The Case Against God

[khamosh21]

May Allah forgive me for the following, but these thoughts and questions have been creating many difficulties for me...

Why give humans the ability to choose if these choices will lead to some of their destruction? None of these indicate that there is love, mercy etc involved when considering the final outcome of some human beings. A God which could conjure hell as a consequence for the actions of His very own creations is a nonsensical idea.

Imagine this scenario. Your loved one is sick and is taken to the hospital. The doctor has the cure in his hands… without this medicine your loved one will surely perish. Yet the Doctor withholds the medicine. Why you plead? He says your loved one did this to them selves. They should have eaten the medicines I gave them before. They should not have eaten unhealthy foods. They should have exercised. Did their intelligence not guide them? Did they not heed my advice and of those that are healthy around them or of those that perished before them? Sorry today they will have to account for what they did, today they will not be given a cure. Please tell me what you think of this doctor?

Is it not the same with God? He has the cure yet He allows so many to perish and suffer, not only in this world, but so many more for eternity. Please may Allah forgive me, but not to be harsh, is it a big feat if the Prophet or the Imam do not sin? Are they not able to see the reality behind the actions and have knowledge of the unseen?… would not the same apply to me, if tomorrow I see fire instead of the pleasure of sin, I would of course avoid it. Why do I have to rely on the account of 1400 year old men, why not just give me the cure directly?

Edited April 27, 2019 by khamosh21
typo

[Guest Ali sultan]

This is your simplest right to ask and doubt.

your main problem with justice of God.

If God is just

  Why difference in this world?  Why is there a preference in this universe?
  Why are there black and white?  Ugly and beautiful? Healthy and patient?  Human and animal?
  Why are natural disasters such as earthquakes, volcanoes and floods?  Why create harmful and predatory animals?
  Why does God create us and then we end up dying?
  Why is there no fit between guilt and punishment?
  How can it be reasonable to put the infidel who served humanity in the fire and put the wicked Muslim in Paradise?

You can find the answers in murtada mutahhari divine justice book

[khamosh21]

On 4/27/2019 at 3:27 PM, Guest Ali sultan said:

This is your simplest right to ask and doubt.

your main problem with justice of God.

If God is just

  Why difference in this world?  Why is there a preference in this universe?
  Why are there black and white?  Ugly and beautiful? Healthy and patient?  Human and animal?
  Why are natural disasters such as earthquakes, volcanoes and floods?  Why create harmful and predatory animals?
  Why does God create us and then we end up dying?
  Why is there no fit between guilt and punishment?
  How can it be reasonable to put the infidel who served humanity in the fire and put the wicked Muslim in Paradise?

You can find the answers in murtada mutahhari divine justice book

Yea I don't know man, I've read parts of it as well as aqaid books of some other ulema... although they provide somewhat reasonable and intellectual answers, they don't really satiate the questions... sometimes I'm wondering I'm losing faith and going to die an athiest... kinda scary

[layman]

On 4/28/2019 at 3:30 AM, khamosh21 said:

May Allah forgive me for the following, but these thoughts and questions have been creating many difficulties for me...

Why give humans the ability to choose if these choices will lead to some of their destruction? None of these indicate that there is love, mercy etc involved when considering the final outcome of some human beings. A God which could conjure hell as a consequence for the actions of His very own creations is a nonsensical idea.

Imagine this scenario. Your loved one is sick and is taken to the hospital. The doctor has the cure in his hands… without this medicine your loved one will surely perish. Yet the Doctor withholds the medicine. Why you plead? He says your loved one did this to them selves. They should have eaten the medicines I gave them before. They should not have eaten unhealthy foods. They should have exercised. Did their intelligence not guide them? Did they not heed my advice and of those that are healthy around them or of those that perished before them? Sorry today they will have to account for what they did, today they will not be given a cure. Please tell me what you think of this doctor?

