Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Faruk said:

I don't know Arabic.

Learn it.

2 hours ago, Faruk said:

 Can you give me more details about the story?

No, it ends there.

2 hours ago, Faruk said:

 Who were those people?

Jews.

2 hours ago, Faruk said:

 Why did they pray like that?

Because, when they were captivated by Nebuchadnezzar II, and sent to Babylon, they were influenced by the Babylonian, Sumerian, Zoroastrian and Neo-Babylonian beliefs, that prayed that way. And since they were idol worshipers, they used to place the idol in their hands (in a fistful or grip) and pray. And they used to raise their voices with 'Amen,' because their gods were deaf, and inanimate.

Here, you can see how Jews pray:

 

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

It is true, Salafism does appeal to both reverts and newly practising Muslims alike.

It is almost as if their open mindedness in seeking truth and enlightment ceases after turning literalist and fundamentalist. The amount of reverts I have seen online and off who somehow develop a hatred towards Shia is astounding, yet the majority of their information is from Sunni/Salafi sources. Most did not learn about Islam from non-Muslim texts, so why do the same for Shia Islam?

It is because if you don't know anything about  Shi'ism, their excuse of the Jafari madhab being misguided sounds reasonable at first glance but the problem is the Salafis are vague about it. From my experience. it was hearing some of the more ridiculous accusations about Shias (having tails) that led me look into the Jafari madhab. I mean I was naive but not THAT naive, you know what I mean?

Shia Islam is seem as a political entity and "inaccessible" to the general Western mindset. Also, it doesn't help that Shia Islam is connected to Iran or a minority in the Islamic world. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

I have a penchant for people that use such utterances (or beliefs...), when they’re put through critical situations.

(e.g., ‘There is no proof for so-and-so in the holy scripture, why should I believe in it?!’)

Howbeit, there’s also ‘no proof..’ for the amount of prostrations, call to prayer or kneeling... Over and above, there isn’t ‘proof’ for the way to make pilgrimage or what to say in the prayer, (e.g., the verses or passages you recite during it). 

Therefore, since we don’t have these things in our holy scripture, including: the amount of prostrations, and so on— according to your analogy, we should forsake them and pray as we want, and simply ignore the traditions, and firmly grasp with the scripture alone.

(59:7)

“Whatever the Messenger has given you - take; And what he has forbidden you - refrain from;”
 
 
 

So how are you going to find out what to take and what to refrain from when there are no texts all Muslims agree upon except the Qur'an?

Instead of worrying about these futile issues we seem to forget the 1000 and 1 simmilarities we have. The number of prayers are the same. Number of rakaat as well and so on.

After 1400 years can we finally move on for heavens sake?

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Faruk said:

So how are you going to find out what to take and what to refrain from when there are no texts all Muslims agree upon except the Qur'an?

That’s why I referenced the text, where our Holy Prophet says that Jews rabbis will put their right hands on their left. I referenced it from 'Sunni' books, because that’s how you’re supposed to debate. So, these are the points you should perceive:

  1. Reference from their books, that folding hands is a Jewish prayer— so they have to accept it, because it’s from theirs.
  2. The tradition is authentic.
  3. Our Holy Prophet said, that it’s forbidden to liken ourselves to Jews.

Thus, we conclude that folding our hands in prayer is forbidden. As easy as that.

We have a famous ruling in our doctrine, that goes:

New-Project-3.png

That’s roughly translated to: ‘Use as proof against them, what they use as proof for themselves.’

(e.g., use their books and reference them).

And this is what reasoning & logic stands for. In a debate with a Jewish fellow, you would obviously reference the Torah as proof for him, and not use your holy scripture.

28 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Instead of worrying about these futile issues we seem to forget the 1000 and 1 simmilarities we have. The number of prayers are the same. Number of rakaat as well and so on.

It’s not 'futile,' they’re likening their prayer to Jewish prayer, and our Holy Prophet forbade us from doing that.

Abd al-Aziz ibn Baz forbade likening oneself to Jews, Zoroastrians and polytheists here. In addition to Muhammad Saalih Al-Munajjid here. And many referenced medieval 'Sunni' scholars here.

28 minutes ago, Faruk said:

 After 1400 years can we finally move on for heavens sake?

Only if 'Sunnite' & Shi’ite scholars sat down, and debated, we would’ve moved on for heaven’s sake, as you said. But, no matter how many times our scholars call onto them to debate, they refuse and run away. Mostly, they use the hit and run technique, and never debate.

