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In the Name of God بسم الله

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23 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

 

These Sunni madhabs gained mass following and popularity due in part to Abassid support and adoption, as it was not in their political interest for the Jafari madhab to spread, even though it predates the 4 others.

I totally agree with you except using the term 'Sunni' madahib. My point was that the Abbasid era cannot be considered a Sunni era nor the Hanafi madhab as a Sunni madhab. The only 'Sunni' characteristic it had was the fact that their rulers were no members of the Ahl al-Bayt. Mutazilism and dynastic rule are against the concepts of current Sunnism. 

Edited by Faruk

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19 minutes ago, aaaz1618 said:

 

What most people say these days about sadl is that Imam Malik only did it because he was beaten and he was unable to bring his arms to his chest. Later students saw him do this and this is why there is some difference of opinion. I believe this to be utter nonsense mass driven by the sorts of people that say what they say about Shi'a practices. It just seems alien to me that an entire school that holds the Ahlul Bayt as their teachers would not be praying how we were told to pray 1400 years ago. While the 'orthodox' school pray like Jews and as I now know Sumerians!

Imam Malik himself nor the real Maliki followers never claimed this. This is just a cheap assumption. 

The anti-Sadl attitude comes from Salafi's pretending to be to Ahl as-Sunnah.

Statues in Sadl position can also be found with Google.

I don't take both statues as proof.

Edited by Faruk

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1 minute ago, aaaz1618 said:

Literal approaches work for a lot of converts, usually as a form of rigidity in a once chaotic life, and good for them if it brings them peace, but it doesn't work for me.

It is true, Salafism does appeal to both reverts and newly practising Muslims alike.

It is almost as if their open mindedness in seeking truth and enlightment ceases after turning literalist and fundamentalist. The amount of reverts I have seen online and off who somehow develop a hatred towards Shia is astounding, yet the majority of their information is from Sunni/Salafi sources. Most did not learn about Islam from non-Muslim texts, so why do the same for Shia Islam?

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16 minutes ago, aaaz1618 said:

I prefer mutazilism and reasoning over literalist approaches. Literalism puts human restrictions on God and God's Word. Literal approaches work for a lot of converts, usually as a form of rigidity in a once chaotic life, and good for them if it brings them peace, but it doesn't work for me.

I believe there are diffirent categories of believers. Literal, bright, dynamic, etc.

And that it's a Mercy of Allah.

The problem we have today is that the literist category of believers are in charge and leading the majority with yhe consequence that the other categories are downplayed.

We need more tolerance and do more independent research.

Unfortunately ignorance is at its peak.

Edited by Faruk

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1 hour ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Not to mention with the exception of Malik who lived his entire life in al Madinah and a student of Imam al Sadiq (عليه السلام) (as was Abu Hanifah), the rest lived in the regions "opened" to Islam (or conquered), so possibly had some external influences.

Not sure if you have seen these pre-Islamic Sumerian prayer statues before:

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(Below, we can see a hand-folding Zoroastrian).

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(Here, we can see how Jews, Christians and ‘Muslims’ pray with their shoes).

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Edited by Simon the Canaanite

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1 hour ago, aaaz1618 said:

This is like me, except I don't ascribe to either side... But I read about a certain caliph seeing Jewish people pray the Amidah prayer and he said he liked how it was done so incorporated the hand grasping and head turning into our prayers. 

Interresting! Maliki's also claim that the order to clasp the hands came from someone other than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Can you provide me with the source?

 

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30 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

It is almost as if their open mindedness in seeking truth and enlightment ceases after turning literalist and fundamentalist. 

I think what happens is this, many converts have had bad lives, whether it is due to war, drugs, alcohol or just bad life choices. They see salafism which is very heavily available to people around the world outside of Shi'a countries, they can easily access it. Salafism and some Sunni schools basically say, you have everything you need in the Qur'an and Sahih hadiths, and this appeals to people who want order and stability. 

Reasoning, aql, Islamic philosophy even, these are things that they may learn about much later, and it is of no interest to them because it disturbs the idea that you have everything you need in Sahih hadiths and those hadiths are not to be questioned. It's like being lost, if you have a map then you will follow the map, you won't stray to see if you can find aore enjoyable or interesting path to your destination. The thought of straying off that literalist path after years of comfort is a threat to a person's entire life, everything changes once you change course. Not just that, but reasoning, philosophy etc may be seen as atheistic traits, they aren't at all, but that may be how some see it.

I could talk about this sort of thing all day, but I am conscious it has gone off topic so I will finish it there :coffee:

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1 minute ago, aaaz1618 said:

I could talk about this sort of thing all day, but I am conscious it has gone off topic so I will finish it there :coffee:

Thanks, would be nice to hear from the former Sunnis-turned-Shia on this site responding to the original post, I know there are several.

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11 minutes ago, aaaz1618 said:

I think what happens is this, many converts have had bad lives, whether it is due to war, drugs, alcohol or just bad life choices. They see salafism which is very heavily available to people around the world outside of Shi'a countries, they can easily access it. Salafism and some Sunni schools basically say, you have everything you need in the Qur'an and Sahih hadiths, and this appeals to people who want order and stability. 