Is it not the same with God? He has the cure yet He allows so many to perish and suffer, not only in this world, but so many more for eternity. Please may Allah forgive me, but not to be harsh, is it a big feat if the Prophet or the Imam do not sin? Are they not able to see the reality behind the actions and have knowledge of the unseen?… would not the same apply to me, if tomorrow I see fire instead of the pleasure of sin, I would of course avoid it. Why do I have to rely on the account of 1400 year old men, why not just give me the cure directly?

Has a sincere love to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Ahlul Bayt and ask the same questions to them.  You will have the answer.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does not close the door to anyone who is sincere.

All it takes just one event, maybe a milliseconds (you may feel few hours), that something will will be shown to you on "why".  This is called "witnessing".  Witnessing is higher than logic.  That moment you will see the power, mercy  and the truth.

But many who are despaired of knowing the truth about Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and did not work hard enough.  They wanted God to make everything to them, rather than they try their best to prepare their life for God.  Basically a short cut.  These people will only understand God at the moment of death or when they are drown in the swirling water and nothing to grasp onto.

All Prophets suffered the most and never a short cut.  It is because they have seen the truth about Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), they did not care about sufferings.  They see sufferings as tests and they feel peaceful in their heart as they took the tests...basically the test felt like they living in heaven for them because they knew Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is with them and they feel the peace and tranquility in the heart. The "why" ceases in them.

Edited April 28, 2019 by layman

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 4/28/2019 at 12:00 AM, khamosh21 said:

Is it not the same with God? He has the cure yet He allows so many to perish and suffer, not only in this world, but so many more for eternity. Please may Allah forgive me, but not to be harsh, is it a big feat if the Prophet or the Imam do not sin? Are they not able to see the reality behind the actions and have knowledge of the unseen?… would not the same apply to me, if tomorrow I see fire instead of the pleasure of sin, I would of course avoid it. Why do I have to rely on the account of 1400 year old men, why not just give me the cure directly?

Salam the cure is just in front of us but we forget it every time & it's Imam Mahdi (aj) as Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) said during his ocultation  he is like as sun behind clouds that we take lesser benefit from it & Imam Mahdi (aj) said that " I'm aware of your condition everytime & if I didn't know your condition enemies will perish you" but for full cure of our world we need his reappearance that as caliph of Allah on Earth will totally cure  diseases of our world but if we don't pray & don't be ready for his reappearance as you said we must rely to 1400 years old men until his reappearance but for preparation as we receive from people that visited him we must increase our knowledge & beside reading Qur'an and understanding of it for make it practical in our life & praying on time & performing Salat l Layl it's come in a famous story that Imam Mahdi (aj) said why you don't read Ziarat Ashura & Jamia Kabira that repeated ech of them three times that in my opinion beside reading of these two ziarat we must understand them & use them in our daily life. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Ashvazdanghe

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

On 4/27/2019 at 2:30 PM, khamosh21 said:

Why give humans the ability to choose if these choices will lead to some of their destruction?

Where you have the choice? Lets ask from Qur'an:

إِنَّا هَدَيْنَاهُ السَّبِيلَ إِمَّا شَاكِرًا وَإِمَّا كَفُورًا {3}

[Shakir 76:3] Surely We have shown him the way: he may be thankful or unthankful.

Shown you the "Sabeel" and then given you the choice to be shakir or kafir. This verse alone can give the answer to all of your questions, if you continue to ponder over it. And I do want you to ponder over these blessed verses so that you can learn and find the answers of your questions. 

On 4/27/2019 at 2:30 PM, khamosh21 said:

None of these indicate that there is love, mercy etc involved when considering the final outcome of some human beings

If you read the verse 1 & 2 of the same chapter, you will come to know how wrong you're. Your limited worldly existence itself is evidence against your such thoughts. 

هَلْ أَتَىٰ عَلَى الْإِنْسَانِ حِينٌ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ لَمْ يَكُنْ شَيْئًا مَذْكُورًا {1}

[Shakir 76:1] There surely came over man a period of time when he was a thing not worth mentioning.

