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In the Name of God بسم الله

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https://medium.com/@johnhawks/how-much-evidence-have-scientists-found-for-human-evolution-355801dfd35c

according to many article human evolution has occurred. I mean we all know dinosaurs and stuff existed, but what about this type of evolution?? 

A lot of Muslims say we should reject evolution but how can we reject it if there is proof for it? 

Please help me out (I’m sorry for all my questions)

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On 5/7/2019 at 3:40 PM, Isaam said:

https://medium.com/@johnhawks/how-much-evidence-have-scientists-found-for-human-evolution-355801dfd35c

according to many article human evolution has occurred. I mean we all know dinosaurs and stuff existed, but what about this type of evolution?? 

A lot of Muslims say we should reject evolution but how can we reject it if there is proof for it? 

Please help me out (I’m sorry for all my questions)

Salams

I think that it is appropriate for Muslims (and their religious scholars) to stay away from subject matters that are beyond their comprehension. It makes things worse, in fact, embarrassing, when they pretend or try to know & preach material facts of life in light of solely "religious evidence". Simultaneously, I prefer to remain open minded to any counter explanation (for e.g. against evolution) that is reasonable. 

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On 5/7/2019 at 11:40 PM, Isaam said:

https://medium.com/@johnhawks/how-much-evidence-have-scientists-found-for-human-evolution-355801dfd35c

according to many article human evolution has occurred. I mean we all know dinosaurs and stuff existed, but what about this type of evolution?? 

A lot of Muslims say we should reject evolution but how can we reject it if there is proof for it? 

Please help me out (I’m sorry for all my questions)

It is true 

Evolution is true 

its God directed evolution 

Im a biologist and believe me there is no contradiction between Evolution and Islam

I quote:

Chapter (24) sūrat l-nūr (The Light)

24_45.png

 Allah has created every [living] creature from water. And of them are those that move on their bellies, and of them are those that walk on two legs, and of them are those that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

 

Also I want to add in many places in Qur'an Allay says we created you in stages like in womb so this verses confirm and are in complete harmony on creation of man. For example, big bang , life from water, stages. Connect the dots it makes sense!

Not only this you can watch youtube videos 

Have Muslims misunderstood evolution 

 

Edited by Noor Taleb

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Hamza Tzortiz and Subboor Ahmad have explained this excellently in the past. 

And many, many, many other videos. Check out the "Darwinian Delusions" channel by br. Subboor and also ANYTHING that br. Tzortiz puts out. Hamza Tzortiz is the only person on "Muslim Central" that I listen to.

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I have lately read a book titled "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Richard Dawkins and I found the book very interesting. I personally don't consider explicit mismatch between religious scriptures and evolution as a problem as I believe, in a personal level, that religious scriptures are not directly aiming to explain how all species have been existed. I have written a short review about the book here: The Greatest Show on Earth - Review

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@Noor Taleb al-Bari -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is at 59:24, If you check the Quranic dictionary, bah-ra-hamza is used for Creator and Inventor. We viewed with other Revealed Attributes of Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). several sources use the Attribute 'Evolver'.

@Galvanized Love l recognize Dawkins from a few years ago. His pronouncements are a little off-the-wall.

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7 hours ago, Galvanized Love said:

@hasanhh What did you exactly find of-the-wall about Dawkins' pronouncements?

As l wrote, this was several years ago during another ShiaChat debate. l remember watching a video and reading reviews of his publications.

The impression that l retain is of someone with no real thought behind his rhetoric.

Compare such self-publicizing clowns with the few comments on ShiaChat and ask, "Who has done more thinking?"

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Now here is a Q for you:

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 6:04 AM, Galvanized Love said:

I have lately read a book titled "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Richard Dawkins and I found the book very interesting. I personally don't consider explicit mismatch between religious scriptures and evolution as a problem as I believe, in a personal level, that religious scriptures are not directly aiming to explain how all species have been existed. I have written a short review about the book here: The Greatest Show on Earth - Review

Whether Qur'an or Bible, what is 'missing' from the Beginning stories?

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Just now, hasanhh said:

Theism and Evolution are two, distinct models that exclude each other.

Really? how come. Couldn't evolution just be the way God does it?  I mean maybe he thought; "lets see what happens if we give the saber-tooth tiger longer teeth" or something? Everything needn't be finished in 6 days.

