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AmirioTheMuzzy

Please help this brother out [he found out that his wife is a man]

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16 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

 

This has to be a joke and trolling. Wahhabis post such things all over the place to defame us. Too bad they forget how many Sunni transsexuals, transgenders and cross dressers are there in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Malaysia. In many of those places, Sunni males marry such “women” permanently and even try to justify it Islamically. 

 

Edited by OrthodoxTruth

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4 minutes ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

This has to be a joke and trolling. Wahhabis post such things all over the place to defame us. Too bad they forget how many Sunni transsexuals, transgenders and cross dressers are there in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Malaysia. In many of those places, Sunni males marry such “women” permanently and even try to justify it Islamically. 

Thank God. I was laughing so hard when I read the original post, and then I felt bad for laughing, and then I asked Allah to forgive me and ensure that this situation never happens to me.

Basically, I'm a fool. LOL

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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9 minutes ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

 In many of those places, Sunni males marry such “women” permanently and even try to justify it Islamically. 

It happens in Iran also. In many ways it is a way for homosexuals to marry if one undergoes the op.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1157609/

As of 2008, Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except Thailand.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_Iran

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1 minute ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

It happens in Iran also. In many ways it is a way for homosexuals to marry if one undergoes the op.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1157609/

As of 2008, Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except Thailand.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_Iran

I knew someone will bring that up. In Iran, it’s a method of making “homosexuals” become normal again because the issue with them is understood as a mental/psychological one, and not physical. Therefore they undergo mandatory sex change from male to female so that they could enter nikah and live Islamically. It was chosen as a method instead of killing them, as was done previously. That said, the entire practice is not universally accepted among the ulama and many maraji’ rule it not allowed based on the Qur'an [4:119-120], where altering the creation is haram. The method of sex change is allowed only for those doing taqlid to Sayyid Khamenei, and whichever other scholars before (Sayyid Khomeini) and after him ruled it permissible. My marja’ doesn’t allow it at all. In short, there is a difference of opinion on this issue, and the acceptability of changing your sex will depend on your marja`.

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4 minutes ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

In Iran, it’s a method of making “homosexuals” become normal again because the issue with them is understood as a mental/psychological one, and not physical. Therefore they undergo mandatory sex change from male to female so that they could enter nikah and live Islamically. 

I already mentioned the point of facilitating homosexuals to marry.

However the text in bold makes no sense.

You stated it is perceived as a mental issue, not a physical one, then proceed to say such people undergo a sex change. That solution sounds quite physical to me. 

Actually, very.

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43 minutes ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

I knew someone will bring that up. In Iran, it’s a method of making “homosexuals” become normal again because the issue with them is understood as a mental/psychological one, and not physical. Therefore they undergo mandatory sex change from male to female so that they could enter nikah and live Islamically. It was chosen as a method instead of killing them, as was done previously. That said, the entire practice is not universally accepted among the ulama and many maraji’ rule it not allowed based on the Qur'an [4:119-120], where altering the creation is haram. The method of sex change is allowed only for those doing taqlid to Sayyid Khamenei, and whichever other scholars before (Sayyid Khomeini) and after him ruled it permissible. My marja’ doesn’t allow it at all. In short, there is a difference of opinion on this issue, and the acceptability of changing your sex will depend on your marja`.

Are you sure? I thought the sex change was only allowed for intersexuals.

You can't just magically change your sex, it makes no sense. Undergoing surgery doesn't suddenly make you a woman.

Intersexuals is a bit different, they're born with both genitalia, so they can undergo surgery to become their proper sex to fit into Islamic structure.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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2 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

However the text in bold makes no sense.

You stated it is perceived as a mental issue, not a physical one, then proceed to say such people undergo a sex change. That solution sounds quite physical to me. 

Actually, very.

Those are not my ideas. In Iran, it is seen as a mental/psychological defect and not a physical therefore when someone is a feminine gay, cross dresser etc. (a male that exhibits female traits) the person has to have their sex change procedure formalised so that they could engage in proper nikah as a biological female. It is a physical solution to the mental/psychological problem. 