Take Sheikh Yasser Al-Habib for example, he called onto all of these scholars to debate:

  1. Yusif Al-Qaradawi,
  2. Ahmed Al-Tayyib,
  3. Abdul-Aziz Al-ash Sheikh,
  4. Muhammad Hassan,
  5. Mohammed al-Arefe,
  6. Adnan Al-Aroor,
  7. Aid al-Qarni,
  8. Salman al-Ouda,
  9. Muhammad Hassan Al-Dido,
  10. Muhammad Hussein Yaqoub,
  11. Othman Al-Khamis,
  12. Mohammed Al-Zoghbi,
  13. Khalid Al-Wasabi,
  14. Hassan Al-Husseini,
  15. Abdulrahman Al-Dimashqiyah,
  16. Taha Al-Dulaimi,
  17. Jalal Al-Din Muhammad Salah,
  18. Abdulrahman Abdulkhaliq,
  19. Abu Ishaq Al-Heweny,
  20. Mhammad Al-Barrak,
  21. Muhammad Saalih Al-Munajjid,
  22. Salah Abdul Mawjud,
  23. Ahmad Al-Naqib,
  24. Muhammad Al-Fizazi,
  25. Muhammad Abdul Maqsud.

And none of them debated him! All they do is curse and insult him. But, will they ever debate him? No!

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

Learn it

Insha'Allah, fisabilillah,

Did you?

Quote

No, it ends there.

Just that one sentence out of nowhere?

Strange hadith.

Quote

Jews

.So they were Jews?

You writing G-d instead of God or Allah is also a Jewish practice. Why you do that since it is Jewish?

Quote

 

, when they were captivated by Nebuchadnezzar II, and sent to Babylon, they were influenced by the Babylonian, Sumerian, Zoroastrian and Neo-Babylonian beliefs, that prayed that way. And since they were idol worshipers, they used to place the idol in their hands (in a fistful or grip) and pray. And they used to raise their voices with 'Amen,' because their gods were deaf, and inanimate.

Here, you can see how Jews pray:

 

This is as ridiculous as the claim that Muslims worship the moongod.

We can take it back from Babylon to Egypt and study the statue of king Amenemhat III praying.

 

 

 

c6c9382a5e5bef501db7421c7c254cb0.jpg

I can use the same reasoning as you and tell myself that Qabd is closer to the Jews and therefore to the Muslims as well but I ain't so narrow-minded.

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Did you?

I’m Arabian.

11 minutes ago, Faruk said:

You writing G-d instead of God or Allah is also a Jewish practice. Why you do that since it is Jewish?

The word 'God' is suspected of having a pagan/idolatrous origin, so I’m taking my precaution.

11 minutes ago, Faruk said:

We can take it back from Babylon to Egypt and study the statue of king Amenemhat III praying.

As for the Egyptian king... Who told you he was praying? I’m verily mindful & acquainted with seeing their statues and idols, in real life. But, what made you so sure that he was praying?

Just because, he has his arms in that way, doesn’t mean he prayed such.

Take Taharqa for example, he has the same statue, in the same position:

Nubian-Pharoahs.jpg

But, that doesn’t mean, that this is how Taharqa prayed, we have another statue of him:

image.jpg

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

In the book of Al-Badr Al-Munir, volume 3, page 511-512:

The Messenger of Allah said: “It is as if I am looking at the rabbis of the Children of Israel, placing their rights on their lefts.” (e.g., right hand on left). 

imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-vv-Wp-HUAhnkd0

Excuse me but you told me this was about the Jews.

It says that the Prophet s.as.w said:

“It is as if I am looking at the rabbis of the Children of Israel, placing their rights on their lefts.” (e.g., right hand on left)."

Isn't that kind of double if he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was looking at the Jews anyway?

It would sound more logical if non Jews or non-descendants of the Bani Israel would resemble who they are not.

Otherwise the claim of resemblance sounds unnecessary.

Second of all,

Those who condemn qabd or defend sadl wether Sunni or Shia use the argument that this 'innovation' took place during the Rashidun era or at least after the departure of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

This is why I find thisone sentence hadith a bit strange.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Faruk said:

Isn't that kind of double if he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was looking at the Jews anyway?

Looking at the Jews? He was speaking of something in the future...

Also, even if the tradition says that he did, and you found it 'kind of double,' I'm not the one to be blamed for, go and blame 'Sunni' scholars for placing it there.

1 minute ago, Faruk said:

Those who condemn qabd or defend sadl wether Sunni or Shia use the argument that this 'innovation' took place during the Rashidun era or at least after the departure of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

 This is why I find thisone sentence hadith a bit strange.

It was an innovation in our religion itself, but it had been an innovation in Judaism for thousands of years (at that time).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

It's not 'futile,' they’re likening their prayer to Jewish prayer, and our Holy Prophet forbade us from doing that.

There are several verses in the Qur'an which reminds us of an Islam which went through the Ahl al-Kitab. They prayed and fasted as well. Should we condemn that for your claim or do you have more in common with Egyptian kings?

18 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

Abd al-Aziz ibn Baz forbade likening oneself to Jews, Zoroastrians and polytheists here. In addition to Muhammad Saalih Al-Munajjid here. And many referenced medieval 'Sunni' scholars here.

I am not a Salafi brother'. However I can use the same anwser I used above.

20 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

Only if 'Sunnite' & Shi’ite scholars sat down, and debated, we would’ve moved on for heaven’s sake, as you said. But, no matter how many times our scholars call onto them to debate, they refuse and run away. Mostly, they use the hit and run technique, and never debate.

