A response to the wahhabi documentary! (Islamic Pulse)

[313_Waiter]

At last!!

[Ibn al-Hussain]

Sigh. Horrible come back - such a rookie mistake at 3:35 he completely misunderstood the Arabic. Can't be making such blunders on such a large platform.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Ibn al-Hussain

[starlight]

Maybe send him a message asking him to correct it.

On 5/11/2019 at 9:29 AM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Sigh. Horrible come back - such a rookie mistake at 3:35 he completely misunderstood the Arabic. Can't be making such blunders on such a large platform.

[Guest items]

40 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Sigh. Horrible come back - such a rookie mistake at 3:35 he completely misunderstood the Arabic. Can't be making such blunders on such a large platform.

Send him a message. We need to work together, and people like him are one of the few taking the fight to these people. 

[Mohammadi_follower]

I am watching his video and honnestly I don't really like the way he compares great scholars to some Sunni armed groups like boko haram just because they criticize openly sahabas or say that a Muslim is not a real Muslim if doesn't believe in imamah. 

[Guest Brothers]

Does anyone feel that users are often influenced by the first or second post on a thread and or the rank of the user at hand? If it's good , people jump on a bandwagon, if not they don't. That's why I tend to make the first post at least on my threads and preempt certain replies before people jump onto any bandwagon, to give them a little bit of relief to think for themselves. 

[Ibn al-Hussain]

2 hours ago, Guest items said:

Send him a message. We need to work together, and people like him are one of the few taking the fight to these people. 

I disagreed with their very first video titled British Shi'ism Exposed to begin with which then led to SDL making a response and now IP has dragged themselves into something they clearly have no expertise in. They made major factual mistakes in that first video and misrepresented the view of classical Shi'I Fiqh regarding Sunnis - somehow they had a problem with the one view that said unity is a political strategy (which it is and there is nothing wrong with that). Anyways, I commented on that video on this forum when it was published here many students in Qom were against it (due to the fact that it had major mistakes).

My only suggestion for them is that they either do not engage in such polemical videos, or if they wish to do so, they should first study their own books and Fiqh properly or get someone who is truly well-versed to help them with these videos. What Imam Khomeini says in his Kitab al-Tahara is nothing unique to him, that is the view held by a thousand years of Shi'I scholarship.

The only way any sort of unity is possible without it being a political strategy is by altering one's theological belief - something most Shi'as are not going to do, and hence the Shi'a (and Muslims at large) shall continue to live a contradictory life in the modern era (I.e. their practical behavior today does not match their tradition).

PS - The Arabic misunderstanding at 3:35 is not something trivial. His whole rebuttal was based on his understanding of that one line which he says means "even if", and he completely misunderstood it because it means "even though" or "although". This reflects extremely poorly on him as a seminary student as someone who cannot even get basic Arabic right, or upon whoever is verifying the content of these videos and in fact his whole attempt to somehow save Imam Khomeini (q) from what he said goes down the drain. Yes Imam Khomeini (q) is literally saying they are to be treated pure - apparently - even though in reality they are more dirty than pigs and dogs. Just like Khu'I says they are to be dealt with as pure - apparently - even though in reality they are disbelievers (kafir), because they do not accept the Wilayah. This is simple classical Shi'I theology 101.

I mention terms like "classical" or "traditional", because there have been new interpretations that have been offered, but those scholars often get pushed aside as "liberal", "reformists", "neo-liberals" and so on, so there is no point mentioning those interpretations or the names of those scholars.

Wasalam

Edited May 11, 2019 by Ibn al-Hussain

[Guest blackhorse2]

and now @Ibn al-Hussain , they are using your argument to save their neck. good job  YOu have to be careful with these takfiris/wahabis, you have no idea how much hate they have for us.

[Guest Items]

16 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

.

While I have a lot of respect for you and your knowledge, surely it is important to not say everything one knows, if these are your views brother. In your post, you have openly said Sunnis/Sunni symbols are  Kuffar in reality, and more dirty than dogs and pigs. I mean, that surely goes against the advice of our scholars which explicitly forbids us to engage in discussions like this, say things like this, whatever people may or may not themselves believe. 

