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In the Name of God بسم الله
Isaam

Evolution in Islam

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On 5/16/2019 at 3:13 AM, Abbas. said:

Salams

I think that it is appropriate for Muslims (and their religious scholars) to stay away from subject matters that are beyond their comprehension. It makes things worse, in fact, embarrassing, when they pretend or try to know & preach material facts of life in light of solely "religious evidence". Simultaneously, I prefer to remain open minded to any counter explanation (for e.g. against evolution) that is reasonable. 

I think it's more about avoiding jumping into deep waters like that without a deeper foreknowledge of the history of science and philosophy. Without understanding how the great intellectuals where thinking several thousands of years ago and being able to place them all alongside each other and assess them via various means (some to do with logic, others rhetoric and dialectic, others to do with astronomy, others natural science, others epistemology etc). 

Same thing happens with evangelical and conservative Christians, they jump in too deep without even understanding themselves properly enough. The Qur'an is a firm book of knowledge and wisdom, it's best to bring everything to the forefront before deciding to bring the Qur'an in and state things that the Qur'an itself criticizes (such as ridiculous, sloppy interpretations of the Qur'an to make it conform to Science's theories). Generally it doesn't impress atheists either lol, kinda obvious why.

We've certainly got century after century of Islamic intellectuals, starting with looking at what our great thinkers have said on these things is far wiser than jumping in and making a fool of oneself. 

Edited by HakimPtsid

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10 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Even though al-Bari is one of the revealed attributes of Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). , al-Bari is not described anymore than the Ruh is. Therefore the sin is inventing. See 4:50 and 6:93. In 5:103, the names of idols are used, which warns about using made up associations. 

So you are saying that suggesting that evolution might me the way Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) creates the world is Shirk? I don't see any inventing in considering different theories. As long as there is nothing that directly contradicts evolution it is still a possibility. And if it turns out to be the very way that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does creation then there is no innovation in it. Then it is only the truth.

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5 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

So you are saying that suggesting that evolution might me the way Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) creates the world is Shirk? Yes.

I don't see any inventing in considering different theories. A science theory is just that, a model. Different theories are kept seperate and away from religion.

As long as there is nothing that directly contradicts evolution it is still a possibility. Why is it that evolution cannot be contradicted, but according to you, Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). can be contradicted?  Besides, evolutionary science is a 'science' which is self-correcting; unlike Philosophy which babbles posits followed by conjecture, and unlike Islam which is revealed by al-Haq -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

And if it turns out to be the very way that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does creation then there is no innovation in it. Then, according to this supposition, Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is also a random variable, gambling away at the evolutionary results? 'Random Mutations', remember?

Then it is only the truth. Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is al-Haq, nothing else. Cf 23:71 for one aspect of this reply.

Answers in bold above.

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Just now, hasanhh said:

Why is it that evolution cannot be contradicted, but according to you, Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). can be contradicted? 

Contradicting Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is absurd. No matter what anybody says, he always has the last word on judgement day. What I meant is that as long as there is nothing [in Gods revelation] that directly contradicts evolution it is still a possibility.

Quote

Then, according to this supposition, Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is also a random variable, gambling away at the evolutionary results? 'Random Mutations', remember?

 

Then it is only the truth. Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). is al-Haq, nothing else. Cf 23:71 for one aspect of this reply.

When we believes in Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) we do not consider him a random variable. Scientists may do, but what do they know of that when the existence of God can not be proven or dis-proven by scientific method. Apart from that I don't think that evolution is completely random, but even if different aspects of it are I don't see why God would not use a random generator now and then just to spice things up. Eternity must be awfully boring, especially towards the end. :)

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3 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

When we believes in Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) we do not consider him a random variable. OK

 

... but even if different aspects of it are I don't see why God would not use a random generator now and then just to spice things up. Eternity must be awfully boring, especially towards the end.

Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). does not reveal anything about randomness in His -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). revealed Attributes.

So, since you are so insistent about evolution models, try this one.

The two leading gravitational models are Newton's and General Relativity's, describing gravitational attraction. However, as 30:25 reveals with the verb taquma (qaf waw min) the Ayats of planets and stars stand by the Command of Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

In the simplest challenge, how can you contrive that gravitational models are consistent with the verb taquma?

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3 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). does not reveal anything about randomness in His -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). revealed Attributes.

We humans has been given a free will to choose whether to sin or not to sin. That seams quite random to me.
 