Take Sheikh Yasser Al-Habib for example, he called onto all of these scholars to debate:

  1. Yusif Al-Qaradawi,
  2. Ahmed Al-Tayyib,
  3. Abdul-Aziz Al-ash Sheikh,
  4. Muhammad Hassan,
  5. Mohammed al-Arefe,
  6. Adnan Al-Aroor,
  7. Aid al-Qarni,
  8. Salman al-Ouda,
  9. Muhammad Hassan Al-Dido,
  10. Muhammad Hussein Yaqoub,
  11. Othman Al-Khamis,
  12. Mohammed Al-Zoghbi,
  13. Khalid Al-Wasabi,
  14. Hassan Al-Husseini,
  15. Abdulrahman Al-Dimashqiyah,
  16. Taha Al-Dulaimi,
  17. Jalal Al-Din Muhammad Salah,
  18. Abdulrahman Abdulkhaliq,
  19. Abu Ishaq Al-Heweny,
  20. Mhammad Al-Barrak,
  21. Muhammad Saalih Al-Munajjid,
  22. Salah Abdul Mawjud,
  23. Ahmad Al-Naqib,
  24. Muhammad Al-Fizazi,
  25. Muhammad Abdul Maqsud.

And none of them debated him! All they do is curse and insult him. But, will they ever debate him? No!

Ah ok! So you're from the YH camp. 

I already was wondering why you're having such a harsh mindset.

You should take an example from the Ayatollah's of the IRI. They don't condemn. They come with solutions fir Sunni AND Shia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Faruk said:

We can take it back from Babylon to Egypt and study the statue of king Amenemhat III praying.

Egyptian kings weren't always following the same God... some worshiped Ishtar, others went for the sun... They were always 'volatile,' or moody and unstable. They worshiped different gods, depending on the era. (e.g., Romans, Persians and Hittites..)

It's said that Amenhotep IV (or Akhenaten) was a monotheist. While others, went for Ra, Horus and/or Amun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

I’m Arabian

Then why did you only translated part of the hadith and refused to translate the rest?

13 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

The word 'God' is suspected of having a pagan/idolatrous origin, so I’m taking my precaution.

And you really do believe that ommiting one letter of a German word makes the diffirence? Then why don't you say Allah?

17 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

As for the Egyptian king... Who told you he was praying? I’m verily mindful & acquainted with seeing their statues and idols, in real life. But, what made you so sure that he was praying?

Just because, he has his arms in that way, doesn’t mean he prayed such.

Take Taharqa for example, he has the same statue, in the same position:

Go to Google and type king Amenemhat III praying.

Archeologers claim this just as they claimed the Sumerian statues were in a prayer position.

Let's not be childish and admit that the ancient statues game wont bring us any further.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

Egyptian kings weren't always following the same God... some worshiped Ishtar, others went for the sun... They were always 'volatile,' or moody and unstable. They worshiped different gods, depending on the era. (e.g., Romans, Persians and Hittites..)

It's said that Amenhotep IV (or Akhenaten) was a monotheist. While others, went for Ra, Horus and/or Amun.

You're really going beyond the pale. :hahaha:

Are you aware you're using a theory from Sigmund Freud now?

Besides that Akhneton lived around 1300BC while Amenhemhat III lived around 1800BC.

Amenhemhat III was a worshipper of Amon and not Aton.

I have to go Simon. Have a nice night.

Salam ...

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Faruk said:

There are several verses in the Qur'an which reminds us of an Islam which went through the Ahl al-Kitab.

The People of the Book that were mentioned in our Holy Book were monotheists, they differ from the current era ones.

9 minutes ago, Faruk said:

They prayed and fasted as well.

While they did pray... but, fasting was reserved for the nation of our Holy Prophet. Back then, fasting was only done by Prophets & their successors.

12 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Should we condemn that for your claim or do you have more in common with Egyptian kings?

As I said before, not all Egyptian kings were idol worshipers, all of them differed in beliefs. Some are suspected of being Monotheist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Then why did you only translated part of the hadith and refused to translate the rest?

Why are you so keen on believing that the tradition has a complement? It ended, that's it.

5 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Go to Google and type king Amenemhat III praying.

Archeologers claim this just as they claimed the Sumerian statues were in a prayer position.

Let's not be childish and admit that the ancient statues game wont bring us any further.

And do you really believe that by typing 'Amnemhat III praying,' that I'll see how he really prayed, or if that was really his prayer?

What makes me so sure, that the picture you sent me of him, was his prayer, and that it wasn't something else...?

While I, on the other hand, have historical proof, that Sumerians, Zoroastrians and Jews prayed with their hands folded.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Ah ok! So you're from the YH camp. 

I already was wondering why you're having such a harsh mindset.

 You should take an example from the Ayatollah's of the IRI. They don't condemn. They come with solutions fir Sunni AND Shia.

Won't do any good. Flattering and sugarcoating for the two sects, will not be a solution. A historical debate will help. But as I said, no one dares to debate us, sadly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...