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In the Name of God بسم الله

Khilafat's System and Yousha Bin Noon

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Salam un aliakum Tohfa Ya Ali (عليه السلام) madad.

I was having some issues in understanding this because the children of Hazrat Musa (عليه السلام) and Haroon (عليه السلام) must be present when they passed away but prophethood was transferred to Hazrat Yousha bin Noon (عليه السلام). And if he was a Prophet then what about his father and family since we believe that Fathers of Nabi (عليه السلام) are muttaqi (Pious ones). I would like someone to elaborate this to me please. Also that Prophet Yousha bin noon (عليه السلام) name isn't mentioned in the Qur'an, instead According to Qur'an one can easily derive that Hazrat Haron (عليه السلام) was khalifa and Prophet after Hazrat Musa (عليه السلام)

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
Miss spelled Musa as Nusa.
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Brother, open up the Torah and you will find the truth of this. We also have hadiths that the Messengers were in fact in the offspring of Aaron. 

Plus the Qur'an confirms what you said.  This is part of their distortion.

The Jews distortion with regarding to "Ahlul Bayt of Harun" was necessary because:

1. It will show Abraham and his family special place, and Sarah special place, is not so Jews become superior due lineage.  Rather the Torah was emphasizing on the chosen ones, and children of Israel while chosen as a people because of their faith in God at a point of time, were not chosen like Prophets who were chosen before coming to this world and are guaranteed paradise and not swerving from the path.

2. It would show, that the Twelve sons of Jacob were a veil to the successors of all founders, and would be for successors of Moses.  

3. Aaron family - so much of the Torah was preparing for them including all talk about household of Abraham and the verses promising it to Aaron's family. God doesn't turn 180 degrees to his promises.

4. Two people were pious and in control of Moses,  Jews say it was Joshua that Moses only had control over and obeyed in a verse and so apply that everyone turned away from the path but Moses and Joshua,  but Qur'an shows it's Musa and his brother, and Aaron didn't swerve off the path or anything like that.

5.  Aaron specially chosen and his offspring specially chosen, would undermine, all the special nature of rest of children of Israel, so they distorted it.

Christians Distortion of holy spirit and word of God being the exalted ones....

1. The whole Torah and all books after are all about the holy image of God and his holy spirit and the righteous chosen ones, and how they are the names of God and his special trusted kings.

2. The Anointed promised one who was an anointed king like his predecessors, talked about the holy spirit in him, and in the one who would come (Mohammed) and that while they wait that, promise, they would be guided by a spirit.

3. The talk of Elijah with respect to John, was to say, of course Elijah is back, because I'm not staying on Earth forever, but Elijah is, and even before me, someone carried the holy spirit and was the star of the household of David, which was John.  It was not to say John fulfilled the Prophecies of Elijah coming back, rather, he showed, Elijah is coming back, but would be hidden except for Jesus' sincere followers, and this is the meaning that God helped him with the holy spirit.

4. Qur'an says "And Zakariya, and Yahya and Isa and Elyas", that seems weird, but take the above fact, and it isn't.

Both of them were satisfied in down playing the mention of "twelve" and "household" in their holy books, and the "the one who God will send", because they didn't want people to see how clear God's way was with respect to the holy chosen families.

This is a big contradiction, God promises Aaron and his offspring and takes a covenant with them, just like he did with Abraham and his family, but breaks the latter, why? Torah has a big contradiction.  

The obvious conclusion, is the offspring of Aaron were not cut off that promise and the covenant remained there!

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Allah in Qur'an has said that he choosed ale e Musa and ale e haroon (don’t know exact refrence but heard from our alim e deen) but after hazrat Musa (عليه السلام) hazrat yousha bin noon (عليه السلام) was Prophet and he (عليه السلام) was not really from aulad e musa (عليه السلام) since he was using ayah to prove that Allah has choosed aal everywhere not friends or ashaab, therefore if Hazrat Yousa bin noon (عليه السلام) wasnt from aal e musa (عليه السلام) then aal word could mean followers as well therefore this argument would go in favour of Sunnis rather than us Shias. Someone please help me out in this.