If you have these views, would you recommend Muslim doctors in the United Kingdom to talk about Hudood laws for homosexuality and be struck off and cause Fitnah? Somethings shouldn't be in the public discourse, even if someone has a view. I can guarantee your post is going to be used by them now and as someone who has family in areas of the world where being a Shia is dangerous, having these things put out on Shiachat among lay people I feel brother, with all due respect, is going to do more harm than good.

 

[Ibn al-Hussain]

1 hour ago, Guest Items said:

In your post, you have openly said Sunnis/Sunni symbols are  Kuffar in reality, and more dirty than dogs and pigs. I mean, that surely goes against the advice of our scholars which explicitly forbids us to engage in discussions like this, say things like this, whatever people may or may not themselves believe. 

I am not saying any of these views are my views - I don't incline to such views due to serious theological and historical problems I find in such rhetoric. I am simply saying this is what the views of Shi'a scholars has been for 14 centuries, and you want to pretend they do not exist even after the Sunnis have repeatedly exposed these views to the world on their blogs, websites and YouTube channels - such as from the very book of Imam Khomeini himself? Shi'as need to stop embarrassing themselves on public platforms. You are better off getting away with saying Imam Khomeini changed his opinion after the revolution, than to try and explain his statements in Kitab al-Taharah.

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If you have these views, would you recommend Muslim doctors in the United Kingdom to talk about Hudood laws for homosexuality and be struck off and cause Fitnah? Somethings shouldn't be in the public discourse, even if someone has a view. I

Hudud law do not apply in non-Muslim lands, so it is irrelevant. Nevertheless, we can still express our views regarding homosexuality and that it is a sin, which can be punished by death according to classical Fiqh, under an Islamic government when the conditions are met. In fact, Sunni and Shia scholars do not hide this fact - and there is no reason to beat around the bush either because the non-Muslims know Islam's position on this matter and it is clear as daylight.  

Here, the channel itself is doing a decent job fighting against homosexuality: 

 

 

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I can guarantee your post is going to be used by them now and as someone who has family in areas of the world where being a Shia is dangerous, having these things put out on Shiachat among lay people I feel brother, with all due respect, is going to do more harm than good.

If you think that your opponents need to rely on a ShiaChat post to come up with counter arguments, it definitely shows one's naivety and as well as under-estimation of your opponents - the likes of whom many on this forum including myself (although perhaps most of those members have now left) have been debating since we were teenagers.

The British Shi'ism video itself - which as I mentioned had many flaws - has led to this can of worms being opened.

Wasalam

Edited May 12, 2019 by Ibn al-Hussain

[Guest Items]

9 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

You want to hide the views Shi'I scholars have held and openly expressed for 14 centuries, even after the Sunnis have repeatedly exposed these views to the world on their blogs, websites and YouTube channels - such as from the very book of Imam Khomeini himself? Who are you kidding? Shi'as need to stop embarrassing themselves on public forums.

Many of our scholars have advised the lay public, or those with knowledge mingling among lay public to not delve into discussions like this which are very technical and have the potential to cause Fitnah. Most of our scholars would not support anybody coming onto an online forum and publicly declaring Sunnis and their revered personalities as more Najis than pigs or dogs, and Kuffar in reality. Irrespective what your view is, or the view of whoever you feel held a particular position, surely you must understand what you might discuss with people who share your view in your own circles is not what should be shared on a public forum full of lay people. What the brother in the video is doing, whether he knows it or not, is arguably the most sensible thing to do, whether or not you agree with what he says. I hope you understand what I am saying. 

13 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Hudud law do not apply in non-Muslim lands, so it is irrelevant. Nevertheless, we can still express our views regarding homosexuality and that it is punishable by death as per classical Fiqh, in an Islamic government when the conditions are met. In fact, Sunni and Shia scholars do not hide this fact - and there is no reason to beat around the bush either because the non-Muslims know Islam's position on this matter and it is clear as daylight.  

 

There are many Muslim doctors who would be struck off if they went into a mosque and began publicly talking about how they believe gay people who are caught in the act and have the required witnesses should be thrown off a building, executed and other such things. In fact, some speakers from Iran have come to western countries and spoke about these things, and were then recorded and the amount of unneeded fitnah caused was startling though not surprising.

