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In the Name of God بسم الله
Noor Taleb

Confusion about Oneness of God

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Dear All I’m new to this forum and I’m very much confused there was a person arguing against oneness of God using these logics that I can’t seem to refute please help me.

https://www.quora.com/Do-Hindus-believe-in-one-God

read the post by shravan Prabhu it highlights three main 1) if God is infinite he can’t be captured in images he should not be captured in words as well

2) God is selfish as being one is ?

3) One exists because of many and God is jealous and insecure that people will worship other gods and they will find other ones he knows they are so he is jealous 

4) if God is one you are materially restricting him to be stand alone entity read and stuff read the post please !! Help me!!!

 

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41 minutes ago, Noor Taleb said:

1) if God is infinite he can’t be captured in images he should not be captured in words as well

2) God is selfish as being one is ?

3) One exists because of many and God is jealous and insecure that people will worship other gods and they will find other ones he knows they are so he is jealous 

 4) if God is one you are materially restricting him to be stand alone entity read and stuff read the post please !! Help me!

1. If he is infinite he can have the power not to be seen. He has given the proof of his existence to those who believe.

2. How is God selfish? He created the entire world to test his creations. He gives each one a different test of life.

3. Listen to yourself. Why would God need more gods if he is capable of everything himself?

4. God has been here for all of eternity, why would he create another “God” if he can’t do anything God can.

 

to be honest no point of arguing with a person with that logic, Noor

Edited by Isaam

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41 minutes ago, Isaam said:

1. If he is infinite he can have the power not to be seen. He has given the proof of his existence to those who believe.

2. How is God selfish? He created the entire world to test his creations. He gives each one a different test of life.

3. Listen to yourself. Why would God need more gods if he is capable of everything himself?

4. God has been here for all of eternity, why would he create another “God” if he can’t do anything God can.

 

to be honest no point of arguing with a person with that logic, Noor

Dear Isam, 

Thank you so much for taking out time to respond to my question and secondly I am not yet convinced by your answers

see the problem is that the person is arguing that If God is infinite and cannot be captured in images then how can you describe him in words since words are used to describe some body that is reachable. How do I answer something like this. Moreover, Some one may argue that Why can he show himself also?

Let me Quote the things he said:

“I doubt whether God is he, she or it. If God is infinite, and cannot be captured in images or idols, tell me Abdul, how can he be captured in mere words? The vocabulary is used only to describe that is reachable. An image is worth more than thousand words. The definitions and description of God in all religious books are, in a way, an attempt to image God. At least, Idol worshippers are sincere enough not to say that idols are what God looks like!”

“Is that statement from God? Fine. If there was only one God, how was it possible for man to find many other Gods to worship? If the single God is so confident that “I have more questions on your God’s statement, Abdul. The word “One” itself is a selfish definition. The word “One” exists here because there is a concept of ‘Many’. The irony is obvious here. When you say that God is “One”, you restrict him to be materialistically a stand alone entity in the Universe with the almighty capability. And if God is not material, either no mathematical finite can be applied to him, or all sorts of counts apply.”there are no other Gods except him, why is he showing envy to another God that is obvious in his own words? If he really knew that there is no other God, wouldn’t he be confident that people will not find any another God to worship? His own statement is contradictory – it clearly shows that he is always suspicious and insecure that there may be other Gods and people may worship those Gods instead of him. Otherwise, why is he warning like a Mafia don not to worship others? Why is he acting like a narrow-minded autocrat who goes to the extent of enforcing strict law that if any one of his gang tries to desert Him, he should immediately be put to death for apostasy? If there is only one powerful God who creates and controls everything, doesn’t that also mean he creates bad things and causes bad things to happen?”

“I have more questions on your God’s statement, Abdul. The word “One” itself is a selfish definition. The word “One” exists here because there is a concept of ‘Many’. The irony is obvious here. When you say that God is “One”, you restrict him to be materialistically a stand alone entity in the Universe with the almighty capability. And if God is not material, either no mathematical finite can be applied to him, or all sorts of counts apply.”

This last one is something that messes up my mind what is he trying to say and how can I refute it?

I would appreciate if you would respond but thank you so much for taking time out to help me.

 

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On 5/14/2019 at 3:22 AM, Noor Taleb said:

All I’m new to this forum and I’m very much confused there was a person arguing against one ness of God using these logics that I can’t seem to refute please help me.

https://www.quora.com/Do-Hindus-believe-in-one-God

Read the post by Rami sivan on the same quora page you mentioned.

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On 5/13/2019 at 7:22 PM, Noor Taleb said:

I would appreciate if you would respond but thank you so much for taking time out to help me.

