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In the Name of God بسم الله
Ejaz

A response to the wahhabi documentary! (Islamic Pulse)

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Maybe send him a message asking him to correct it.

On 5/11/2019 at 9:29 AM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

:salam:

Sigh. Horrible come back - such a rookie mistake at 3:35 he completely misunderstood the Arabic. Can't be making such blunders on such a large platform.

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40 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

:salam:

Sigh. Horrible come back - such a rookie mistake at 3:35 he completely misunderstood the Arabic. Can't be making such blunders on such a large platform.

Send him a message. We need to work together, and people like him are one of the few taking the fight to these people. 

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I am watching his video and honnestly I don't really like the way he compares great scholars to some Sunni armed groups like boko haram just because they criticize openly sahabas or say that a Muslim is not a real Muslim if doesn't believe in imamah. 

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Does anyone feel that users are often influenced by the first or second post on a thread and or the rank of the user at hand? If it's good , people jump on a bandwagon, if not they don't. That's why I tend to make the first post at least on my threads and preempt certain replies before people jump onto any bandwagon, to give them a little bit of relief to think for themselves. 

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2 hours ago, Guest items said:

Send him a message. We need to work together, and people like him are one of the few taking the fight to these people. 

I disagreed with their very first video titled British Shi'ism Exposed to begin with which then led to SDL making a response and now IP has dragged themselves into something they clearly have no expertise in. They made major factual mistakes in that first video and misrepresented the view of classical Shi'I Fiqh regarding Sunnis - somehow they had a problem with the one view that said unity is a political strategy (which it is and there is nothing wrong with that). Anyways, I commented on that video on this forum when it was published here many students in Qom were against it (due to the fact that it had major mistakes).

My only suggestion for them is that they either do not engage in such polemical videos, or if they wish to do so, they should first study their own books and Fiqh properly or get someone who is truly well-versed to help them with these videos. What Imam Khomeini says in his Kitab al-Tahara is nothing unique to him, that is the view held by a thousand years of Shi'I scholarship.

The only way any sort of unity is possible without it being a political strategy is by altering one's theological belief - something most Shi'as are not going to do, and hence the Shi'a (and Muslims at large) shall continue to live a contradictory life in the modern era (I.e. their practical behavior today does not match their tradition).

PS - The Arabic misunderstanding at 3:35 is not something trivial. His whole rebuttal was based on his understanding of that one line which he says means "even if", and he completely misunderstood it because it means "even though" or "although". This reflects extremely poorly on him as a seminary student as someone who cannot even get basic Arabic right, or upon whoever is verifying the content of these videos and in fact his whole attempt to somehow save Imam Khomeini (q) from what he said goes down the drain. Yes Imam Khomeini (q) is literally saying they are to be treated pure - apparently - even though in reality they are more dirty than pigs and dogs. Just like Khu'I says they are to be dealt with as pure - apparently - even though in reality they are disbelievers (kafir), because they do not accept the Wilayah. This is simple classical Shi'I theology 101.

I mention terms like "classical" or "traditional", because there have been new interpretations that have been offered, but those scholars often get pushed aside as "liberal", "reformists", "neo-liberals" and so on, so there is no point mentioning those interpretations or the names of those scholars.

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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and now @Ibn al-Hussain , they are using your argument to save their neck. good job :) YOu have to be careful with these takfiris/wahabis, you have no idea how much hate they have for us.

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16 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

.

While I have a lot of respect for you and your knowledge, surely it is important to not say everything one knows, if these are your views brother. In your post, you have openly said Sunnis/Sunni symbols are  Kuffar in reality, and more dirty than dogs and pigs. I mean, that surely goes against the advice of our scholars which explicitly forbids us to engage in discussions like this, say things like this, whatever people may or may not themselves believe. 

If you have these views, would you recommend Muslim doctors in the United Kingdom to talk about Hudood laws for homosexuality and be struck off and cause Fitnah? Somethings shouldn't be in the public discourse, even if someone has a view. I can guarantee your post is going to be used by them now and as someone who has family in areas of the world where being a Shia is dangerous, having these things put out on Shiachat among lay people I feel brother, with all due respect, is going to do more harm than good.

 

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1 hour ago, Guest Items said:

In your post, you have openly said Sunnis/Sunni symbols are  Kuffar in reality, and more dirty than dogs and pigs. I mean, that surely goes against the advice of our scholars which explicitly forbids us to engage in discussions like this, say things like this, whatever people may or may not themselves believe. 

I am not saying any of these views are my views - I don't incline to such views due to serious theological and historical problems I find in such rhetoric. I am simply saying this is what the views of Shi'a scholars has been for 14 centuries, and you want to pretend they do not exist even after the Sunnis have repeatedly exposed these views to the world on their blogs, websites and YouTube channels - such as from the very book of Imam Khomeini himself? Shi'as need to stop embarrassing themselves on public platforms. You are better off getting away with saying Imam Khomeini changed his opinion after the revolution, than to try and explain his statements in Kitab al-Taharah.

Quote

If you have these views, would you recommend Muslim doctors in the United Kingdom to talk about Hudood laws for homosexuality and be struck off and cause Fitnah? Somethings shouldn't be in the public discourse, even if someone has a view. I

Hudud law do not apply in non-Muslim lands, so it is irrelevant. Nevertheless, we can still express our views regarding homosexuality and that it is a sin, which can be punished by death according to classical Fiqh, under an Islamic government when the conditions are met. In fact, Sunni and Shia scholars do not hide this fact - and there is no reason to beat around the bush either because the non-Muslims know Islam's position on this matter and it is clear as daylight.  

