense that there is God (Allah) which transcends everything but also sustains it, then below God is the intermediaries (Angels) and spirits (Jinn) and that we are below them but more important than them. For God to be God, it requires there to be nothing like it. Like someone mentioned above, God isn't "owned" by anyone, cause God created all - but we do firmly believe that the Qur'an is a Revelation from God. 

Islamic theology and philosophy can get extremely deep (hey, the Qur'an itself is, so it's expected) but hopefully you understand what I've explained.

 

Peace and blessings :)

I think your reference there speaks about Polytheistic ideas about Deities being very fallible and causing of logical error. Polytheistic conceptions of Deity exalt archetypal facets of human nature as congeneric to the Human condition (which brings politics and social structure into the metaphysical realm) which is to be blunt; an immature form of spirituality and ontology. The early Christian Gnostics also fell for this trap too, politicizing the role of God to man as a kind of tyranny, where a perfect, more real God is at the top of a cosmology. 

I would like to confess that I didn't get anything you said in this paragraph if you have free time once youre not busy please explain this in simple terms.

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On 5/16/2019 at 10:11 AM, Shia farm girl said:

As salaamun aleikum,

"then how can you describe him in words since words are used to describe some body that is reachable"

Humans, as a limited creation, are also limited by language.  Language is a very limiting and confining thing. I think in the next realm, we will communicate via something like telepathy, and there will be no more confusion, misunderstandings, or falling short in our conveyance of concepts, thoughts, etc to each other.

Look how many problems we have on a day to day basis based on how something was said, understoood, misunderstood, etc? This same falliable language absolutely falls short of the ability to do justice to describing God, if it was even possible. We do the best we can, and at our absolute best, they are merely concepts or ideas that we understand in the end, which in and of themselves are extremelly limited in conveying an understanding of God. This is a problem we arrive at when we confine God to the realm of rationality and reason, and this leads to a very limited understanding of God at best. Our ratinality is necessary at first, to help us to discern we are on the right path, but at a certain point, we need to move beyond this  to a deeper way of understanding God. 

"At least, Idol worshippers are sincere enough not to say that idols are what God looks like!”

This may be the case, however, they only further ingrain in there heart, mind and soul the concept that God is something outside of themselves, with specific limited attributes. This has been the hardest thing for me to remove from myself after converting to Islam from Christianity. The idea that God is seperate from us, that He exists in some "form" outside of me, this duality idea, its known as hidden shirk. To  move towards removing this, a person needs to study tawheed, the more indepth, the better. If you stop at the idea that "God is 1", and move on to the next subject, inducting REAL tawheed into yourself will never be accomplished.

In Arabic, the word "Wahid" means 1, in the numerical sense. But look at the word "Ahad", in Surah Iklass:

qul huwa Allahu AHADAllahu assamadLam yalid walam yooladWalam yakun lahu kufuwan ahad.

قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ

Say: He, Allah, is One.اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ

Allah is He on Whom all depend.
لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ

He begets not, nor is He begotten.
وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ

And none is like Him.

 

He is the ALL ENCOMPASSING ONE. 

Rationally, there can’t be more that 1 of this type of "One". It has nothing to do with selfishness, as was mentined further down in the OP.  

Surah Hadid ayatt 3 helps to elucidate Surah Iklass:

Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 3:
هُوَ الْأَوَّلُ وَالْآخِرُ وَالظَّاهِرُ وَالْبَاطِنُ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

He is the First and the Last and the Outter and the inner, and He is Cognizant of all things.


(Doesnt leave any room for anything else, does it?) There is no "thing" that is God-free.

This is the kind of "One" that God is, to the best that language can describe His indescribable Self.

"If there was only one God, how was it possible for man to find many other Gods to worship?"

Man created these concepts of other gods. God didnt create them. 

Maybe br. @eThErEaL can shed some light on this and correct any wrong I may have said.

Hope this helps,

w/s

He is the First and the Last and the Outter and the inner, and He is Cognizant of all things.

what is the meaning of outer and inner ?

and what do you means by kafir thinking God exists in a form outside of them ? I don’t get it 

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4 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

He is the First and the Last and the Outter and the inner, and He is Cognizant of all things.

what is the meaning of outer and inner ?

I would take it to mean that Allah knows us inside and out, sees what we do privately and publically, what we think and what we do. Hence the verse saying He is cognisant of all things. I believe it has something to do with Allah's Omnipresence, He is not limited to knowing the outside aspects of life, but also knows the inside aspects like thought, intentions, plans etc. 

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5 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

and what do you means by kafir thinking God exists in a form outside of them ? I don’t get it 

As in the idea in that He is in a form we can imagine and that He is far and distant from us: Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is without a form and nearer to us than our jugular vein (50:16) and self-sufficient, therefore he would not have a form or a body so to speak. (35:15) Allah to the Muslims is not part of a trinity, human, an idol, a lover or  a parent to humans or other deities. Allah is Allah, there is truly nothing remotely like Him.  

5 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

This may be the case, however, they only further ingrain in there heart, mind and soul the concept that God is something outside of themselves, with specific limited attributes. This has been the hardest thing for me to remove from myself after converting to Islam from Christianity. The idea that God is seperate from us, that He exists in some "form" outside of me, this duality idea, its known as hidden shirk.