There is nothing to be gained in going around and publicly calling revered Sunni symbols or Sunnis themselves worse than pigs or dogs and kuffar in reality, if an individual has that view.

17 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

If you think that your opponents need to rely on a ShiaChat post to come up with counter arguments, it definitely shows your naivety and as well as under-estimation of your opponents - who many on this forum including myself (although perhaps most of those members have now left) have been debating them since we were teenagers.

 

I had hoped you would have taken a more nuanced understanding with what I was trying to say. People who quote Shiachat, and make video montages of Shia speakers don't need to do that, but it is far more powerful to show others and rouse their emotions when you can provide evidence of it being done by Shias. That has the ability to cause far more outrage. As someone who has been on this site since 2004, you should know this forum is often the first port of call many have with Shia Islam, has visitors from all over the world, and has lay people scanning it from other sects and sharing things. I have been on the receiving end of some of the things shared on here, from outright abusing revered symbols in the most immature of manners, and I have seen the emotions that incites.

Just as a note, I know the likes of Farid, Hani, etc and the extent they have poured into our books, our manner of grading, obscure and unknown scholars, and I know they own libraries of these books. They can cite a thousand pages, but nothing is more effective than a bad-mouthed overzealous Shia abusing and engaging in sensitive topics in a manner our scholars have warned us not to.

If you really believe it is a good idea to go on a public forum and post your view of Sunnis being kuffar in reality, worse than pigs and dogs, you can continue to do so. My duty was to speak out against it, and as someone with a vast number of Sunni family members (including immediate) that sort of rhetoric being common place among the people would not just destroy families, it can cause wars and bloodshed. 

[starlight]

Do not make friendship with a fool because when he will try to do you good he will do you harm. - Imam Ali(عليه السلام) 

Muzaffer Hyder is that foolish friend. 

[Guest Items]

Just as a reminder, could anyone explain to me how it is acceptable on Shiachat to refer to Sunnis and their Symbols as "kuffar in reality" and "worse than pigs and dogs"? Would you like me to email some of the grand scholars and notable shuyukh we have as to why that is just not acceptable, no matter how well respected the person saying it is? 

 

[Guest Items]

Just now, starlight said:

Do not make friendship with a fool because when he will try to do you good he will do you harm. - Imam Ali(عليه السلام) 

Muzaffer Hyder is that foolish friend. 

That is a very incorrect use of the tradition of Imam Ali b. Abi Talib (عليه السلام) and actually a slander on brother Muzaffer Hyder. To openly refer to him as a fool is taking it too far. 

 

[Abu Nur]

Quote

You want to hide the views Shi'I scholars have held and openly expressed for 14 centuries, even after the Sunnis have repeatedly exposed these views to the world on their blogs, websites and YouTube channels - such as from the very book of Imam Khomeini himself? Who are you kidding? Shi'as need to stop embarrassing themselves on public forums.

Let's keep hiding it and soon our grandchildrens have no anymore knowledge of our position of these personalities and instead they will become those who protect their wrongdoing. If we keep hiding, we are going one day to forget what is reality.

[Guest Items]

7 minutes ago, starlight said:

Do not make friendship with a fool because when he will try to do you good he will do you harm. - Imam Ali(عليه السلام) 

Muzaffer Hyder is that foolish friend. 

Just remember, everyone you slander and whose intentions you judge will be accountable by the creator. This was uncalled for.

[Guest Items]

Just now, Abu Nur said:

Let's keep hiding it and soon our grandchildrens have no anymore knowledge of our position of these personalities and instead they will become those who protect their wrongdoing. If we keep hiding, we are going one day to forget what is reality.

Brother, we can give an academic account which is a far more powerful way to educate our children as to why we believe certain personalities usurped the right of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), educating them on ways to not only comprehend it intuitively, evidence it textually, but convey it to others sensitively and with Hikmah. Why do you feel the need to educate our children to abuse, malign, bad-mouth and cause Fitnah, which our scholars and our Aimmah forbid us to do, and which would not help anyone understand anyones position, and serve the purpose of incredible discord.