إِنَّا خَلَقْنَا الْإِنْسَانَ مِنْ نُطْفَةٍ أَمْشَاجٍ نَبْتَلِيهِ فَجَعَلْنَاهُ سَمِيعًا بَصِيرًا {2}

[Shakir 76:2] Surely We have created man from a small life-germ uniting (itself): We mean to try him, so We have made him hearing, seeing.

So instead of filing a case against God, you better know what that God has a case against you, and that case is mentioned in the following verse:

قُلْ هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْشَأَكُمْ وَجَعَلَ لَكُمُ السَّمْعَ وَالْأَبْصَارَ وَالْأَفْئِدَةَ ۖ قَلِيلًا مَا تَشْكُرُونَ {23}

[Shakir 67:23] Say: He it is Who brought you into being and made for you the ears and the eyes and the hearts: little is it that you give thanks.

See the matter again connected with the verse 3 of chapter 76, (Imma shakiran wa imma kafoora) as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said "qaleelan ma tashkaroon" 
 

On 4/27/2019 at 2:30 PM, khamosh21 said:

A God which could conjure hell as a consequence for the actions of His very own creations is a nonsensical idea.

Lets see the two creation for a while and get the answer from your heart and share with us what your heart responded. 

One creation is Hussain (عليه السلام), the other is Yazid (Laeen). I hope that you are familiar with these two creations and their actions. Actually your idea would be considered as nonsensical  
if you think that God would not punish the oppressor, the zalim from above two created beings. It is very sensible, rational that the oppressor from the above two must get the punishment.

On 4/27/2019 at 2:30 PM, khamosh21 said:

Imagine this scenario. Your loved one is sick and is taken to the hospital. The doctor has the cure in his hands… without this medicine your loved one will surely perish. Yet the Doctor withholds the medicine. Why you plead? He says your loved one did this to them selves. They should have eaten the medicines I gave them before. They should not have eaten unhealthy foods. They should have exercised. Did their intelligence not guide them? Did they not heed my advice and of those that are healthy around them or of those that perished before them? Sorry today they will have to account for what they did, today they will not be given a cure. Please tell me what you think of this doctor?

Do you really know what will happen on that "Day"? The one whom you are calling as "loved one" will not be your loved one. Lets see the "loved ones" first:

الْأَخِلَّاءُ يَوْمَئِذٍ بَعْضُهُمْ لِبَعْضٍ عَدُوٌّ إِلَّا الْمُتَّقِينَ {67}

[Shakir 43:67] The friends shall on that day be enemies one to another, except those who guard (against evil).

يَوْمَ يَفِرُّ الْمَرْءُ مِنْ أَخِيهِ وَأُمِّهِ وَأَبِيهِ وَصَاحِبَتِهِ وَبَنِيهِ لِكُلِّ امْرِئٍ مِنْهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ شَأْنٌ يُغْنِيهِ
80:34-37) The day on which a man shall fly from his brother, And his mother and his father, And his spouse and his son-- Every man of them shall on that day have an affair which will occupy him.

Do you know why the friends becomes enemy? Why the loved ones fly from each other on that day? What would they be expecting or asking from each other? 

On 4/27/2019 at 2:30 PM, khamosh21 said:

would not the same apply to me, if tomorrow I see fire instead of the pleasure of sin, I would of course avoid it.

Whatever I have shared above (the verses of Qur'an) is the knowledge of the unseen. You have the news and you have every information you require to save yourself from the painful punishment. You have everything with you sufficient for opening of your eyes and correction of your actions. You just need to act accordingly, you always have two options "Imma shakiran wa imma kafoora" and these two options will come after the guidance becomes manifest to you. You must chose to be among the thankful one.

May Almighty Lord have mercy on you and guide you. 

