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In the Name of God بسم الله
Ejaz

A response to the wahhabi documentary! (Islamic Pulse)

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7 minutes ago, starlight said:

Do not make friendship with a fool because when he will try to do you good he will do you harm. - Imam Ali(عليه السلام) 

Muzaffer Hyder is that foolish friend. 

Just remember, everyone you slander and whose intentions you judge will be accountable by the creator. This was uncalled for.

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Just now, Abu Nur said:

Let's keep hiding it and soon our grandchildrens have no anymore knowledge of our position of these personalities and instead they will become those who protect their wrongdoing. If we keep hiding, we are going one day to forget what is reality.

Brother, we can give an academic account which is a far more powerful way to educate our children as to why we believe certain personalities usurped the right of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), educating them on ways to not only comprehend it intuitively, evidence it textually, but convey it to others sensitively and with Hikmah. Why do you feel the need to educate our children to abuse, malign, bad-mouth and cause Fitnah, which our scholars and our Aimmah forbid us to do, and which would not help anyone understand anyones position, and serve the purpose of incredible discord.

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2 minutes ago, Guest Items said:

Just remember, everyone you slander and whose intentions you judge will be accountable by the creator. This was uncalled for.

There is no judgement of intentions here. I am commenting on his ACTIONS which he might have done with good intentions but they ended up harming the Shias and this is EXACTLY what Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has said regarding a foolish friend which he has proven himself to be not once but twice, first with the British Shi'ism exposed video and now this. He calls himself a Shia and then makes videos 'exposing' other Shias to the whole world? Wow! Apologies for calling him foolish, he deserves a big pat on the back.

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40 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

I am not saying any of these views are my views - I don't incline to such views due to serious theological and historical problems I find in such rhetoric.

You added this in after I had made my quote. In that case, you have absolutely no need in promoting such views. You yourself see the flaws in them, and surely you should equally see the enormous fitnah posting those views on a forum of lay people can have. 

Would Sayed Ali Khamanei, or Sayed Ali Sistani approve of seminary students coming onto a forum of lay people and posting quotes about how Sunnis are worse than pigs and dogs, or Kuffar in reality? 

It's not even contest, you know that answer better than anyone else. I'm asking you, as a fellow Shia who has had family abused and harassed and has feared for his life in certain anti-Shiite countries, and as you are one of the most knowledgable users on here with influence, to reconsider your approach to this.

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43 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

I am simply saying this is what the views of Shi'a scholars has been for 14 centuries, and you want to pretend they do not exist even after the Sunnis have repeatedly exposed these views to the world on their blogs, websites and YouTube channels

 

8 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Let's keep hiding it and soon our grandchildrens have no anymore knowledge of our position of these personalities and instead they will become those who protect their wrongdoing. If we keep hiding, we are going one day to forget what is reality.

With this in mind, should the likes of Shaikh Yasser al Habib be considered controversial among Shia? And has he said anything explicitly against Shia teachings/beliefs? As he has been attacked on here in a few threads.

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Just now, starlight said:

 

There is no judgement of intentions here. I am commenting on his ACTIONS which he might have done with good intentions but they ended up harming the Shias and this is EXACTLY what Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has said regarding a foolish friend which he has proven himself to be not once but twice, first with the British Shi'ism exposed video and now this. He calls himself a Shia and then makes videos 'exposing' other Shias to the whole world? Wow! Apologies for calling him foolish, he deserves a big pat on the back.

Why are you acting as though this video was somehow majorly scandalous? Do you want him to come out and say that Imam Khomeini (allegedly) said Sunnis are Kuffar in reality and worse than dogs and pigs? A real fool would do that.

 

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26 minutes ago, Guest Items said:

Many of our scholars have advised the lay public, or those with knowledge mingling among lay public to not delve into discussions like this which are very technical and have the potential to cause Fitnah.

For starters, maybe these scholars who you speak about should reflect this in their own books and talks so that SDL can't go around finding clips of them contradicting themselves, causing further embarrassment. Secondly, perhaps Islamic Pulse should take note of that advise that discussions that are very technical (like Sunni - Shia relations or what constitutes British Shia'ism) and have the potential to cause Fitnah should not be brought out in public discourse - especially if they do not have the expertise to handle the rebuttals.

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What the brother in the video is doing, whether he knows it or not, is arguably the most sensible thing to do, whether or not you agree with what he says. I hope you understand what I am saying. 

Yes, he is doing a lot of damage to Shi'I scholarship and as well as causing embarrassment with these specific videos. That is what he is doing and he should stop engaging in polemical videos when he has no expertise in it. If you are going to engage in such polemics in public, then be prepared to be hit with the truth in public as well.

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In fact, some speakers from Iran have come to western countries and spoke about these things, and were then recorded and the amount of unneeded fitnah caused was startling though not surprising.

Yes, and the same channel Islamic Pulse has offered such speakers full support in those cases.