[starlight]

 

2 minutes ago, Guest Items said:

Just remember, everyone you slander and whose intentions you judge will be accountable by the creator. This was uncalled for.

There is no judgement of intentions here. I am commenting on his ACTIONS which he might have done with good intentions but they ended up harming the Shias and this is EXACTLY what Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has said regarding a foolish friend which he has proven himself to be not once but twice, first with the British Shi'ism exposed video and now this. He calls himself a Shia and then makes videos 'exposing' other Shias to the whole world? Wow! Apologies for calling him foolish, he deserves a big pat on the back.

[Guest Items]

40 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

I am not saying any of these views are my views - I don't incline to such views due to serious theological and historical problems I find in such rhetoric.

You added this in after I had made my quote. In that case, you have absolutely no need in promoting such views. You yourself see the flaws in them, and surely you should equally see the enormous fitnah posting those views on a forum of lay people can have. 

Would Sayed Ali Khamanei, or Sayed Ali Sistani approve of seminary students coming onto a forum of lay people and posting quotes about how Sunnis are worse than pigs and dogs, or Kuffar in reality? 

It's not even contest, you know that answer better than anyone else. I'm asking you, as a fellow Shia who has had family abused and harassed and has feared for his life in certain anti-Shiite countries, and as you are one of the most knowledgable users on here with influence, to reconsider your approach to this.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

43 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

I am simply saying this is what the views of Shi'a scholars has been for 14 centuries, and you want to pretend they do not exist even after the Sunnis have repeatedly exposed these views to the world on their blogs, websites and YouTube channels

 

8 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Let's keep hiding it and soon our grandchildrens have no anymore knowledge of our position of these personalities and instead they will become those who protect their wrongdoing. If we keep hiding, we are going one day to forget what is reality.

With this in mind, should the likes of Shaikh Yasser al Habib be considered controversial among Shia? And has he said anything explicitly against Shia teachings/beliefs? As he has been attacked on here in a few threads.

[Guest Items]

Just now, starlight said:

 

There is no judgement of intentions here. I am commenting on his ACTIONS which he might have done with good intentions but they ended up harming the Shias and this is EXACTLY what Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has said regarding a foolish friend which he has proven himself to be not once but twice, first with the British Shi'ism exposed video and now this. He calls himself a Shia and then makes videos 'exposing' other Shias to the whole world? Wow! Apologies for calling him foolish, he deserves a big pat on the back.

Why are you acting as though this video was somehow majorly scandalous? Do you want him to come out and say that Imam Khomeini (allegedly) said Sunnis are Kuffar in reality and worse than dogs and pigs? A real fool would do that.

 

[Ibn al-Hussain]

26 minutes ago, Guest Items said:

Many of our scholars have advised the lay public, or those with knowledge mingling among lay public to not delve into discussions like this which are very technical and have the potential to cause Fitnah.

For starters, maybe these scholars who you speak about should reflect this in their own books and talks so that SDL can't go around finding clips of them contradicting themselves, causing further embarrassment. Secondly, perhaps Islamic Pulse should take note of that advise that discussions that are very technical (like Sunni - Shia relations or what constitutes British Shia'ism) and have the potential to cause Fitnah should not be brought out in public discourse - especially if they do not have the expertise to handle the rebuttals.

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What the brother in the video is doing, whether he knows it or not, is arguably the most sensible thing to do, whether or not you agree with what he says. I hope you understand what I am saying. 

Yes, he is doing a lot of damage to Shi'I scholarship and as well as causing embarrassment with these specific videos. That is what he is doing and he should stop engaging in polemical videos when he has no expertise in it. If you are going to engage in such polemics in public, then be prepared to be hit with the truth in public as well.

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In fact, some speakers from Iran have come to western countries and spoke about these things, and were then recorded and the amount of unneeded fitnah caused was startling though not surprising.

Yes, and the same channel Islamic Pulse has offered such speakers full support in those cases.

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There is nothing to be gained in going around and publicly calling revered Sunni symbols or Sunnis themselves worse than pigs or dogs and kuffar in reality, if an individual has that view.