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3 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Are you sure? I thought the sex change was only allowed for intersexuals.

You can't just magically change your sex, it makes no sense. Undergoing surgery doesn't suddenly make you a woman.

Intersexuals is a bit different, they're born with both genitalia, so they can undergo surgery to become their proper sex to fit into Islamic structure.

We don’t go by the Western concepts and ideas. No, in Iran it’s done mainly to gay effeminate men so they could became physical females and marry. “Homosexuality” is punishable by death.

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4 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

 

I’m pretty sure the mutah is still allowed actually no joke. Cuz transgender operations are allowed in certain specific situations. It’s done with care and caution though. Once the gender is changed they should be treated as that gender. So if they’re female now a mutah with that female should be fine.

Edited by TryHard

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5 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

It was chosen as a method instead of killing them, as was done previously. 

When?

Never in all Islamic governments, since the time of the Prophet, have effeminate men (mukhanathun, which encompassed crossdressers, homosexuals, transsexuals, and effeminate men) been killed merely for their condition, at least in theory. Early caliphs used castration on men with this condition.

In no way I approve the approach and LGBT rights present in Iran which are ridiculous, inhumane and simply ashaming. But they don't legally kill gays for being gays. Homophobia that turns into murders is, still, present in countries like Iraq and Iran, but these murders are committed by hateful individuals and groups, and not the government. In some cases, religious authorities may encourage, indirectly, and maybe unwillingly, these unjust cruel death squads. May God judge them accordingly.

Moreover, I would also add that most Islamic governments, even though don't kill a gay person merely for its condition, do private him from a lot of basic rights and terrorize him. If it's not the main actor of homophobia, it hugely contributes to it. We are talking about serious and deadly violence here.

Edited by Bakir

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On 4/29/2019 at 9:30 PM, OrthodoxTruth said:

Those are not my ideas. In Iran, it is seen as a mental/psychological defect and not a physical therefore when someone is a feminine gay, cross dresser etc. (a male that exhibits female traits) the person has to have their sex change procedure formalised so that they could engage in proper nikah as a biological female. It is a physical solution to the mental/psychological problem. 

Your post still is confusing. Like I said, I understand why it is done so they can enter a marriage.

However if acknowledging a problem is mental or psychological then surely it can be treated with conversion therapy, medication, counselling, etc. Basically a mental/psychological cure.

You adding "therefore" they need a biological solution implies it is actually a biological issue. Otherwise all they are doing is letting mentally unstable people go around being part of society, uncured and entering marriage with some changes made to their body.

Surely you can see this?

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12 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

We don’t go by the Western concepts and ideas. No, in Iran it’s done mainly to gay effeminate men so they could became physical females and marry. “Homosexuality” is punishable by death.

Brother, that's disgusting. If you marry a "transgendered woman" you are marrying a man. Surgery doesn't change anything.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy

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Just now, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Brother, that's disgusting. If you marry a "transgendered woman" you are marrying a man. Surgery doesn't change anything.

That's not what Sayed al-Khomeini said. Iran actively funds and encourages transgender operations especially for men who claim to be gay. 

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12 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

Those are not my ideas. In Iran, it is seen as a mental/psychological defect and not a physical therefore when someone is a feminine gay, cross dresser etc. (a male that exhibits female traits) the person has to have their sex change procedure formalised so that they could engage in proper nikah as a biological female. It is a physical solution to the mental/psychological problem. 

One problem that arises who suffer from gender dysmorphia is that they, like people with body dysmorphia, try to hide the perceived flaw. So essentially surgery is catering to hiding the flaw. It isn't solving the fact that they feel like a woman in a man's body. 

Born with conflicting genitalia etc, fair enough, that is an actual thing, but society tells cross dressers or people who feel a different gender that their feelings are true. If you applied that to any other mental health disorder involving delusional thought you would be laughed out of town. Do we tell schizophrenics with delusions of grandeur that they are messiahs? God have mercy of course not. Do we tell people with depression that life is miserable and life is pointless? No. So why has society pushed us to do so with gender dysmorphia?