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5 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

Couldn't evolution just be the way God does it? 

Even though al-Bari is one of the revealed attributes of Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). , al-Bari is not described anymore than the Ruh is. Therefore the sin is inventing. See 4:50 and 6:93. In 5:103, the names of idols are used, which warns about using made up associations.

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5 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Theism and Evolution are two, distinct models that exclude each other.

They don't if you understand that Allah is all powerful. There is nothing whatsoever about Islam that would exclude evolution but cultural stuborness to accept new ideas.

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On 5/16/2019 at 3:13 AM, Abbas. said:

Salams

I think that it is appropriate for Muslims (and their religious scholars) to stay away from subject matters that are beyond their comprehension. It makes things worse, in fact, embarrassing, when they pretend or try to know & preach material facts of life in light of solely "religious evidence". Simultaneously, I prefer to remain open minded to any counter explanation (for e.g. against evolution) that is reasonable. 

I think it's more about avoiding jumping into deep waters like that without a deeper foreknowledge of the history of science and philosophy. Without understanding how the great intellectuals where thinking several thousands of years ago and being able to place them all alongside each other and assess them via various means (some to do with logic, others rhetoric and dialectic, others to do with astronomy, others natural science, others epistemology etc). 

Same thing happens with evangelical and conservative Christians, they jump in too deep without even understanding themselves properly enough. The Qur'an is a firm book of knowledge and wisdom, it's best to bring everything to the forefront before deciding to bring the Qur'an in and state things that the Qur'an itself criticizes (such as ridiculous, sloppy interpretations of the Qur'an to make it conform to Science's theories). Generally it doesn't impress atheists either lol, kinda obvious why.

We've certainly got century after century of Islamic intellectuals, starting with looking at what our great thinkers have said on these things is far wiser than jumping in and making a fool of oneself. 

Edited by HakimPtsid

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10 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Even though al-Bari is one of the revealed attributes of Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). , al-Bari is not described anymore than the Ruh is. Therefore the sin is inventing. See 4:50 and 6:93. In 5:103, the names of idols are used, which warns about using made up associations. 

So you are saying that suggesting that evolution might me the way Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) creates the world is Shirk? I don't see any inventing in considering different theories. As long as there is nothing that directly contradicts evolution it is still a possibility. And if it turns out to be the very way that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does creation then there is no innovation in it. Then it is only the truth.

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5 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

So you are saying that suggesting that evolution might me the way Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) creates the world is Shirk? Yes.

I don't see any inventing in considering different theories. A science theory is just that, a model. Different theories are kept seperate and away from religion.

As long as there is nothing that directly contradicts evolution it is still a possibility. Why is it that evolution cannot be contradicted, but according to you, Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). can be contradicted?  Besides, evolutionary science is a 'science' which is self-correcting; unlike Philosophy which babbles posits followed by conjecture, and unlike Islam which is revealed by al-Haq -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

And if it turns out to be the very way that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does creation then there is no innovation in it. Then, according to this supposition, Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is also a random variable, gambling away at the evolutionary results? 'Random Mutations', remember?

Then it is only the truth. Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is al-Haq, nothing else. Cf 23:71 for one aspect of this reply.

Answers in bold above.

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Just now, hasanhh said:

Why is it that evolution cannot be contradicted, but according to you, Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). can be contradicted? 

Contradicting Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is absurd. No matter what anybody says, he always has the last word on judgement day. What I meant is that as long as there is nothing [in Gods revelation] that directly contradicts evolution it is still a possibility.

Quote

Then, according to this supposition, Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is also a random variable, gambling away at the evolutionary results? 'Random Mutations', remember?

 

Then it is only the truth. Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is al-Haq, nothing else. Cf 23:71 for one aspect of this reply.

When we believes in Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) we do not consider him a random variable. Scientists may do, but what do they know of that when the existence of God can not be proven or dis-proven by scientific method. Apart from that I don't think that evolution is completely random, but even if different aspects of it are I don't see why God would not use a random generator now and then just to spice things up. Eternity must be awfully boring, especially towards the end. :)

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3 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

When we believes in Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) we do not consider him a random variable. OK

 

... but even if different aspects of it are I don't see why God would not use a random generator now and then just to spice things up. Eternity must be awfully boring, especially towards the end.

Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). does not reveal anything about randomness in His -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). revealed Attributes.

So, since you are so insistent about evolution models, try this one.

The two leading gravitational models are Newton's and General Relativity's, describing gravitational attraction. However, as 30:25 reveals with the verb taquma (qaf waw min) the Ayats of planets and stars stand by the Command of Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

In the simplest challenge, how can you contrive that gravitational models are consistent with the verb taquma?

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3 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). does not reveal anything about randomness in His -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). revealed Attributes.

We humans has been given a free will to choose whether to sin or not to sin. That seams quite random to me.
 

Quote

In the simplest challenge, how can you contrive that gravitational models are consistent with the verb taquma?

If random is the command of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) it is still his command. I would say that the craters on the moon seam to be distributed quite randomly and not in a particular pattern. All within the laws of physics that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded to stand.

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4 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

We humans has been given a free will to choose whether to sin or not to sin. That seams quite random to me.
 

If random is the command of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) it is still his command. I would say that the craters on the moon seam to be distributed quite randomly and not in a particular pattern. All within the laws of physics that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded to stand.

Not at all. If the Earth wasn't situated in space exactly where it is, as between two magnets, we wouldn't exist.

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:hahaha:

4 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

We humans has been given a free will to choose whether to sin or not to sin. That seams quite random to me.
 

If random is the command of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) it is still his command. I would say that the craters on the moon seam to be distributed quite randomly and not in a particular pattern. All within the laws of physics that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded to stand.

1] "to choose" still requires a decision. That ain't random.

2] A crater here, a crater there, and a "miss"? Does a grain of sand on a beach lay randomly, or is there a reason as to where it lies?

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On 6/15/2019 at 11:36 PM, hasanhh said:

Theism and Evolution are two, distinct models that exclude each other.

Nope ! They are not 

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17 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Answers in bold above.

brother 

Allah was never contradicted

Evolution is the mechanism by which Allah made the world 

it is mentioned in the video I have posted the Muslim person is telling clearly 

and mind you I’m a freaking biologist 

I have seen the evidences it’s impossible to reject that’s why I was fascinated with Ouran mentioning this MashAllah 

ITS ALL IN THE VIDEO OF PROFESSOR EHAB 

I was like you all firmly rejecting but you gotta accept the truth 

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11 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). does not reveal anything about randomness in His -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). revealed Attributes.

So, since you are so insistent about evolution models, try this one.

The two leading gravitational models are Newton's and General Relativity's, describing gravitational attraction. However, as 30:25 reveals with the verb taquma (qaf waw min) the Ayats of planets and stars stand by the Command of Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

In the simplest challenge, how can you contrive that gravitational models are consistent with the verb taquma?

Umm explain further I don’t get it 

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11 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). does not reveal anything about randomness in His -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). revealed Attributes.

So, since you are so insistent about evolution models, try this one.

The two leading gravitational models are Newton's and General Relativity's, describing gravitational attraction. However, as 30:25 reveals with the verb taquma (qaf waw min) the Ayats of planets and stars stand by the Command of Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

In the simplest challenge, how can you contrive that gravitational models are consistent with the verb taquma?

By Islam.org

Force of Gravity

We know that before the time of Newton, that great scientific personality, no one was aware of the force of gravity. Newton proved that the falling of objects to Earth, the rotation of the moon and the Venus, the motion of the planets, and other instances of attraction are all subject to the single law, the law of universal gravity.
 
The Qur’an describes the above mentioned gravitational force as ‘invisible pillars’: 

“God it is Who raised up the heavenly bodies to invisible pillars .....” (13:2).
 
In conveying this scientific truth, the Qur’an has used an expression that is comprehensible for the men of all ages. Are these ‘unseen pillars’, which prevent the planets from colliding with each other or falling, anything other than the mysterious and invisible force of universal gravity, a law to which the Creator of the universe has subjected all of the heavenly bodies?

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And for all those people who say science is changing I 100% agree with you 

but if science was that irrelevant and not to be taken so seriously when you feel it’s becoming a threat to your religion even when it’s not 

then why Did Allah PUT SCIENTIFIC DETAILS in Qur'an 

he shouldn’t have at all SINCE SCIENCE IS TRASH

and btw Allah told us to ponder over everything ie deen and Dunya 

I don’t know who ponders over creation better than the scientists !