I am sorry to say, but this is not a view of an individual. This is the theology of Shi'ism - it is not some fringe view held by some random scholar, the giants of our religion held these views. So if you want such views to remain hidden then there needs to be a better strategy. Perhaps we can start by censoring our own books and traditions like it was done when certain volumes of Bihar al-Anwar were not being published.

Quote

I had hoped you would have taken a more nuanced understanding with what I was trying to say. People who quote Shiachat, and make video montages of Shia speakers don't need to do that, but it is far more powerful to show others and rouse their emotions when you can provide evidence of it being done by Shias. That has the ability to cause far more outrage. As someone who has been on this site since 2004, you should know this forum is often the first port of call many have with Shia Islam, has visitors from all over the world, and has lay people scanning it from other sects and sharing things. I have been on the receiving end of some of the things shared on here, from outright abusing revered symbols in the most immature of manners, and I have seen the emotions that incites.

You are not making much sense - I have not said or added anything new to the discussion more than what SDL has already quoted numerous times (and much more) from our scholars and what IP was trying to explain away. I pointed out a rookie Arabic mistake in the video made by IP - which SDL would have figured out given their Arabic background, and said that the whole argument falls apart. I did not quote something that was unknown in Shia-Sunni online polemics and then brought it to public light. 

Quote

If you really believe it is a good idea to go on a public forum and post your view of Sunnis being kuffar in reality, worse than pigs and dogs, you can continue to do so. My duty was to speak out against it, and as someone with a vast number of Sunni family members (including immediate) that sort of rhetoric being common place among the people would not just destroy families, it can cause wars and bloodshed. 

My ancestors were Sunnis for many centuries (funny enough, because they kept their beliefs hidden for generations) and only a certain half of them turned Shia in the middle of the last century, and as such a vast majority of my family also includes Sunni members and cousins who have named their children Ayesha and Umar. Your point in relation to my ShiaChat post is nothing but an over-dramatization of the context.

Wasalam

Edited May 12, 2019 by Ibn al-Hussain

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

18 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

I disagreed with their very first video titled British Shi'ism Exposed to begin with which then led to SDL making a response 

Can you provide the link to this response?

[starlight]

9 minutes ago, Guest Items said:

Why are you acting as though this video was somehow majorly scandalous?

I am not, I am just stating the fact that these videos of his caused harm to Shias. It's you who are in crisis mode like you always are whenever you hear the slightest comment that might offend Sunnis.

Edited May 12, 2019 by starlight
Offend not offered

[Abu Nur]

16 minutes ago, Guest Items said:

Brother, we can give an academic account which is a far more powerful way to educate our children as to why we believe certain personalities usurped the right of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), educating them on ways to not only comprehend it intuitively, evidence it textually, but convey it to others sensitively and with Hikmah. Why do you feel the need to educate our children to abuse, malign, bad-mouth and cause Fitnah, which our scholars and our Aimmah forbid us to do, and which would not help anyone understand anyones position, and serve the purpose of incredible discord.

Of course that way is right way and it is wrong to abuse the character which Qur'an clearly teach not to do such a thing. But showing such Hadiths and laws that we hold correct should not be hide because it make others angry, it has nothing to do with abusing them. 

[Ibn al-Hussain]

16 minutes ago, Guest Items said:

You added this in after I had made my quote. In that case, you have absolutely no need in promoting such views. You yourself see the flaws in them, and surely you should equally see the enormous fitnah posting those views on a forum of lay people can have. 

Would Sayed Ali Khamanei, or Sayed Ali Sistani approve of seminary students coming onto a forum of lay people and posting quotes about how Sunnis are worse than pigs and dogs, or Kuffar in reality? 

It's not even contest, you know that answer better than anyone else. I'm asking you, as a fellow Shia who has had family abused and harassed and has feared for his life in certain anti-Shiite countries, and as you are one of the most knowledgable users on here with influence, to reconsider your approach to this.

You rather I don't open up about this on a public forum, then I will really be bringing things into public discourse...

[Guest Items]

9 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

You rather I don't open up about this on a public forum, then I will really be bringing things into public discourse...

You are probably one of the most knowledgable users on here. Most of us are lay people. We have no business in technical discussions on issues you yourself see problematic on several levels brother. 