 

I believe there is s verse in the Qur'an that is ‘O disbelievers! To me is my religion and to you is yours. I will not believe in what you believe. You will not believe in what I believe’ that’s not the exact quote but it’s close I think.

Having any doubts about Islam? Seems like you are. If you are just let us know and we’ll do our best to help.

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4 minutes ago, Isaam said:

I believe there is s verse in the Qur'an that is ‘O disbelievers! To me is my religion and to you is yours. I will not believe in what you believe. You will not believe in what I believe’ that’s not the exact quote but it’s close I think.

Yep, that's Surah al-Kafirun

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As salaamun aleikum,

"then how can you describe him in words since words are used to describe some body that is reachable"

Humans, as a limited creation, are also limited by language.  Language is a very limiting and confining thing. I think in the next realm, we will communicate via something like telepathy, and there will be no more confusion, misunderstandings, or falling short in our conveyance of concepts, thoughts, etc to each other.

Look how many problems we have on a day to day basis based on how something was said, understoood, misunderstood, etc? This same falliable language absolutely falls short of the ability to do justice to describing God, if it was even possible. We do the best we can, and at our absolute best, they are merely concepts or ideas that we understand in the end, which in and of themselves are extremelly limited in conveying an understanding of God. This is a problem we arrive at when we confine God to the realm of rationality and reason, and this leads to a very limited understanding of God at best. Our ratinality is necessary at first, to help us to discern we are on the right path, but at a certain point, we need to move beyond this  to a deeper way of understanding God. 

"At least, Idol worshippers are sincere enough not to say that idols are what God looks like!”

This may be the case, however, they only further ingrain in there heart, mind and soul the concept that God is something outside of themselves, with specific limited attributes. This has been the hardest thing for me to remove from myself after converting to Islam from Christianity. The idea that God is seperate from us, that He exists in some "form" outside of me, this duality idea, its known as hidden shirk. To  move towards removing this, a person needs to study tawheed, the more indepth, the better. If you stop at the idea that "God is 1", and move on to the next subject, inducting REAL tawheed into yourself will never be accomplished.

In Arabic, the word "Wahid" means 1, in the numerical sense. But look at the word "Ahad", in Surah Iklass:

qul huwa Allahu AHADAllahu assamadLam yalid walam yooladWalam yakun lahu kufuwan ahad.

قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ

Say: He, Allah, is One.اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ

Allah is He on Whom all depend.
لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ

He begets not, nor is He begotten.
وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ

And none is like Him.

 

He is the ALL ENCOMPASSING ONE. 

Rationally, there can’t be more that 1 of this type of "One". It has nothing to do with selfishness, as was mentined further down in the OP.  

Surah Hadid ayatt 3 helps to elucidate Surah Iklass:

Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 3:
هُوَ الْأَوَّلُ وَالْآخِرُ وَالظَّاهِرُ وَالْبَاطِنُ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

He is the First and the Last and the Outter and the inner, and He is Cognizant of all things.


(Doesnt leave any room for anything else, does it?) There is no "thing" that is God-free.

This is the kind of "One" that God is, to the best that language can describe His indescribable Self.

"If there was only one God, how was it possible for man to find many other Gods to worship?"

Man created these concepts of other gods. God didnt create them. 

Maybe br. @eThErEaL can shed some light on this and correct any wrong I may have said.

Hope this helps,

w/s

Edited by shia farm girl

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As salaamun aleikum,

"then how can you describe him in words since words are used to describe some body that is reachable"

Humans, as a limited creation, are also limited by language.  Language is a very limiting and confining thing. I think in the next realm, we will communicate via something like telepathy, and there will be no more confusion, misunderstandings, or falling short in our conveyance of concepts, thoughts, etc to each other.

Look how many problems we have on a day to day basis based on how something was said, understoood, misunderstood, etc? This same falliable language absolutely falls short of the ability to do justice to describing God, if it was even possible. We do the best we can, and at our absolute best, they are merely concepts or ideas that we understand in the end, which in and of themselves are extremelly limited in conveying an understanding of God.

This is the problem we arrive at when we confine God to the realm of rationlity and reason.Rationality and reason is necessary in the beginning to guide us to the right path, but at a certain point, we need to move beyond this into a higer level of understanding. Actually its not really "understanding", but more "experiencing", which is what takes you from ilmul yaqeen eventually to haqqal yaqeen,in sha Allah. (Basically, differnt levels of certainty in God and His existence.)

For example, you can read/learn about a place (ilmul yaqeen) or you can actually BE at that place (haqqul yaqeen) The "being there" gives you absolute certainty of the place and its existence. 

"At least, Idol worshippers are sincere enough not to say that idols are what God looks like!”