Wassalam. 

[eThErEaL]

On 4/27/2019 at 3:30 PM, khamosh21 said:

May Allah forgive me for the following, but these thoughts and questions have been creating many difficulties for me...

Why give humans the ability to choose if these choices will lead to some of their destruction? None of these indicate that there is love, mercy etc involved when considering the final outcome of some human beings. A God which could conjure hell as a consequence for the actions of His very own creations is a nonsensical idea.

Imagine this scenario. Your loved one is sick and is taken to the hospital. The doctor has the cure in his hands… without this medicine your loved one will surely perish. Yet the Doctor withholds the medicine. Why you plead? He says your loved one did this to them selves. They should have eaten the medicines I gave them before. They should not have eaten unhealthy foods. They should have exercised. Did their intelligence not guide them? Did they not heed my advice and of those that are healthy around them or of those that perished before them? Sorry today they will have to account for what they did, today they will not be given a cure. Please tell me what you think of this doctor?

Is it not the same with God? He has the cure yet He allows so many to perish and suffer, not only in this world, but so many more for eternity. Please may Allah forgive me, but not to be harsh, is it a big feat if the Prophet or the Imam do not sin? Are they not able to see the reality behind the actions and have knowledge of the unseen?… would not the same apply to me, if tomorrow I see fire instead of the pleasure of sin, I would of course avoid it. Why do I have to rely on the account of 1400 year old men, why not just give me the cure directly?

The way I see this is that God is giving us the medicine-prescription through guidance, Qur'an, Shariah, rituals and religious rites.  It is up to us to follow the prescription of the Doctor.      

Also, you might think of it in the following way:

Hell fire or Paradise is not something external to us.  We constitute the Hell or Paradise through our soul.  If we develope hellish characteristics then we become our own Hellfire.  If we develope paradisial qualifies then we become our own paradise.  The diffeeence between this world and the next is that our bodies are veiling us from witnessing our soul as it actually is.  If we could see our soul without the body to veil it then we would see our soul in Hell or in Paradise already.  When we die physically,  the body no longer veils us and so our sight becomes “piercing” as the Qur'an describes.  

Why can’t God simply unveil for us these realities so we can start making the right choices?  The reason is because we choose to veil ourselves by not following His guidance.  

Edited April 29, 2019 by eThErEaL

[khamosh21]

InshAllah I will reply to my brother (guest theobserver) from the past later… first want to respond to some of these thoughts…

I think before we jump into these, I also object to the methodology with which we have received these messages… first of all there have been 124,000 perfect messengers that have been sent with very little historical evidence to back this claim… in addition I have received these messages through a chain of imperfect narrators over a span of 1400 years, everything I am expected to believe about the Prophet Muhammad is based on these imperfect messages. I have not seen a single Prophet. Not a single miracle. Not a single non-natural event occur on this planet. Everything I know is just stories. Some may give examples of Ayt Behjat or Tabatabai, sure they may have been eye witnesses, yet to me still they are only 2^nd hand accounts. I have also met some of today's famous  "Urafa" with again not seeing anything in them other than sincerity and faith, they are amazing people... but again nothing that would say these people are tripping dimensions or can see into my soul...

Brother, how can God have any type of case against me, my entire existence from beginning to eternity is from Him right? I don’t need to prove my existence to Him, or do I? Sounds absurd right? Yet, He does have to do that… and He has done that throughout history… this is why he had to send 124,000 Prophets and uncountable number of awliyas… my only question is, why keep sending people to remind us, why not just actually SHOW us something. You might respond, He has shown people, the miracles of the Prophets etc etc… sorry brother for me they are stories that I have to put faith in, nothing I have seen with my eyes. And that’s really all I want.