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5 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Allah in Qur'an has said that he choosed ale e Musa and ale e haroon (don’t know exact refrence but heard from our alim e deen) but after hazrat Musa (عليه السلام) hazrat yousha bin noon (عليه السلام) was Prophet and he (عليه السلام) was not really from aulad e musa (عليه السلام) since he was using ayah to prove that Allah has choosed aal everywhere not friends or ashaab, therefore if Hazrat Yousa bin noon (عليه السلام) wasnt from aal e musa (عليه السلام) then aal word could mean followers as well therefore this argument would go in favour of Sunnis rather than us Shias. Someone please help me out in this.

Wa aleykumsalaam,

Hadhrat Yousha bin Noon (عليه السلام) was from aale Haroon (عليه السلام), we have hadeeth explaining why Prophet-hood went to Aale Haroon (عليه السلام) from Aale Musa (عليه السلام)

Quote

Narrated to us Muhammad bin Ibrahim bin Ishaq ((رضي الله عنه).): Informed us Ahmad bin Muhammad Hamadani: Narrated to us Ali bin Hasan bin Ali bin Faddal from his father from Hisham bin Saalim that:

I asked As-Sadiq Ja’far bin Muhammad ((عليه السلام).): “Who is superior, Hasan or Hussain? He replied: Hasan is superior to Hussain. I said: Then how come the Imamate has come in the generations of Hussain after him? And not in the generations of Hasan? The Imam said: Allah, the Mighty and Sublime wanted to effect the Sunnah of Musa and Harun in Hasan and Hussain ((عليه السلام).). Have you not seen that they shared prophethood like Hasan and Hussain shared Imamate and Allah, the Mighty and Sublime placed prophethood in the progeny of Harun and not in the progeny of Musa, even though Musa was superior to Harun ((عليه السلام).)? I said: Would there be two Imams at the same time? He replied: No, except that one of them may be silent and under the command of the other. And the other will be the speaking Imam for his counterpart. But as to whether there can be two speaking Imams at the same time? No. I said: Would Imamate be inherited between two brothers after Hasan and Hussain ((عليه السلام).)? He said: No, it will continue in the progeny of Hussain ((عليه السلام).) like Allah, the Mighty and Sublime has said: وَجَعَلَهَا كَلِمَةً بَاقِيَةً فِي عَقِبِهِ And he made it a word to continue in his posterity. Thus Imamate will continue in his progeny generation after generation till the Judgment Day.”

Source: KamaaludDin by Sheikh Sadooq,Vol 1,Ch 40,H 9

 

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29 minutes ago, Aquib Rizvi said:

Wa aleykumsalaam,

Hadhrat Yousha bin Noon (عليه السلام) was from aale Haroon (عليه السلام), we have hadeeth explaining why Prophet-hood went to Aale Haroon (عليه السلام) from Aale Musa (عليه السلام)

 

Brother I have no words to thank you. I was confused with this but thanks to you my confusion is gone. 

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20 hours ago, Aquib Rizvi said:

Wa aleykumsalaam,

Hadhrat Yousha bin Noon (عليه السلام) was from aale Haroon (عليه السلام), we have hadeeth explaining why Prophet-hood went to Aale Haroon (عليه السلام) from Aale Musa (عليه السلام)

 

Yusha bin Noon bin ifraim bin Yusuf bin yaqub bin Ishaq bin Ibrahim.   Al- Kamil fi al-Tairkh Ibn athir vol 1 pg 200

Yusha Bin Noon(عليه السلام) was from the progeny of Yusuf Bin Yaqub(عليه السلام).      Tarikh al -Yaqubi vol 1 pg 46

Abi Abdullah (عليه السلام) said Musa alayhi salam. appointed Yusha Ibn Noon(عليه السلام) and Yusha Bin Noon(عليه السلام) appointed Son of Harun(عليه السلام) He neither appointed his son nor he appointed son of Musa(عليه السلام). Indeed Allah has right of choice he chooses  whom he wish from who he wish……

Al kafi vol 1 pg 293 hadith no 3.

Wasi of the Musa(عليه السلام) was Yusha Bin Noon  that is the young man Allah mighty and majestic mentioned in his book.

Al kafi vol 8 pg 117. ( above sentence from the long hadith referring to 18:60)

Safra’a bint Shuiab wife of Musa(عليه السلام) fought with Yusha bin Noon and she was defeated.