This may be the case, however, they only further ingrain in there heart, mind and soul the concept that God is something outside of themselves, with specific limited attributes. This is the hardest thing for me to remove from myself after converting to Islam from Christianity. The idea that God is seperate from us, that He exists in some "form" outside of me, this duality idea, its known as hidden shirk. To  move towards removing this, a person needs to study tawheed, the more indepth, the better. If you stop at the idea that "God is 1", and move on to the next subject, inducting REAL tawheed into yourself will never be accomplished.

In Arabic, the word "Wahid" means 1, in the numerical sense. But look at the word "Ahad", in Surah Iklass:

qul huwa Allahu AHADAllahu assamadLam yalid walam yooladWalam yakun lahu kufuwan ahad.

قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ

Say: He, Allah, is One.اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ

Allah is He on Whom all depend.
لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ

He begets not, nor is He begotten.
وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ

And none is like Him.

 

He is the ALL ENCOMPASSING ONE. 

Rationally, there can’t be more that 1 of this type of "One". It has nothing to do with selfishness, as was mentined further down in the OP.  

Surah Hadid ayatt 3 helps to elucidate Surah Iklass:

Surah Al-Hadid, Verse 3:
هُوَ الْأَوَّلُ وَالْآخِرُ وَالظَّاهِرُ وَالْبَاطِنُ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

He is the First and the Last and the Outter and the inner, and He is Cognizant of all things.


(Doesnt leave any room for anything else, does it?) There is no "thing" that is God-free.

This is the kind of "One" that God is, to the best that language can describe His indescribable Self.

"If there was only one God, how was it possible for man to find many other Gods to worship?"

Man created these concepts of other gods. God didnt create them. 

Maybe br. @eThErEaL can shed some light on this and correct any wrong I may have said.

Hope this helps,

w/s

Edited by shia farm girl

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As salaamun aleikum,

I just realized the OP is dealing with someone who is not Muslim,meaning, most of what I said wil have no effect on them since I am bringing ayatts of the Qur'an to them as "evidence" and as a means of understanding...

Lol, that is like he surest way to get the OP dismissed:cry:

w/s

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2 hours ago, Shia farm girl said:

I think in the next realm, we will communicate via something like telepathy, and there will be no more confusion, misunderstandings, or falling short in our conveyance of concepts, thoughts, etc to each other.

Salam there is some narration that language of all people of Paradise will be Arabic or they talk in their language but all hear it Arabic & will understand it well but it maybe a pure form of Arabic not current accents 

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On 5/14/2019 at 4:22 AM, Noor Taleb said:

The word “One” itself is a selfish definition. The word “One” exists here because there is a concept of ‘Many’. The irony is obvious here. When you say that God is “One”, you restrict him to be materialistically a stand alone entity in the Universe with the almighty capability. And if God is not material, either no mathematical finite can be applied to him, or all sorts of counts apply.”

This last one is something that messes up my mind what is he trying to say and how can I refute it?

The following is the clear answer

3 hours ago, Shia farm girl said:

قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ

Say: He, Allah, is One.اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ

Allah is He on Whom all depend.
لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ

He begets not, nor is He begotten.
وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ

And none is like Him.

 

He is the ALL ENCOMPASSING ONE. 

Rationally, there can’t be more that 1 of this type of "One".

He is One because He is the One on whom all depends. Why all depends on Him? Because He begets not nor is He begotten and that's why none is like Him. 

A single proposition (Say: He, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), is Ahad) supported by 3 logically & rationally valid reasons.   

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On 5/14/2019 at 1:22 AM, Noor Taleb said:

”there are no other Gods except him, why is he showing envy to another God that is obvious in his own words? If he really knew that there is no other God, wouldn’t he be confident that people will not find any another God to worship? His own statement is contradictory – it clearly shows that he is always suspicious and insecure that there may be other Gods and people may worship those Gods instead of him. Otherwise, why is he warning like a Mafia don not to worship others? Why is he acting like a narrow-minded autocrat who goes to the extent of enforcing strict law that if any one of his gang tries to desert Him, he should immediately be put to death for apostasy?