Here, the channel itself is doing a decent job fighting against homosexuality: 

 

 

Quote

I can guarantee your post is going to be used by them now and as someone who has family in areas of the world where being a Shia is dangerous, having these things put out on Shiachat among lay people I feel brother, with all due respect, is going to do more harm than good.

If you think that your opponents need to rely on a ShiaChat post to come up with counter arguments, it definitely shows one's naivety and as well as under-estimation of your opponents - the likes of whom many on this forum including myself (although perhaps most of those members have now left) have been debating since we were teenagers.

The British Shi'ism video itself - which as I mentioned had many flaws - has led to this can of worms being opened.

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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9 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

You want to hide the views Shi'I scholars have held and openly expressed for 14 centuries, even after the Sunnis have repeatedly exposed these views to the world on their blogs, websites and YouTube channels - such as from the very book of Imam Khomeini himself? Who are you kidding? Shi'as need to stop embarrassing themselves on public forums.

Many of our scholars have advised the lay public, or those with knowledge mingling among lay public to not delve into discussions like this which are very technical and have the potential to cause Fitnah. Most of our scholars would not support anybody coming onto an online forum and publicly declaring Sunnis and their revered personalities as more Najis than pigs or dogs, and Kuffar in reality. Irrespective what your view is, or the view of whoever you feel held a particular position, surely you must understand what you might discuss with people who share your view in your own circles is not what should be shared on a public forum full of lay people. What the brother in the video is doing, whether he knows it or not, is arguably the most sensible thing to do, whether or not you agree with what he says. I hope you understand what I am saying. 

13 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Hudud law do not apply in non-Muslim lands, so it is irrelevant. Nevertheless, we can still express our views regarding homosexuality and that it is punishable by death as per classical Fiqh, in an Islamic government when the conditions are met. In fact, Sunni and Shia scholars do not hide this fact - and there is no reason to beat around the bush either because the non-Muslims know Islam's position on this matter and it is clear as daylight.  

 

There are many Muslim doctors who would be struck off if they went into a mosque and began publicly talking about how they believe gay people who are caught in the act and have the required witnesses should be thrown off a building, executed and other such things. In fact, some speakers from Iran have come to western countries and spoke about these things, and were then recorded and the amount of unneeded fitnah caused was startling though not surprising.

There is nothing to be gained in going around and publicly calling revered Sunni symbols or Sunnis themselves worse than pigs or dogs and kuffar in reality, if an individual has that view.

17 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

If you think that your opponents need to rely on a ShiaChat post to come up with counter arguments, it definitely shows your naivety and as well as under-estimation of your opponents - who many on this forum including myself (although perhaps most of those members have now left) have been debating them since we were teenagers.

 

I had hoped you would have taken a more nuanced understanding with what I was trying to say. People who quote Shiachat, and make video montages of Shia speakers don't need to do that, but it is far more powerful to show others and rouse their emotions when you can provide evidence of it being done by Shias. That has the ability to cause far more outrage. As someone who has been on this site since 2004, you should know this forum is often the first port of call many have with Shia Islam, has visitors from all over the world, and has lay people scanning it from other sects and sharing things. I have been on the receiving end of some of the things shared on here, from outright abusing revered symbols in the most immature of manners, and I have seen the emotions that incites.

Just as a note, I know the likes of Farid, Hani, etc and the extent they have poured into our books, our manner of grading, obscure and unknown scholars, and I know they own libraries of these books. They can cite a thousand pages, but nothing is more effective than a bad-mouthed overzealous Shia abusing and engaging in sensitive topics in a manner our scholars have warned us not to.

If you really believe it is a good idea to go on a public forum and post your view of Sunnis being kuffar in reality, worse than pigs and dogs, you can continue to do so. My duty was to speak out against it, and as someone with a vast number of Sunni family members (including immediate) that sort of rhetoric being common place among the people would not just destroy families, it can cause wars and bloodshed. 

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Do not make friendship with a fool because when he will try to do you good he will do you harm. - Imam Ali(عليه السلام) 

Muzaffer Hyder is that foolish friend. 

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Just as a reminder, could anyone explain to me how it is acceptable on Shiachat to refer to Sunnis and their Symbols as "kuffar in reality" and "worse than pigs and dogs"? Would you like me to email some of the grand scholars and notable shuyukh we have as to why that is just not acceptable, no matter how well respected the person saying it is? 

 

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Just now, starlight said:

Do not make friendship with a fool because when he will try to do you good he will do you harm. - Imam Ali(عليه السلام) 

Muzaffer Hyder is that foolish friend. 

That is a very incorrect use of the tradition of Imam Ali b. Abi Talib (عليه السلام) and actually a slander on brother Muzaffer Hyder. To openly refer to him as a fool is taking it too far. 

 

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You want to hide the views Shi'I scholars have held and openly expressed for 14 centuries, even after the Sunnis have repeatedly exposed these views to the world on their blogs, websites and YouTube channels - such as from the very book of Imam Khomeini himself? Who are you kidding? Shi'as need to stop embarrassing themselves on public forums.

Let's keep hiding it and soon our grandchildrens have no anymore knowledge of our position of these personalities and instead they will become those who protect their wrongdoing. If we keep hiding, we are going one day to forget what is reality.

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