Edited by Noor Taleb

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@hasanhh

For you I can say :

Offcourse everything stands by the command of Allah sooooo  like are the stars physically standing ?? Or does it mean by command of Allah always being obedient that type of standing !

Since in Qur'an many things are taken literal and many require some deep understanding not to be taken literal example:

example spirit of Allah literally it’s SPIRIT of Allah but when you go deep and try to understand it’s spirit created by Allah which was blown in Adam cause Allah has no spirit.

Now you tell me is the verse saying they literally  stand up like a pencil stands up or is it conveying obedience

 

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10 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

Offcourse everything stands by the command of Allah sooooo  like are the stars physically standing ?? Or does it mean by command of Allah always being obedient that type of standing !

See the use of root mim sin kaf in Ayats 16:79 and 67:19.

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11 hours ago, hasanhh said:

See the use of root mim sin kaf in Ayats 16:79 and 67:19.

Ok now Mr. Hassan I would like to bring to your attention the following :

1) I never said Allah is not the one holding birds up in the air or he isn’t the one who is physically making the stars stand upright by his command 

2) If you understood me even 0.01% you would know how I say it’s Allah doing it by a certain mechanism eg Allah holds the bird high in the sky WITHOUT A DOUBT by the mechanism of Newton’s 3rd Law = for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction which means that there is gravity that is affecting the Bird as well but the opposite force is generated by the flapping of the wings which cause the bird to stay in the air not fall down .

I think the reason of your confusion is that you think gravity is false because it would mean all things fall down that’s not how it works. And in regards to planets or stars THERE IS NO DOUBT that Allah is the one who makes them stand upright this is happening with all science and physical Laws in place I.e gravity does affect stars as well but the point I’m trying to put across is that WAIT I WILL SHOW IN A VERY SIMPLE EXAMPLE :

Process of making ice cream 

I MAKE IT USING MILK SUGAR CREAM AND FINALLY YOU HAVE ICECREAM

WHO DID IT MEEEEEE

WHAT MECHANISM: COMBINING ALL THESE INGREDIENTS 

RESULT : ICECREAM 

thats exactly science which is God DIRECTED!

so credit goes to God !!! Not science 

science is just our LIMITED WAY OF EXPLAINING HOW AND WHAT NEVER WHY!

EVEN THEN WE can’t KNOW ALL THE TIME WHAT STILL WE TRY BECAUSE Allah IS SUPPORTING US BY GIVING SCIENTIFIC DETAILS IN Qur'an !

 

peace peace peace to you brother I apologize if I hurt you ever !

:clap:

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12 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

by the mechanism of Newton’s 3rd Law = for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction which means that there is gravity that is affecting the Bird as well but the opposite force is generated by the flapping of the wings which cause the bird to stay in the air not fall down .

The last I read, there is no aerodynamic model, as yet, that explains avian aeronautics. Additionally, how can you use Newton#3 (or even Newton#2) --wing flapping is not rocket engines?   :woot:

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12 hours ago, Noor Taleb said:

Process of making ice cream 

I MAKE IT USING MILK SUGAR CREAM AND FINALLY YOU HAVE ICECREAM

WHO DID IT MEEEEEE

WHAT MECHANISM: COMBINING ALL THESE INGREDIENTS 

RESULT : ICECREAM 

No, you have soup.

You need dry ice or other refrigerating mechanism to get the "ice" in ice cream.

:yahoo:

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12 hours ago, hasanhh said:

The last I read, there is no aerodynamic model, as yet, that explains avian aeronautics. Additionally, how can you use Newton#3 (or even Newton#2) --wing flapping is not rocket engines?   :woot:

I used Newton’s 3rd law as it works on birds cause That’s how the bird stays high it’s known already it has nothing to do with wing flapping in the sense your talking about 

the main thing is the there is a opposite force of gravity that acts on the bird helps it to stay on flight and wings flapping action represents work done by the birds against gravity that’s it 

there is no point in arguing with you as you are hell bent on not understanding 

you might as well reject all science in Qur'an and say it keeps changing it ain’t real 

Edited by Noor Taleb

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