 

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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7 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

what is the meaning of outer and inner ?

In the same sense that words or verses have an apparent and implied meaning. The outer being the miracles described in the Qur'an and the inner being our personal relationship with Him. That's how I understood it.

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8 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

He is the First and the Last and the Outter and the inner, and He is Cognizant of all things.

what is the meaning of outer and inner ?

and what do you means by kafir thinking God exists in a form outside of them ? I don’t get it 

As salaamun aleikum,

Let me see if this will help, in sha Allah.

HU (He) is the Awaal (the first and initial state of existence) and the Akhir (the infinetly subsequent One, to all manifestation), the Zahir (the explicit, unequivocal and percirvable manifestation; the Absolute Reality beyond the illusion of "otherness") and the Baatin (the imperceivable reality within the perceivable manifestation, the source of the unknown; the Absolute Self beyond the illusory selves) He is Aleem over all things (the Knower of all things as their creator, with His Names).

W/s

 

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21 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

As in the idea in that He is in a form we can imagine and that He is far and distant from us: Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is without a form and nearer to us than our jugular vein (50:16) and self-sufficient, therefore he would not have a form or a body so to speak. (35:15) Allah to the Muslims is not part of a trinity, human, an idol, a lover or  a parent to humans or other deities. Allah is Allah, there is truly nothing remotely like Him.

@Noor Taleb I forgot to add, Allah is of a singular nature because He is the origin of Creation. There is no dualism or modalism in Islam because of our belief in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as Supreme Creator. He is, as Christians would say, Alpha and Omega- the beginning and the end. Creation, everything has existed, exists and will exist begins and ends with Him. If that is the case, we don't accept pantheism like Santana Dharma does. We need to respect different beliefs in others, there are many different perception  of realities but only one reality. Likewise for Muslims and monotheists in general, we need to understand many different perceptions of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) but not all are correct or founded in reality. Therefore in my eyes, I have no reason to consider the possibility of Quetzalcoatl, Ganesh, Jesus (عليه السلام) or Jupiter being Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). If Allah is Self-sufficient, why would he need to have children? If He is ever-living, why does He die?  If He is without Image or Body, why does He needs a head transplant with an elephant? If He is merciful, why would he need blood sacrifices to be appeased.with us?  Anybody with common sense could clearly see these perceptions of Allah are based in fantasy and distorted. They go against common sense and the human desire for justice in the case of Quetzalcoatl and Jupiter.

Quote

You can’t measure superstitions like that…”I told him: “But fanatic single God beliefs are unacceptable for a civilized and cultured society, as it always create separation, splits, conflicts and violence in this world. The fundamentalist one-God-domination concept has led to terrorism, fanaticism, insecurity, fear and killing whereas flexible multiple gods create tolerance and co-operation. That’s why our ancestors created so many gods.”

Hindu terrorism against Christians: https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-karnataka/Twenty-eight-churches-have-been-targeted-in-the-State-since-August/article15310717.ece

Hindu terrorism against Muslims: http://news.bbc.co.United Kingdom/2/hi/south_asia/6668695.stm

^ If somebody wants to kill for religion, his/her belief in God/Gods is not going to stop them. It's human nature to give into passions and want to hurt or kill others that are different from them. Natesh was either clever or foolish for claiming that only that "fundamentalism one-God-domination" creates terrorism. Hatred doesn't discriminate religions or lack of thereof. It infects us all because we are human.

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On 5/23/2019 at 2:59 AM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

@Noor Taleb I forgot to add, Allah is of a singular nature because He is the origin of Creation. There is no dualism or modalism in Islam because of our belief in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as Supreme Creator. He is, as Christians would say, Alpha and Omega- the beginning and the end. Creation, everything has existed, exists and will exist begins and ends with Him. If that is the case, we don't accept pantheism like Santana Dharma does. We need to respect different beliefs in others, there are many different perception  of realities but only one reality. Likewise for Muslims and monotheists in general, we need to understand many different perceptions of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) but not all are correct or founded in reality. Therefore in my eyes, I have no reason to consider the possibility of Quetzalcoatl, Ganesh, Jesus (عليه السلام) or Jupiter being Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). If Allah is Self-sufficient, why would he need to have children? If He is ever-living, why does He die?  If He is without Image or Body, why does He needs a head transplant with an elephant? If He is merciful, why would he need blood sacrifices to be appeased.with us?  Anybody with common sense could clearly see these perceptions of Allah are based in fantasy and distorted. They go against common sense and the human desire for justice in the case of Quetzalcoatl and Jupiter.

Hindu terrorism against Christians: https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-karnataka/Twenty-eight-churches-have-been-targeted-in-the-State-since-August/article15310717.ece

Hindu terrorism against Muslims: http://news.bbc.co.United Kingdom/2/hi/south_asia/6668695.stm

^ If somebody wants to kill for religion, his/her belief in God/Gods is not going to stop them. It's human nature to give into passions and want to hurt or kill others that are different from them. Natesh was either clever or foolish for claiming that only that "fundamentalism one-God-domination" creates terrorism. Hatred doesn't discriminate religions or lack of thereof. It infects us all because we are human.

I wanted to ask that when I said God is selfish 

I meant that they say he is selfish because he doesn’t share his powers ?? How do I refute that 

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