Reasoning, aql, Islamic philosophy even, these are things that they may learn about much later, and it is of no interest to them because it disturbs the idea that you have everything you need in Sahih hadiths and those hadiths are not to be questioned. It's like being lost, if you have a map then you will follow the map, you won't stray to see if you can find aore enjoyable or interesting path to your destination. The thought of straying off that literalist path after years of comfort is a threat to a person's entire life, everything changes once you change course. Not just that, but reasoning, philosophy etc may be seen as atheistic traits, they aren't at all, but that may be how some see it.

I could talk about this sort of thing all day, but I am conscious it has gone off topic so I will finish it there :coffee:

I believe your analysis is close to correct! 

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8 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Interresting! Maliki's also claim that the order to clasp the hands came from someone other than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Can you provide me with the source?

In the book of Al-Badr Al-Munir, volume 3, page 511-512:

The Messenger of Allah said: “It is as if I am looking at the rabbis of the Children of Israel, placing their rights on their lefts.” (e.g., right hand on left). 

imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-vv-Wp-HUAhnkd0

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16 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Interresting! Maliki's also claim that the order to clasp the hands came from someone other than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Can you provide me with the source?

 

'Yahia narrated from Malik, from Abu Hazim bin Dinar, through Sahl bin Sa'd who said: the people were ordered that a man should place his right hand on his left arm in the prayer. Abu Hazim said: I knew that the Messenger of Allah ordered that.' (Al-Muwatta, pg. 79, Book 9: Shortening the Prayer on Traveling) 

Abu Hazim received this information second hand from Sahl bin Sa'd, who if I am not mistaken was a child during the lifetime of the Prophet, peace and blessings upon him and his family. 

'Yahia narrated from Malik, from 'Abdel-Karim bin Abu Al-Mukhariq Al-Basri who said "the things learned from the words of the earliest prophecies were, 'if you do not feel shame, do whatever you like', placing the hand on the other, making haste to break the fast and delaying the suhoor' (same page of Al-Muwatta).

No mention of the Prophet, peace be upon him and his family, telling them to do this. None of these hadiths came from the Prophet himself, and the fact that people were apparently 'ordered' to fold their hands meant that at some point they did something else other than fold their hands before.

This correlates with claims by scholars of the Alhul Bayt who stated such actions were a later innovation. Interesting how the hadith talks about doing what you like so long as you don't feel shame. Seems a bit odd that.

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8 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

In the book of Al-Badr Al-Munir, volume 3, page 511-512:

The Messenger of Allah said: “It is as if I am looking at the rabbis of the Children of Israel, placing their rights on their lefts.” (e.g., right hand on left). 

imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-vv-Wp-HUAhnkd0

I don't know Arabic. 

Can you give me more details about the story?

Who were those people?

Why did they pray like that?

Etcetera.

 

Edited by Faruk

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16 minutes ago, aaaz1618 said:

'Yahia narrated from Malik, from Abu Hazim bin Dinar, through Sahl bin Sa'd who said: the people were ordered that a man should place his right hand on his left arm in the prayer. Abu Hazim said: I knew that the Messenger of Allah ordered that.' (Al-Muwatta, pg. 79, Book 9: Shortening the Prayer on Traveling) 

Abu Hazim received this information second hand from Sahl bin Sa'd, who if I am not mistaken was a child during the lifetime of the Prophet, peace and blessings upon him and his family. 

'Yahia narrated from Malik, from 'Abdel-Karim bin Abu Al-Mukhariq Al-Basri who said "the things learned from the words of the earliest prophecies were, 'if you do not feel shame, do whatever you like', placing the hand on the other, making haste to break the fast and delaying the suhoor' (same page of Al-Muwatta).

No mention of the Prophet, peace be upon him and his family, telling them to do this. None of these hadiths came from the Prophet himself, and the fact that people were apparently 'ordered' to fold their hands meant that at some point they did something else other than fold their hands before.

This correlates with claims by scholars of the Alhul Bayt who stated such actions were a later innovation. Interesting how the hadith talks about doing what you like so long as you don't feel shame. Seems a bit odd that.

Well there is the hardcore Shia stance defending only Sadl and the hardcore Salafi stance defending only Qabd.

And there is the Ahl as-Sunnah stance supporting both.

Why can't both be right or permissible?

It's very easy to imagine that during long prayers people used Qabd to ease the burden and that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did this as well or at least allowed it or that people believed it to be permissible because it was done in nawafil prayers at well.

As long one places his hands in known positions or in sadl I believe it does not invalidate one's Islam.

Edited by Faruk

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16 minutes ago, Faruk said:

I don't know Arabic. 

Can you give me more details about the story?

There isn’t a story, it’s a tradition.

.قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم : «كأني أنظر إلىٰ أحْبار بني إسرائيل واضعي أيمانهم علىٰ شمائلهم في الصلاة» وإسنادهما جيد

Edited by Simon the Canaanite

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3 minutes ago, Simon the Canaanite said:

There isn’t a story, it’s a tradition.

.قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم : «كأني أنظر إلىٰ أحْبار بني إسرائيل واضعي أيمانهم علىٰ شمائلهم في الصلاة» وإسنادهما جيد

How can I know?

I don't know Arabic yet you give me an Arabic text again?

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