People with such conditions need therapy, as one of the other members mentioned, they are valued and equal members of society without doubt, but they need to be treated properly.

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On 4/30/2019 at 1:18 AM, OrthodoxTruth said:

I knew someone will bring that up. In Iran, it’s a method of making “homosexuals” become normal again because the issue with them is understood as a mental/psychological one, and not physical. Therefore they undergo mandatory sex change from male to female so that they could enter nikah and live Islamically. It was chosen as a method instead of killing them, as was done previously.

@OrthodoxTruth

Let’s say that I have those mental/psychological problems and thus am a man with “effeminate” behavioural traits but wish to follow orthodox Islam.

Even though suicide is haram, as you mentioned, “effeminate” men were previously killed. Since I am “effeminate,” should I kill myself or be executed?

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1 hour ago, Northwest said:

@OrthodoxTruth

Let’s say that I have those mental/psychological problems and thus am a man with “effeminate” behavioural traits but wish to follow orthodox Islam.

Even though suicide is haram, as you mentioned, “effeminate” men were previously killed. Since I am “effeminate,” should I kill myself or be executed?

@Northwest

I’m not a marja’ to issue rulings. Contact the one that you follow and ask. You can also inquire Iranian officials about policies of their country, I’m not Iranian. I just stated the facts, that’s all. 

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On 4/30/2019 at 4:19 PM, Bakir said:

When?

Never in all Islamic governments, since the time of the Prophet, have effeminate men (mukhanathun, which encompassed crossdressers, homosexuals, transsexuals, and effeminate men) been killed merely for their condition, at least in theory. Early caliphs used castration on men with this condition.

Done previously in Iran under Ayatollah Khomeini, we discuss the Islamic Republic’s approach towards this subject. 

Quote

In no way I approve the approach and LGBT rights present in Iran which are ridiculous, inhumane and simply ashaming. But they don't legally kill gays for being gays. Homophobia that turns into murders is, still, present in countries like Iraq and Iran, but these murders are committed by hateful individuals and groups, and not the government. In some cases, religious authorities may encourage, indirectly, and maybe unwillingly, these unjust cruel death squads. May God judge them accordingly.

Please don’t pass your personal beliefs as an Islamic judgment because you are not a marja’. In early 2000, Ayatollah Sistani sanctioned killings of gays and effeminate men, after hundreds were killed, he retracted his fatwa. The same groups of people were executed under Ayatollah Khomeini and even today, but to lesser degree. So in Iran, in order not to kill them, they are compiled to undergo sex surgery. Such are facts. 

On 4/30/2019 at 6:30 PM, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Your post still is confusing. Like I said, I understand why it is done so they can enter a marriage.

However if acknowledging a problem is mental or psychological then surely it can be treated with conversion therapy, medication, counselling, etc. Basically a mental/psychological cure.

You adding "therefore" they need a biological solution implies it is actually a biological issue. Otherwise all they are doing is letting mentally unstable people go around being part of society, uncured and entering marriage with some changes made to their body.

Surely you can see this?

Whether I agree or disagree with Iranian approach, doesn’t really matter. My marja’ forbids sex change surgeries, so I assume that your approach would be the only one available realistically. However, I’m not an expert in this field and I can’t say much. 

On 5/1/2019 at 2:39 AM, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Brother, that's disgusting. If you marry a "transgendered woman" you are marrying a man. Surgery doesn't change anything.

Agreed. However, Sayyid Khamenei and those of ulama who agree with him, would of disagreed with us. 

On 5/1/2019 at 3:25 AM, aaaz1618 said:

One problem that arises who suffer from gender dysmorphia is that they, like people with body dysmorphia, try to hide the perceived flaw. So essentially surgery is catering to hiding the flaw. It isn't solving the fact that they feel like a woman in a man's body. 