[Guest Items]

22 minutes ago, starlight said:

I am not, I am just stating the fact that these videos of his caused harm to Shias. It's you who are in crisis mode like you always are whenever you hear the slightest comment that might offend Sunnis.

More like damage limitation mode, on other forums, to family members, and when fearing for my life and the life of many Shia family members I know for certain are hounded and abused because of what foul-mouthed Shias say. I actually live in a safe area of the world in terms of being a Shia. You live in Pakistan, you more than anyone else should realise the wisdom in how we conduct public discourse. Everything I am doing will benefit you and your children, and the safety of so many oppressed globally and live under danger and persecution. 

[Sirius_Bright]

Even lay people can point blunders in his videos and he calls himself seminary student.

Also br. Tawheed needs to rein himself sometimes and admit his amateur content. 

[Guest Items]

45 minutes ago, starlight said:

I am not, I am just stating the fact that these videos of his caused harm to Shias. It's you who are in crisis mode like you always are whenever you hear the slightest comment that might offend Sunnis.

Slight?

Calling them Kuffar in reality and referring to them as worse than dogs and pigs, as well as to their revered symbols?

 

[starlight]

1 hour ago, Guest Items said:

Slight?

Calling them Kuffar in reality and referring to them as worse than dogs and pigs, as well as to their revered symbols?

 

Referring to past incidents.

[Hassan-]

He made a mistake in his video. At 3:20 وان كانو means “even though” not “even if”. وان كانو is a confirmation to the belief of the next sentence.  if Imam Khomeini wanted to say “even if” he would have wrote حتى لو instead.

[starlight]

1 hour ago, Guest Items said:

my life and the life of many Shia family members I know for certain are hounded and abused because of what foul-mouthed Shias say. I actually live in a safe

This has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Referring to Islamic pulse either you don't stir the pot about these things or you say what's factually correct. That's why I repeatedly discouraged making a response video in the other thread. 

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

3 hours ago, Guest Items said:

Slight?

Calling them Kuffar in reality and referring to them as worse than dogs and pigs, as well as to their revered symbols?

 

12-13 years back, when I had selected a house available on rent for my family, I met with the landlord and introduced myself to him. He asked me, after listening my name, "are you Shia", I said yes I am. He said sorry, we can rentout our house to any Hindu but never toany Shia.

10-11 years back, I was invited in a birthday party of my collegue, we gathered at his house after maghrib prayers but he was not present at home. After some time when he came back, we complaint that he invited us and himself were absent. So he told us that the Imam of mosque, after finishing maghrib prayers, started a lecture and in that he mentioned a very interesting thing which I have noted carefully. Another collegue asked him about that interesting thing, he said Imam has mentioned that it is allowed to eat and drink with any dog but it is forbidden to eat or drink with any Shia. 

I steped up and said so that means I should leave because I am a Shia. And I came back home.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Urwatul Wuthqa

[Ibn Al-Ja'abi]

Salams

This is a very embarrassing situation. The construction وإن being "although" or "even though" is basic knowledge one learns early on reading Classical Arabic, you can consult a dictionary or reference grammar to see this. The lack of a conditional clause being set up is evident when you read the sentence thus ruling out "even if", you don't need to study very much to learn what a conditional clause looks like. This guy said he was in hawza for a half of a decade — more than enough time to learn the rudiments of Arabic, rather, to be quite fluent by now (even though the first year is Farsi) — additionally he's said that he's had 50 teachers! It's not like he didn't have ample opportunity. The amount of money we Shias have given in terms of khums to pay for this education is ridiculous considering he's just making videos with silly errors like this. It's embarrassing that some guy that's been there this long can't translate a rather simple Arabic sentence and instead of studying is off being a propaganda mouth piece on YouTube. This is nothing against the brother personally, I'm sure he's a pious brother and a nice guy but as a public speaker and representative of the hawza (as he's making himself to be here) I expected a lot more for five years and fifty teachers, this is honestly a shame and an embarrassment. SDL and their idiot staff will only use something like this to their advantage. What type of a message are we sending to the world if our seminarians can be this non-serious. Thank God our seminarians are often much better than this, at the very least they know when they have "even if" and when they have "even though".

Wassalam