 

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2 hours ago, elite said:

Yusha bin Noon bin ifraim bin Yusuf bin yaqub bin Ishaq bin Ibrahim.   Al- Kamil fi al-Tairkh Ibn athir vol 1 pg 200

Yusha Bin Noon(عليه السلام) was from the progeny of Yusuf Bin Yaqub(عليه السلام).      Tarikh al -Yaqubi vol 1 pg 46

Abi Abdullah (عليه السلام) said Musa alayhi salam. appointed Yusha Ibn Noon(عليه السلام) and Yusha Bin Noon(عليه السلام) appointed Son of Harun(عليه السلام) He neither appointed his son nor he appointed son of Musa(عليه السلام). Indeed Allah has right of choice he chooses  whom he wish from who he wish……

Al kafi vol 1 pg 293 hadith no 3.

Wasi of the Musa(عليه السلام) was Yusha Bin Noon  that is the young man Allah mighty and majestic mentioned in his book.

Al kafi vol 8 pg 117. ( above sentence from the long hadith referring to 18:60)

Safra’a bint Shuiab wife of Musa(عليه السلام) fought with Yusha bin Noon and she was defeated.

 

Wa aleykumsalaam,

Thanks for the clarification, I thought Yusha bin Nun was from aale Harun. 

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Salam and Ramadan Kareem,

First of all I do respect the belief in imamate but do not believe in it myself.

Second of all,

If the Biblical story of Musa's succession by Joshua is used as a confirmation of the caliphate system in the Taurat period then it is void as the appointment of Joshua as Musa's successor was done by God himself and not by the Israelites themselves.

Read the first words of the Book of Joshua.

Edited by Faruk
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4 hours ago, Ar.alhindi said:

Just a correction: Haroon AS died before Musa AS, so he is not his successor

He (عليه السلام) was his potential successor. That's why Sayyidina Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made the comparison with Sayyidina Harun (عليه السلام) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

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6 hours ago, Ar.alhindi said:

Just a correction: Haroon AS died before Musa AS, so he is not his successor

This can be proven incorrect by Qur'an and that Harun did succeed Musa.

 

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On 5/10/2019 at 11:53 PM, Faruk said:

He (عليه السلام) was his potential successor. That's why Sayyidina Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made the comparison with Sayyidina Harun (عليه السلام) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

No, the reason why Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) compared him to Harun (عليه السلام) was because he was displeased with having to stay behind and protect the women and children rather than go to battle (Ali: "Do you leave me with the children and the women?"), so to comfort him, he said he was just like Harun (عليه السلام) as it was he who stayed behind to look after the people whilst Musa (عليه السلام) left to receive the commandments on Mount Sanai

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1 hour ago, Ar.alhindi said:

No, the reason why Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) compared him to Harun (عليه السلام) was because he was displeased with having to stay behind and protect the women and children rather than go to battle (Ali: "Do you leave me with the children and the women?"), so to comfort him, he said he was just like Harun (عليه السلام) as it was he who stayed behind to look after the people whilst Musa (عليه السلام) left to receive the commandments on Mount Sanai

With the exception there will be no Prophet AFTER me?

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44 minutes ago, Faruk said:

With the exception there will be no Prophet AFTER me?

Meaning that Harun (عليه السلام) was a Prophet alongside Musa (عليه السلام) but Ali cannot be a Prophet alongside Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as he is the seal of the Prophets. 'After' is emphasised because he knew that Ali would outlive him based upon revelations; it has no connection to Harun (عليه السلام) being a Prophet or leader after Musa (عليه السلام) as it is accepted by both Sunni and Shia that Harun (عليه السلام) died before Musa (عليه السلام). Essentially this specific phrase has no relevance to the topic other than the mean that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is Al-Khatimun Nabiyyin

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5 minutes ago, Ar.alhindi said:

Meaning that Harun (عليه السلام) was a Prophet alongside Musa (عليه السلام) but Ali cannot be a Prophet alongside Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as he is the seal of the Prophets. 'After' is emphasised because he knew that Ali would outlive him based upon revelations; it has no connection to Harun (عليه السلام) being a Prophet or leader after Musa (عليه السلام) as it is accepted by both Sunni and Shia that Harun (عليه السلام) died before Musa (عليه السلام). Essentially this specific phrase has no relevance to the topic other than the mean that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is Al-Khatimun Nabiyyin

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) wasn't a Prophet during and after these words of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) either so I believe that argument does not really makes sense.