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There is nothing to be gained in going around and publicly calling revered Sunni symbols or Sunnis themselves worse than pigs or dogs and kuffar in reality, if an individual has that view.

I am sorry to say, but this is not a view of an individual. This is the theology of Shi'ism - it is not some fringe view held by some random scholar, the giants of our religion held these views. So if you want such views to remain hidden then there needs to be a better strategy. Perhaps we can start by censoring our own books and traditions like it was done when certain volumes of Bihar al-Anwar were not being published.

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I had hoped you would have taken a more nuanced understanding with what I was trying to say. People who quote Shiachat, and make video montages of Shia speakers don't need to do that, but it is far more powerful to show others and rouse their emotions when you can provide evidence of it being done by Shias. That has the ability to cause far more outrage. As someone who has been on this site since 2004, you should know this forum is often the first port of call many have with Shia Islam, has visitors from all over the world, and has lay people scanning it from other sects and sharing things. I have been on the receiving end of some of the things shared on here, from outright abusing revered symbols in the most immature of manners, and I have seen the emotions that incites.

You are not making much sense - I have not said or added anything new to the discussion more than what SDL has already quoted numerous times (and much more) from our scholars and what IP was trying to explain away. I pointed out a rookie Arabic mistake in the video made by IP - which SDL would have figured out given their Arabic background, and said that the whole argument falls apart. I did not quote something that was unknown in Shia-Sunni online polemics and then brought it to public light. 

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If you really believe it is a good idea to go on a public forum and post your view of Sunnis being kuffar in reality, worse than pigs and dogs, you can continue to do so. My duty was to speak out against it, and as someone with a vast number of Sunni family members (including immediate) that sort of rhetoric being common place among the people would not just destroy families, it can cause wars and bloodshed. 

My ancestors were Sunnis for many centuries (funny enough, because they kept their beliefs hidden for generations) and only a certain half of them turned Shia in the middle of the last century, and as such a vast majority of my family also includes Sunni members and cousins who have named their children Ayesha and Umar. Your point in relation to my ShiaChat post is nothing but an over-dramatization of the context.

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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9 minutes ago, Guest Items said:

Why are you acting as though this video was somehow majorly scandalous?

I am not, I am just stating the fact that these videos of his caused harm to Shias. It's you who are in crisis mode like you always are whenever you hear the slightest comment that might offend Sunnis.

Edited by starlight
Offend not offered

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16 minutes ago, Guest Items said:

Brother, we can give an academic account which is a far more powerful way to educate our children as to why we believe certain personalities usurped the right of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), educating them on ways to not only comprehend it intuitively, evidence it textually, but convey it to others sensitively and with Hikmah. Why do you feel the need to educate our children to abuse, malign, bad-mouth and cause Fitnah, which our scholars and our Aimmah forbid us to do, and which would not help anyone understand anyones position, and serve the purpose of incredible discord.

Of course that way is right way and it is wrong to abuse the character which Qur'an clearly teach not to do such a thing. But showing such Hadiths and laws that we hold correct should not be hide because it make others angry, it has nothing to do with abusing them. 

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16 minutes ago, Guest Items said:

You added this in after I had made my quote. In that case, you have absolutely no need in promoting such views. You yourself see the flaws in them, and surely you should equally see the enormous fitnah posting those views on a forum of lay people can have. 

Would Sayed Ali Khamanei, or Sayed Ali Sistani approve of seminary students coming onto a forum of lay people and posting quotes about how Sunnis are worse than pigs and dogs, or Kuffar in reality? 

It's not even contest, you know that answer better than anyone else. I'm asking you, as a fellow Shia who has had family abused and harassed and has feared for his life in certain anti-Shiite countries, and as you are one of the most knowledgable users on here with influence, to reconsider your approach to this.

You rather I don't open up about this on a public forum, then I will really be bringing things into public discourse...

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9 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

You rather I don't open up about this on a public forum, then I will really be bringing things into public discourse...

You are probably one of the most knowledgable users on here. Most of us are lay people. We have no business in technical discussions on issues you yourself see problematic on several levels brother. 

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22 minutes ago, starlight said:

I am not, I am just stating the fact that these videos of his caused harm to Shias. It's you who are in crisis mode like you always are whenever you hear the slightest comment that might offend Sunnis.

More like damage limitation mode, on other forums, to family members, and when fearing for my life and the life of many Shia family members I know for certain are hounded and abused because of what foul-mouthed Shias say. I actually live in a safe area of the world in terms of being a Shia. You live in Pakistan, you more than anyone else should realise the wisdom in how we conduct public discourse. Everything I am doing will benefit you and your children, and the safety of so many oppressed globally and live under danger and persecution. 

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45 minutes ago, starlight said:

I am not, I am just stating the fact that these videos of his caused harm to Shias. It's you who are in crisis mode like you always are whenever you hear the slightest comment that might offend Sunnis.

Slight?

Calling them Kuffar in reality and referring to them as worse than dogs and pigs, as well as to their revered symbols?

 

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