Quote

In the simplest challenge, how can you contrive that gravitational models are consistent with the verb taquma?

If random is the command of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) it is still his command. I would say that the craters on the moon seam to be distributed quite randomly and not in a particular pattern. All within the laws of physics that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded to stand.

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4 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

We humans has been given a free will to choose whether to sin or not to sin. That seams quite random to me.
 

If random is the command of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) it is still his command. I would say that the craters on the moon seam to be distributed quite randomly and not in a particular pattern. All within the laws of physics that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded to stand.

Not at all. If the Earth wasn't situated in space exactly where it is, as between two magnets, we wouldn't exist.

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:hahaha:

4 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

We humans has been given a free will to choose whether to sin or not to sin. That seams quite random to me.
 

If random is the command of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) it is still his command. I would say that the craters on the moon seam to be distributed quite randomly and not in a particular pattern. All within the laws of physics that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded to stand.

1] "to choose" still requires a decision. That ain't random.

2] A crater here, a crater there, and a "miss"? Does a grain of sand on a beach lay randomly, or is there a reason as to where it lies?

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On 6/15/2019 at 11:36 PM, hasanhh said:

Theism and Evolution are two, distinct models that exclude each other.

Nope ! They are not 

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17 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Answers in bold above.

brother 

Allah was never contradicted

Evolution is the mechanism by which Allah made the world 

it is mentioned in the video I have posted the Muslim person is telling clearly 

and mind you I’m a freaking biologist 

I have seen the evidences it’s impossible to reject that’s why I was fascinated with Ouran mentioning this MashAllah 

ITS ALL IN THE VIDEO OF PROFESSOR EHAB 

I was like you all firmly rejecting but you gotta accept the truth 

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11 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). does not reveal anything about randomness in His -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). revealed Attributes.

So, since you are so insistent about evolution models, try this one.

The two leading gravitational models are Newton's and General Relativity's, describing gravitational attraction. However, as 30:25 reveals with the verb taquma (qaf waw min) the Ayats of planets and stars stand by the Command of Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

In the simplest challenge, how can you contrive that gravitational models are consistent with the verb taquma?

Umm explain further I don’t get it 

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11 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). does not reveal anything about randomness in His -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). revealed Attributes.

So, since you are so insistent about evolution models, try this one.

The two leading gravitational models are Newton's and General Relativity's, describing gravitational attraction. However, as 30:25 reveals with the verb taquma (qaf waw min) the Ayats of planets and stars stand by the Command of Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

In the simplest challenge, how can you contrive that gravitational models are consistent with the verb taquma?

By Islam.org

Force of Gravity

We know that before the time of Newton, that great scientific personality, no one was aware of the force of gravity. Newton proved that the falling of objects to Earth, the rotation of the moon and the Venus, the motion of the planets, and other instances of attraction are all subject to the single law, the law of universal gravity.
 
The Qur’an describes the above mentioned gravitational force as ‘invisible pillars’: 

“God it is Who raised up the heavenly bodies to invisible pillars .....” (13:2).
 
In conveying this scientific truth, the Qur’an has used an expression that is comprehensible for the men of all ages. Are these ‘unseen pillars’, which prevent the planets from colliding with each other or falling, anything other than the mysterious and invisible force of universal gravity, a law to which the Creator of the universe has subjected all of the heavenly bodies?

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And for all those people who say science is changing I 100% agree with you 

but if science was that irrelevant and not to be taken so seriously when you feel it’s becoming a threat to your religion even when it’s not 

then why Did Allah PUT SCIENTIFIC DETAILS in Qur'an 

he shouldn’t have at all SINCE SCIENCE IS TRASH

and btw Allah told us to ponder over everything ie deen and Dunya 

I don’t know who ponders over creation better than the scientists !

Edited by Noor Taleb

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@hasanhh

For you I can say :

Offcourse everything stands by the command of Allah sooooo  like are the stars physically standing ?? Or does it mean by command of Allah always being obedient that type of standing !

Since in Qur'an many things are taken literal and many require some deep understanding not to be taken literal example:

example spirit of Allah literally it’s SPIRIT of Allah but when you go deep and try to understand it’s spirit created by Allah which was blown in Adam cause Allah has no spirit.

Now you tell me is the verse saying they literally  stand up like a pencil stands up or is it conveying obedience

 

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