Furthermore, if it was only about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) staying in Medina for a fixed time it makes no sense to talk about what will happen after the departure of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as well.

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7 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) wasn't a Prophet during and after these words of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) either so I believe that argument does not really makes sense.

Furthermore, if it was only about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) staying in Medina for a fixed time it makes no sense to talk about what will happen after the departure of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as well.

'After' can also mean sequentially without referring to time, so Harun (عليه السلام) was (made) a Prophet after Musa (عليه السلام) even though he died before him - Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gave Musa (عليه السلام) prophethood first. Fundamentally I am saying that no matter which way you look at it - time or sequentially or whatever else - it has no relevance to Twelver beliefs. It is no more a claim of proof of leadership after the death of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) than a Sunnis claim that Abu Bakr was the leader just because he lead prayers whilst he was ill. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) reward Ali for staying behind and protecting the women and children at the expense of joining the battle, but at the end of the day, it doesn't have a religious impact on one's beliefs.

Edited by Ar.alhindi
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5 hours ago, Ar.alhindi said:

No, the reason why Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) compared him to Harun (عليه السلام) was because he was displeased with having to stay behind and protect the women and children rather than go to battle (Ali: "Do you leave me with the children and the women?"), so to comfort him, he said he was just like Harun (عليه السلام) as it was he who stayed behind to look after the people whilst Musa (عليه السلام) left to receive the commandments on Mount Sanai

Harun(عليه السلام) assisted Musa(عليه السلام) since the  Musa(عليه السلام) was ordered to go Firaun till his death. Khilaft of Harun(عليه السلام) was just one affair out of the total life  of Harun(عليه السلام)

Messenger of Allah(عليه السلام) comparing the position of Harun(عليه السلام) to Musa(عليه السلام) is not limited to the event of Tabuk. Imam Ali(عليه السلام) assisted the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) since the beginning of his mission.

You are to me in the position that Harun was to Musa except that there is no Prophet after me.

When Allah ordered Musa to go the Pharaoh He(عليه السلام) prayed to the lord for an assistant.

Go to the Firaun. Indeed he has transgressed. He said my lord expand for me my breast and ease for me my task and untie(the) knot from my tongue that they may understand my speech and appoint for me an assistant from my family Harun my brother. Increase through him my strength and make him share my task. 20:24-32.

And We had certainly given Musa the scripture and appointed with him his brother Harun as an assistant. 25:35

Qur'an compares sending of the Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to the sending of Musa(عليه السلام) to Firaun.

Indeed, We have sent to you a Messenger as a witness upon you same as We sent to Firaun a messenger.73:15

Then We sent Musa and his brother Harun with our signs and a clear authority. (23:45) To Firaun and his establishment, but they were arrogant and were a haughty people.(23:46).

Imam Ali(عليه السلام) assisted the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) since the beginning of his mission till the death of the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).The only occasion was of Tabuk where he(عليه السلام) was ordered by the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to stay in the Madinah.

So according to hadith e Manzilah Imam Ali(عليه السلام) was the assistant and partner in the affair of the messenger of Allah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) through out his life.you can not limit the hadith to the event of Tabuk only.

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7 hours ago, Ar.alhindi said:

 ... at the end of the day, it doesn't have a religious impact on one's beliefs.

It was narrated that Sa`d bin Waqqas said:

"Mu`awiyah came on one of his pilgrimages and Sa`d entered upon him. They mentioned `Ali, and Mu`awiyah criticized him. Sa`d became angry and said:

'Are you saying this of a man of whom I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: "If I am a person's close friend, `Ali is also his close friend."

And I heard him say: "You are to me like Harun was to Musa, except that there will be no Prophet after me."

And I heard him say: "I will give the banner today to a man who loves Allah and His Messenger."

Sunan Ibn Majah

 

So what do you mean with it has no impact on one's religious beliefs?

 

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17 hours ago, Faruk said:

It was narrated that Sa`d bin Waqqas said:

"Mu`awiyah came on one of his pilgrimages and Sa`d entered upon him. They mentioned `Ali, and Mu`awiyah criticized him. Sa`d became angry and said:

'Are you saying this of a man of whom I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: "If I am a person's close friend, `Ali is also his close friend."