Now here is the problem… everyone will say, go purify yourself from sins etc etc… why? Did the people of the past that are my examples have to do this to meet Prophets and Imams, and to see miracles? Also asking a non-Muslim that may have these questions, you can not tell them to go pray salatul layl, and fast… so now you are asking for 10 20 years of my life (if I even have that left)… Why should I have to prescribe myself to any of these… first you need to prove yourself before you ask me to dedicate myself to your way of life… this is besides the point… it should be provable without setting any type of conditions.

Now you are left with only one route to prove yourself, and this is the intellectual and aqli route… to read books for the next 10 years… I don’t understand the purpose behind these challenges and veils when everything could have been transparent to begin with?

People asked and still ask to see Allah… I say fine, if Allah can’t be seen, show me heaven, hell, angels, jinn, the grave, a single hair of the unseen that you claim exists… why do I have to rely on 2^nd hand accounts of all of these things? Why do people have to accept another human being’s word for it? Why haven’t things been kept open and transparent… if God is willing to send Prophets with miracles, why not actually do something which in His Knowledge which surely must be more effective? Or is He limited? Or has He placed limits on Himself? And if He has place limits on Himself, then why has He placed such limits? Why destroy people and place them in hell after creating them? It really doesn’t make sense. He made human beings weak and dumb enough to not accept His very own arguments..??? and then burns them for eternity when they turn out too dumb or evil?

Lets side track here and talk about justice brother… why is fire and pain = justice? These people didn’t need to exist to begin with, so why make them endure pain? Real justice would be not allowing the oppression to take place to begin with… the victim here may completely forget about their oppression in eternity… what good is Allah’s control over time if people are still ending up this way? Also please tell me, it doesn't disturb you to hear accounts of hell? Skin being fried and being recreated and fried? Extreme torture for eternity while a Merciful and Loving Creator watches... technically He is watching those people burn and suffer right this instant.... all the way from when they were semen to the Nth point in time... This does not bother anyone? How can we accept such torture and violence, just the thought of is psychotic...

As for the Yazeed and Imam Hussain case… it’s interesting.. I just want to understand what makes Yazeed Yazeed and Hussain Hussain? Let’s not use a specific case but speak in general of every human being… how exactly is every human being selected to be born in terms of time, place, a parents? Was it possible for “Yazeed” or person "x" to have been born in a different family be a different person or no? What makes Imam Hussain Hussain? Could he be born elsewhere? If Allah were to take away all the knowledge of the unseen He gave them, would he be the same? Also no one asked me if I wanted to come to this planet? Please don't tell me God took some promise from me before I was born, what good is a promise that I can't even remember making? hey brother, you promised you would pay me a 100 dollars... I don't remember... sorry you going to have to burn in hell now if you don't pay up or do your best to remember...

And it does not matter what happened to me. Whether a sinner asks these questions, a Muslim, a Hindu, anyone… these questions exist and they need answers instead of saying you’re veiled (which again requires proof)… almost everything looks imaginary at this time

[khamosh21]

Just want to throw this out... open challenge to anyone, any Arif, Sufi, Enlightened person... challenge to show me an iota of proof that does not require reading and/or some act of worship associated with it. If a person like Ayt Behjat exists, that can allegedly see into a person's soul, take me to such a person, and let this person prove himself to me... I find it really convenient such people are in "hiding" and can't "reveal" themselves...

[Guest YaAli]

The most mysterious thing is Magic. So little is known about it. You are assuming that if you witness miracles, you will believe.   Qur'an says most people when pushed with such miracles, it increased in rebellion for example Moses' miracles was met with words "we will know you are a sorcerer no matter what (supposed) sign/proof you come with". Ultimately, since magic is mystery to them, they said, well a real proof would be if Angels came. So they said, why don't Angels come. The truth is even if Angels come, someone can say they are devils who gave the power to the Prophet or proof of God who is displaying such powers.

Some people know they met Imam Mahdi, but their heart when meeting with him is rushing and afraid, and they are afraid of certainty.