Born with conflicting genitalia etc, fair enough, that is an actual thing, but society tells cross dressers or people who feel a different gender that their feelings are true. If you applied that to any other mental health disorder involving delusional thought you would be laughed out of town. Do we tell schizophrenics with delusions of grandeur that they are messiahs? God have mercy of course not. Do we tell people with depression that life is miserable and life is pointless? No. So why has society pushed us to do so with gender dysmorphia?

People with such conditions need therapy, as one of the other members mentioned, they are valued and equal members of society without doubt, but they need to be treated properly.

My thoughts are as above. I oppose sex surgeries based upon my marja’ fatwa. As for the rest, I’m not an expert how to treat such people Islamically. 

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On 4/30/2019 at 8:39 AM, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Brother, that's disgusting. If you marry a "transgendered woman" you are marrying a man. Surgery doesn't change anything.

I was quite immature when I wrote this. Apologies.

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2 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

I was quite immature when I wrote this. Apologies.

By this I mean it is childish to call something "disgusting" so brandishly

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Salaam to all

I am a doctor by profession and all of you who are trying to justify that sex change will change them to the sex they acquired are totally wrong

A person's sex is defined genetically and no matter how big surgeries you undergo, your basic genetic makeup will be the original

Meaning if you were born male and you underwent surgery to become female

You won't be able to bear child 

This actually means a transgender female is literally and actually a male

And if a male married that female that means he is now having intercourse with a man and thus doing sodomy one of the major sins explained in the holy Qur'an

I don't think any of the marjay or scholars would allow such marriages to undergo or such surgeries to take place

Do recheck the marjay about this issue cos it's a very sensitive issue and it leads to one of the major sins in Islam(sodomy)

May Allah guide us all

Ameen

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How does one define an “effeminate” man?

Does a man who is excessively sensitive (to pain, noise, various stimuli, and daily life) qualify as effeminate, even if he does not seek to commit sodomy?

Could many “autistic” men qualify as effeminate, along with men who remain dependent into their twenties, despite being able-bodied?

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17 hours ago, Northwest said:

How does one define an “effeminate” man?

Does a man who is excessively sensitive (to pain, noise, various stimuli, and daily life) qualify as effeminate, even if he does not seek to commit sodomy?

Could many “autistic” men qualify as effeminate, along with men who remain dependent into their twenties, despite being able-bodied?

@AmirioTheMuzzy @OrthodoxTruth @Sumerian

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On 4/30/2019 at 4:34 AM, OrthodoxTruth said:

“Homosexuality” is punishable by death.

No this is not true. Homosexuality is not punishable by death or otherwise in Iran. I have spoken to several homosexual males living in Iran. Clearly there is a law in Iran that will exempt homosexual males from military duty if they register them selves as homosexuals. If Homosexuality was punishable by death such a law would not make sense. It is perfectly possible for homosexuals to live relatively open with their partner in cities such as Tehran or Shiraz. A friend of mine that is homosexual and live in Iran even spoke about bringing his boyfriend from eastern Europe to live with him in Iran. So it is no more difficult for gay men to live in Iran than it is in say Russia. What goes on in the confines of peoples homes is something the Iranian government does not police. That is also why there is a lot of alcohol consumed in peoples homes. Iranians are no more pious that people from other countries and heterosexual adultery is also common.
What is punishable by death in Iran is open promiscuity that takes place in public spaces for everyone to see and has 4 or more credible witnesses. Especially in rural/conservative areas. The cases where homosexuals has been executed in Iran, it has not been because they are homosexuals, but because they had committed homosexual acts in public.
That being said homophobia is wide spread and homosexuals are discriminated against in Iran. One of the more serious problems in that regard is the prevention of diseases such as HIV/AIDS that carries a homosexual stigma even when heterosexuals are infected.

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On 5/30/2020 at 12:48 PM, OrthodoxTruth said:

Agreed. However, Sayyid Khamenei and those of ulama who agree with him, would of disagreed with us. 

I think that Sayyid Ali Khamenei would not have made his Fatwa on gender change if it was not because Imam Khomaini had issued a fatwa on the subject first.

https://www.muslimworldtoday.org/maryam_khatoon_molkara_and_transsexuality_in_shia_islam

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