And I heard him say: "You are to me like Harun was to Musa, except that there will be no Prophet after me."

And I heard him say: "I will give the banner today to a man who loves Allah and His Messenger."

Sunan Ibn Majah

 

So what do you mean with it has no impact on one's religious beliefs?

 

These things praise Ali, yes - that is why Sa'd mentioned them - but they are not things which indicate leadership following the death of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at all, nor is Sa'd using it as an evidence for Wilayah here, rather it is to contradict the criticism of Mu'awiyyah. There are numerous praises given to various Sahabah; it is only the Twelvers who go to extreme lengths to give these virtues religious implications e.g. the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said about Julaybib "He is from me and I am from him" 3 times, yet it does not mean that Julaybib received a special position Islamically in the Akhirah as a Sayyid or something; anything of a similar effect said about Ali or the Ahlul Bayt warrants a group Salawat and is used as a weak Daleel to prove the Wilayah.

Anyone with a fair objective mind would agree with what I am saying here but because it undermines Twelver polemics, it is disregarded by you lot.

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22 hours ago, elite said:

Harun(عليه السلام) assisted Musa(عليه السلام) since the  Musa(عليه السلام) was ordered to go Firaun till his death. Khilaft of Harun(عليه السلام) was just one affair out of the total life  of Harun(عليه السلام)

Messenger of Allah(عليه السلام) comparing the position of Harun(عليه السلام) to Musa(عليه السلام) is not limited to the event of Tabuk. Imam Ali(عليه السلام) assisted the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) since the beginning of his mission.

You are to me in the position that Harun was to Musa except that there is no Prophet after me.

When Allah ordered Musa to go the Pharaoh He(عليه السلام) prayed to the lord for an assistant.

Go to the Firaun. Indeed he has transgressed. He said my lord expand for me my breast and ease for me my task and untie(the) knot from my tongue that they may understand my speech and appoint for me an assistant from my family Harun my brother. Increase through him my strength and make him share my task. 20:24-32.

And We had certainly given Musa the scripture and appointed with him his brother Harun as an assistant. 25:35

Qur'an compares sending of the Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to the sending of Musa(عليه السلام) to Firaun.

Indeed, We have sent to you a Messenger as a witness upon you same as We sent to Firaun a messenger.73:15

Then We sent Musa and his brother Harun with our signs and a clear authority. (23:45) To Firaun and his establishment, but they were arrogant and were a haughty people.(23:46).

Imam Ali(عليه السلام) assisted the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) since the beginning of his mission till the death of the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).The only occasion was of Tabuk where he(عليه السلام) was ordered by the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to stay in the Madinah.

So according to hadith e Manzilah Imam Ali(عليه السلام) was the assistant and partner in the affair of the messenger of Allah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) through out his life.you can not limit the hadith to the event of Tabuk only.

Tarbuk was the only time that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned it, as far as I am aware. Yes, it is true that Ali assisted him throughout his lifetime, and yes it is a praise to be compared to Harun (عليه السلام), but Harun (عليه السلام) was declared by Allah to be a Prophet to help Musa (عليه السلام) at the beginning of the prophethood of Musa (عليه السلام), whereas Ali was only compared to Harun (عليه السلام) before a specific battle many years after the start of the prophethood of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). It is therefore under this specific context that we can see the parallel that he has been compared to staying behind just like Harun (عليه السلام) stayed behind. Conversely, if you can prove with authentic narrations that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) compared him to Harun (عليه السلام) in different situations before and after Tarbuk, then you might have a point and I would have to reflect on my position. Until then, it remains an unconvincing argument to give this praise and comparison any special religious implication.

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55 minutes ago, Ar.alhindi said:

Tarbuk was the only time that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned it, as far as I am aware. Yes, it is true that Ali assisted him throughout his lifetime, and yes it is a praise to be compared to Harun (عليه السلام), but Harun (عليه السلام) was declared by Allah to be a Prophet to help Musa (عليه السلام) at the beginning of the prophethood of Musa (عليه السلام), whereas Ali was only compared to Harun (عليه السلام) before a specific battle many years after the start of the prophethood of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). It is therefore under this specific context that we can see the parallel that he has been compared to staying behind just like Harun (عليه السلام) stayed behind. Conversely, if you can prove with authentic narrations that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) compared him to Harun (عليه السلام) in different situations before and after Tarbuk, then you might have a point and I would have to reflect on my position. Until then, it remains an unconvincing argument to give this praise and comparison any special religious implication.

context of the hadith is comparison of the position of  Harun(عليه السلام) to Musa(عليه السلام) and Imam Ali(عليه السلام) to Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Position of Harun(عليه السلام) to Musa(عليه السلام) was as an assistant & Khalifa. 