To the OP; why do you engage in these "my dad is bigger than your dad" discussions? Allah is not owned by Islam or Muslims. All people including Hindus is owned by Allah. And when they say they believe in one God they believe in Allah regardless of what they call him. If they seek the one God they seek Allah.
The Hindu guy has a good argument as long as you accept his premise. A God that displays some of the worst worldly desires such as envy, greed and vanity is not worthy of worship. But ask your self if that is the God you believe in? Isn't the Hindu guy straw-maning God? If God is one and God is omniscient he will know that there is no other gods to be jealous of. To a being that is all powerful, greed and vanity (and acting like a Mafia don) becomes absurd. The Hindu guys premise is in effect that God is not God and that becomes absurd unless you are an atheist.
So why does the Quraan emphasize the oneness of God?  In my understanding because polytheism stem from ignorance. I think there is an old Indian tale of the tree blind monks that was going to describe an elephant. One got hold of the trunk, one got hold of the ear and the last got hold of the tail. They all had different descriptions but missed the elephant in the room. The uneducated would take these descriptions and claim that there are tree different spices of elephant. If we use the allegory on God the different spices becomes different gods. First this leads to confusion about God and then as illustrated above envy, greed and vanity suddenly enters the scene with more than one God. All worldly desires that will lead to the sins that will ultimately pave the way to hellfire.  I believe that God loves us. That he doesn't want any of his creation to commit sin and go to hell, so he encourage us to seek him. He is the all merciful. As I see it God doesn't want you to be afraid of him, but afraid of the sin that leads to hell fire.

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On 5/13/2019 at 5:52 PM, Noor Taleb said:

Dear All I’m new to this forum and I’m very much confused there was a person arguing against one ness of God using these logics that I can’t seem to refute please help me.

https://www.quora.com/Do-Hindus-believe-in-one-God

read the post by shravan Prabhu it highlights three main 1) if God is infinite he can’t be captured in images he should not be captured in words as well

2) God is selfish as being one is ?

3) One exists because of many and God is jealous and insecure that people will worship other gods and they will find other ones he knows they are so he is jealous 

4) if God is one you are materially restricting him to be stand alone entity read and stuff read the post please !! Help me!!!

 

Salam walaikum

1. Words can have levels and levels of meaning  that can cause us to ponder deeper into understanding. English itself may not have as much depth as other languages such as Arabic, Persian, Sanskrit. A picture or statue doesn’t included that depth when presenting one image of a deity. There may even be some depth to a picture of a deity such as Brahma’s four heads that have an underlaying meaning but words such as ArRahmanir Raheem can take pages on pages to describe at the most deep levels.

2. Allah is not selfish and the Abdul character should understand that the word God is by no means a translation for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Allah tells to worship only Him because just as the Bhagvad Gita says only those who have become overtaken by materialism worship Demi gods. When worshipping the Allah our mind isn’t focused on one image instead it’s made to ponder when reciting His descriptions and attributes which can open the mind far more than a fixed statue or image.

“Those whose minds are distorted by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.”(Bhagavad-gita 7.20)

3. Worshipping fixed images other than the All(ah) we focus on the physical which will stunt your spiritual growth and causes man to bring himself low by not understanding our ability to bridge the energies of the heavens and the Earth. Instead those who worship the physical become engulfed by the material.

And I don’t get the fourth question. 

 

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3 hours ago, Syed.Dynasty said:

Salam walaikum

1. Words can have levels and levels of meaning  that can cause us to ponder deeper into understanding. English itself may not have as much depth as other languages such as Arabic, Persian, Sanskrit. A picture or statue doesn’t included that depth when presenting one image of a deity. There may even be some depth to a picture of a deity such as Brahma’s four heads that have an underlaying meaning but words such as ArRahmanir Raheem can take pages on pages to describe at the most deep levels.

2. Allah is not selfish and the Abdul character should understand that the word God is by no means a translation for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Allah tells to worship only Him because just as the Bhagvad Gita says only those who have become overtaken by materialism worship Demi gods. When worshipping the Allah our mind isn’t focused on one image instead it’s made to ponder when reciting His descriptions and attributes which can open the mind far more than a fixed statue or image.

“Those whose minds are distorted by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.”(Bhagavad-gita 7.20)

3. Worshipping fixed images other than the All(ah) we focus on the physical which will stunt your spiritual growth and causes man to bring himself low by not understanding our ability to bridge the energies of the heavens and the Earth. Instead those who worship the physical become engulfed by the material.

And I don’t get the fourth question. 

 

You my friend are so kind 

May Allah bless you :)

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Guest YaBaqir

Salam

Shiafarm girl explained it well. God is the Living, the one who all depend on, nothing can exist with him. The Necessary One, etc.

What I wanted to say is something different. From the perspective God is not selfish and say he can create beings near or equal to his status, then he would have made us all his status. 

The fact is creation are not like God but have to grow and be tried.  The reason why I'm not a Prophet is because I failed the test in the pre-covenant.  The reason why Houral Ain were in paradise and didn't need to come to this world, is because they were pure and God knew they would remain pure.

However, if we didn't need to be tried and God could make us all into his sons and daughters as equals, then yes, that would be the right thing to do.  However God's greatness is such that no life can possibly exist with it on it's level nor is a God possible other then Him nor can any possible thing be independent. 

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