Certainty is a level that takes a pledge and a flight of the soul to a higher place. To people with certainty, they been shown so much miracles and signs, it's nothing to them.

Iblis witnessed Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) who taught all the Angels how to worship and glorify God including Iblis.  The Angels were tried with Adam, and Adam compared to their creation outwardly, is like humans being told their leader and guide is a fly. 

But Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) tried them, and they were to see the beauty of Adam and the spirit being blown into a formed with structure and firm body being.

The Angels passed the test, but Iblis didn't. 

Iblis then sarcastically began to address the highest veils and disbelieved in their Lord.  The thing is if you disconnect from what connects you to God, where will you go?

Iblis saw miracles of Adam and all Prophets and knows the order of the universe is what it is, but he disbelieved in the Lord of the worlds.

Instead, he believed in himself and start to make up his own sky and reality.  He mocked that yes a sincere few will remain sincere to your God o exalted veils while sarcastically addressing their Lord in a playful "I will play along and dance" tone.

Yet the coward has deceived himself and deceives others.  At the end, the proof of God encompasses all humans and Jinn.

If you can't see who is the connection to God and that sustenance of God that he sustains these highest stars connected to this world is something only God the Lord of the universe can create and sustain such immense power and light, and that he guides them by truth, then miracles can't avail.

Miracles remind of the power of God in his holy spirit and name, but to the heart rebelling, it will be convinced that the universe is ruled by misguided Angels, that the trusted trustees of God are either themselves possessed knowing or unknowingly and have acquired such powers through Jinn and Magic, or that they are liars taking advantage of people by sorcery and powers.

It will not see such power can be only created through God's sustenance, guidance, and creative speaking into existence.

Those who disconnect the words of God like Jesus and Ali from God won't benefit from miracles.

Miracles prove that the Guide is who he claims he is, but once, guidance to a degree has been accepted.

The reason for God manifesting the proof is that the circumstances call for it. The reason for God hiding the truth, is because, the circumstances call for it.

With God making it clear day light the proof all the time, people would rebel to their extinction.

With God making it hidden night regarding the proof, people would never see the light.

He alternates between the days of God and the nights of valuing, as a means to reform humans, and bring them to good.

Mohammed was fought and attempted to kill him did the Arabs. The Arabs were Jinn Worshipers, and believe he was a sorcerer. When the Qur'an clarified the distinction between miracles and signs of God vs sorcery and magic and power of Jinns, they said "stories of the Ancients".

If you want to see miracles, the Mahdi is alive, ask to see him from God, but don't run away from the truth if he shows you like many people who do know him well, believe him to be a dark evil sorcerer.

The people who meet the Mahdi, they will be accused of making up stuff and they aren't proofs of God to claim special position among people. But you should know were it not for the Mahdi and his followers as in those who see him and obey him, our enemies would have long took control of the world, and surely they are planning and surely the Mahdi needs more helpers.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Hassan-

[layman]

Salam,

I remembered one story of an old man.  He was a simple person and used to take care of a mosque.  Then, suddenly a stranger came and read a Qur'an from a paper.  The old man told him that the paper he read from is not a Qur'an.  Then the stranger went to see an Aalim.  The Aalim was curious how the old man knew it.  So Aalim brought to the mosque a copy of Qur'an that was tampered.  The old man showed to the Aalim where the place in the copy of the Qur'an that was tampered.  The Aalim then went to see an Ulama who has studied Qur'an for 60 plus year.  For the Ulama, it took him sometimes years to scan new copy of handwritten Qur'an and to ensure there is no tampering. The old man was brought to see the Ulama to identify one copy of a Qur'an that was tampered with very minor changed in one of the verse.  The old man just opened the copy of the Qur'an and showed the page and placed his finger where it was tampered.  The Ulama was puzzled because it too him years to identify, but it took the old man few seconds.  The Ulama asked the old man how he learned the knowledge to achieve the ability.  The old man left and did not inform anybody accept one of his friend.  He told his friend, you can tell my secret 10 year after I die.