Harun(عليه السلام) worked as Khalifa during the life of Musa(عليه السلام) where as  Imam Ali was not during the life of the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

By the hadith, only position which  remains to be compared is the position as an assistant.

There is no parallel that can be compared between staying behind of of Harun(عليه السلام) and staying behind of Imam Ali(عليه السلام).

Harun(عليه السلام) was ordered by Musa(عليه السلام) to stay behind as a khalifa with his people and only Musa left where as only Imam Ali(عليه السلام) was ordered to stay behind with children and women and Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left with most of his companions.

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12 hours ago, Ar.alhindi said:

These things praise Ali, yes - that is why Sa'd mentioned them - but they are not things which indicate leadership following the death of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at all, nor is Sa'd using it as an evidence for Wilayah here, rather it is to contradict the criticism of Mu'awiyyah. There are numerous praises given to various Sahabah; it is only the Twelvers who go to extreme lengths to give these virtues religious implications e.g. the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said about Julaybib "He is from me and I am from him" 3 times, yet it does not mean that Julaybib received a special position Islamically in the Akhirah as a Sayyid or something; anything of a similar effect said about Ali or the Ahlul Bayt warrants a group Salawat and is used as a weak Daleel to prove the Wilayah.

Anyone with a fair objective mind would agree with what I am saying here but because it undermines Twelver polemics, it is disregarded by you lot.

In both sunnism and shi'ism the Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in particular have a favoured position above Sahaba.

"Whoever I am his Mawla, Ali is his Mawla".

It says to love Imam Ali (عليه السلام) more than your own selves. 

Not only the ordinairy Muslims but the Sahaba as well, Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه), Umar (رضي الله عنه) and Uthman (رضي الله عنه) included. They were commanded to love him (عليه السلام) as they love the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Who else had that status other than Imam Ali (عليه السلام) among the Sahaba?

Still certain so-called sahaba could not follow that command. Their followers are still present today.

It has nothing to do with sunnism nor shi'ism. I call it Umawi Islam.

Any fair objective mind would agree that to support the establishment and to venerate its founder which characteristic was hatred towards Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and the Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام) is unislamic and that it undermines the credibility and glory of the era after the Rashidun Caliphs which was nothing but an ordinairy monarchy using Islam as a tool to reign.

And by the way, 

I'm a Sunni in fiqh and do not believe in imamate.

 

 

Edited by Faruk
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On 5/13/2019 at 9:37 AM, Ar.alhindi said:

Tarbuk was the only time that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned it, as far as I am aware. Yes, it is true that Ali assisted him throughout his lifetime, and yes it is a praise to be compared to Harun (عليه السلام), but Harun (عليه السلام) was declared by Allah to be a Prophet to help Musa (عليه السلام) at the beginning of the prophethood of Musa (عليه السلام), whereas Ali was only compared to Harun (عليه السلام) before a specific battle many years after the start of the prophethood of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). It is therefore under this specific context that we can see the parallel that he has been compared to staying behind just like Harun (عليه السلام) stayed behind. Conversely, if you can prove with authentic narrations that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) compared him to Harun (عليه السلام) in different situations before and after Tarbuk, then you might have a point and I would have to reflect on my position. Until then, it remains an unconvincing argument to give this praise and comparison any special religious implication.

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) during his life time, for a small area donot leave anyone at his place and you want to prove that he left world without leaving anyone at his place or left someone other than Ali (عليه السلام)?

Harun (عليه السلام) was potential caliph but he passed away earlier which has nothing to do with Haruns (عليه السلام) caliphate. While Ali A S lived after Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) therefore this hadith alone is sufficient evidence that Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made(by order of Allah) his caliph Ali (عليه السلام)

 

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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I think this Mr..Bean guy needs to read the verse pointing out caliphate of Harun (عليه السلام) again. 

Then tell me wasn't Harun (عليه السلام) caliph after Hazrat Musa (عليه السلام)? Just because he didn't out live Musa, no way this can be used to reject his relation with Musa (عليه السلام)

And similar is relation of Ali (عليه السلام) with Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) . This relation isn't bounded by life or death. Also Mola Ali lived after Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) therefore he was hujjat upon the people and whoever diverted from hujjat, we cannot believe in them.

Musa (عليه السلام) prayed and got Haron (عليه السلام) appointed by Allah . This relation only existed between Ali (عليه السلام) and Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and whoever denies hujjat e Khuda ,he should think and care for himself

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On 5/10/2019 at 11:49 AM, elite said:

Yusha bin Noon bin ifraim bin Yusuf bin yaqub bin Ishaq bin Ibrahim.   Al- Kamil fi al-Tairkh Ibn athir vol 1 pg 200

Yusha Bin Noon(عليه السلام) was from the progeny of Yusuf Bin Yaqub(عليه السلام).      Tarikh al -Yaqubi vol 1 pg 46

Abi Abdullah (عليه السلام) said Musa alayhi salam. appointed Yusha Ibn Noon(عليه السلام) and Yusha Bin Noon(عليه السلام) appointed Son of Harun(عليه السلام) He neither appointed his son nor he appointed son of Musa(عليه السلام). Indeed Allah has right of choice he chooses  whom he wish from who he wish……

Al kafi vol 1 pg 293 hadith no 3.

Wasi of the Musa(عليه السلام) was Yusha Bin Noon  that is the young man Allah mighty and majestic mentioned in his book.

Al kafi vol 8 pg 117. ( above sentence from the long hadith referring to 18:60)

Safra’a bint Shuiab wife of Musa(عليه السلام) fought with Yusha bin Noon and she was defeated.

 

That was just a contradiction of hadith quoted by @Aquib RizviRizvi

Plus according to Qur'an, Ale Musa or Ale Haroon was choosen so if Yousha bin Noon was successor of Musa (عليه السلام) then he should be from sons of either Musa (عليه السلام) or Haroon (عليه السلام)

Plus what about his father and grand father? They have to be pious ones alright?

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17 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

That was just a contradiction of hadith quoted by @Aquib RizviRizvi

Plus according to Qur'an, Ale Musa or Ale Haroon was choosen so if Yousha bin Noon was successor of Musa (عليه السلام) then he should be from sons of either Musa (عليه السلام) or Haroon (عليه السلام)

Plus what about his father and grand father? They have to be pious ones alright?

According to Qur'an Ale Ibrahim(عليه السلام) was chosen

Allah chose Adam and Nuh and Ale Ibrahim and Ale Imran over the all people.3:33

Yousha bin noon was from the Ale Ibrahim(عليه السلام)  and after him he appointed son of Harun(عليه السلام) who was also  from  the Ale Ibrahim(عليه السلام).

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On 5/15/2019 at 10:17 AM, elite said:

According to Qur'an Ale Ibrahim(عليه السلام) was chosen

Allah chose Adam and Nuh and Ale Ibrahim and Ale Imran over the all people.3:33

Yousha bin noon was from the Ale Ibrahim(عليه السلام)  and after him he appointed son of Harun(عليه السلام) who was also  from  the Ale Ibrahim(عليه السلام).

Yea brother this verse, and another verse supports our stance.

If yousha (عليه السلام) was descendent of Yaqoob (عليه السلام) then according to surah anam verse, he could be choosed as Allah says that among their fathers, and brothers and descendents, we choosed them.

I was just stuck with one ayah without reading the other.

Thanks for your reply I got one more ayah in our favour!

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On 5/13/2019 at 4:29 PM, Ar.alhindi said:

Anyone with a fair objective mind would agree with what I am saying here but because it undermines Twelver polemics, it is disregarded by you lot.

You should of been banned from this forum long time ago. It is only due to the Muslim tolerance and an utmost piety that Sunnis such as yourself can keep insulting us and nothing is done about it. What undermines Sunni polemics is following generations of people who persecuted, killed and engaged in genocide against the Prophet’s family and those that follow(ed) their teachings. Only a person devoid of any morality, sanity or simple human compassion could ever follow such religion with its theological “logic”. 

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On 5/13/2019 at 6:37 AM, Ar.alhindi said:

Tarbuk was the only time that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned it, as far as I am aware. Yes, it is true that Ali assisted him throughout his lifetime, and yes it is a praise to be compared to Harun (عليه السلام), but Harun (عليه السلام) was declared by Allah to be a Prophet to help Musa (عليه السلام) at the beginning of the prophethood of Musa (عليه السلام), whereas Ali was only compared to Harun (عليه السلام) before a specific battle many years after the start of the prophethood of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

'Except there will be no Prophet after me' indicates that he (عليه السلام) was designated with a title and not just a temporary task.

After Hijra, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was designated as the brother of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) just as Harun (عليه السلام) was to Musa (عليه السلام).

His father Abu Talib (عليه السلام) was called Imran by birth just like the father of Musa and Harun (عليه السلام).

There are too much simmilarities to neglect his special status.

As a Sunni (only in fiqh though) I don't support the belief that only Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) was fortunate enough to have converted parents to Islam. 

Just as the Jews feared Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) the Quraish (Umayyads and Abbasids) feared the aale Muhammad (عليه السلام) and so they tried to discredit them at all costs even if they had to slander the parents of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

 

Edited by Faruk
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On 5/18/2019 at 4:20 PM, OrthodoxTruth said:

Only a person devoid of any morality, sanity or simple human compassion could ever follow such religion with its theological “logic”. 

I think he will say exactly this same statement to people like us who talk about the sahabas he likes.

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13 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

I think he will say exactly this same statement to people like us who talk about the sahabas he likes.

Well in my humble opinion Sunni's have no foot to stand on as long they venerate Muawiya who innovated institutionalized cursing to begin with.

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On 5/27/2019 at 10:57 PM, Faruk said:

'Except there will be no Prophet after me' indicates that he (عليه السلام) was designated with a title and not just a temporary task.

After Hijra, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was designated as the brother of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) just as Harun (عليه السلام) was to Musa (عليه السلام).

His father Abu Talib (عليه السلام) was called Imran by birth just like the father of Musa and Harun (عليه السلام).

There are too much simmilarities to neglect his special status.

As a Sunni (only in fiqh though) I don't support the belief that only Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) was fortunate enough to have converted parents to Islam. 

Just as the Jews feared Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) the Quraish (Umayyads and Abbasids) feared the aale Muhammad (عليه السلام) and so they tried to discredit them at all costs even if they had to slander the parents of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

 

Statements which have been used for various Sahabah are always elevated by Twelvers when said about Ali RA - "He is from me and I am from him" has been said regarding other people (e.g. Julaybib), and similarly "X is like a Prophet except there is no Prophet after me" has been said regarding other people (e.g. Umar). It is a virtue, yes, but it is not a delegation of ongoing authority and power which becomes obligatory upon the Ummah to follow.

There seems to be a specific theme amongst Twelver beliefs which incline towards Ghuluw e.g. the weak belief that the Ka'aba miraculously opened up and Ali RA was born inside it, and it is no different regarding his virtues as I mentioned.

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1 hour ago, Ar.alhindi said:

Statements which have been used for various Sahabah are always elevated by Twelvers when said about Ali RA - "He is from me and I am from him" has been said regarding other people (e.g. Julaybib), and similarly "X is like a Prophet except there is no Prophet after me" has been said regarding other people (e.g. Umar). It is a virtue, yes, but it is not a delegation of ongoing authority and power which becomes obligatory upon the Ummah to follow.

There seems to be a specific theme amongst Twelver beliefs which incline towards Ghuluw e.g. the weak belief that the Ka'aba miraculously opened up and Ali RA was born inside it, and it is no different regarding his virtues as I mentioned.

It's not alone amongst Twelvers. It (the venerarion of Ahl al-Bayt in general and Imam Ali (KW) in particular) over Sahaba can be found in mainstream sunnism as well. 

The claim that various Sahaba were atributed some virtues do not change the fact that Imam Ali (KW) was granted an elevated status above the former.

To use this claim as an argument is a littlebit simplistic and inaccurate.

Point is that some calling theirselves Sunni come close to nasb only because they want to counter Shi'I beliefs. Thereby throwing away the baby with the washing water.

Imam Ali's status is special, with or without imamate and he (KW) is the only controversial personality when it comes to status.

Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) gained his status by men but thr status of imsm Ali ((KW) was granted by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

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