What the secret?  The old man would see Light comes out the writings that represent Qur'an.  The tampered part has writings but no Light.  He can immediately knows the writings on paper whether it is represent the Qur'an or not.

The moral of the story is @khamosh21 has not yet see the Light yet.  He is not willing to submit to God  because he is using his logics to bring a case to God.  Iblis did it one time when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) asked him to submit to Adam(عليه السلام). Iblis rebelled after years of worshipping Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and knowing Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the Rabb.  He used his logics and claimed his is superior than Adam in creation.  He is created from fires while Adam was from clay.

On 4/29/2019 at 2:13 PM, khamosh21 said:

Just want to throw this out... open challenge to anyone, any Arif, Sufi, Enlightened person... challenge to show me an iota of proof that does not require reading and/or some act of worship associated with it. If a person like Ayt Behjat exists, that can allegedly see into a person's soul, take me to such a person, and let this person prove himself to me... I find it really convenient such people are in "hiding" and can't "reveal" themselves...

No need to see person like Ayt Behjat, try just a kid below the age of 7.  And ask the kid what he would see when you read Bismillah, salawat or reading a Qur'an or certain duas.  If his veil is opened he will explain what happen.

Then try with other kids.  You will see the consistency.

If you are not lucky, you won't see kids that their veil are opened.

I was lucky to experience with many kids, adults who veils are lifted.  But these people won't tell just to anyone.  

I got lucky one day...that was a writing on my forearm in Arabic.  The meaning is "Believe in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and follow it (direction toward Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)). Years after that I came to know it was a hadith from Fatema Zahra (عليه السلام).  

I have many instances in my life that I was lucky to see "things / events" occured... death, time stop, cloud follow you, dream about future...

Therefore, I have NO case against Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet and Ahlul Bayt... just follow them.  Just as the hadith from Fatema AzZahra (عليه السلام) written on my forearm, when I was a student in the US. 

Disclaimer:

My personal experiences are only relevant to me and me alone and for my own belief in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet and Ahlul Bayt.  I am nobody and just a human like any of you. 

The sharing part it for me to encourage others to seek direction from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through His chose servants...Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).

Pls hold on to Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt.

[Guest YaMuhammad]

If you are not giving God a chance to guide you through his book and it's designated family it has reminded through out it's pages,  who will you go to and who do you expect to prove and manifest the truth to you?

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

my only question is, why keep sending people to remind us, why not just actually SHOW us something.

Surah Adh-Dhariyat, Verse 55:

وَذَكِّرْ فَإِنَّ الذِّكْرَىٰ تَنفَعُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ

And continue to remind, for surely the reminder profits the believers. (English - Shakir) 

This "only" question of yours is reminding me too much of the divine words. Lets see few of them:

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 89:

وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا لِلنَّاسِ فِي هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبَىٰ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ إِلَّا كُفُورًا

And certainly We have explained for men in this Qur'an every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying. (English - Shakir) 

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 90:

وَقَالُوا لَن نُّؤْمِنَ لَكَ حَتَّىٰ تَفْجُرَ لَنَا مِنَ الْأَرْضِ يَنبُوعًا And they say: We will by no means believe in you until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the Earth for us. (English - Shakir) 

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 91:

أَوْ تَكُونَ لَكَ جَنَّةٌ مِّن نَّخِيلٍ وَعِنَبٍ فَتُفَجِّرَ الْأَنْهَارَ خِلَالَهَا تَفْجِيرًا

Or you should have a garden of palms and grapes in the midst of which you should cause rivers to flow forth, gushing out. (English - Shakir) 

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 92:

أَوْ تُسْقِطَ السَّمَاءَ كَمَا زَعَمْتَ عَلَيْنَا كِسَفًا أَوْ تَأْتِيَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ قَبِيلًا

Or you should cause the heaven to come down upon us in pieces as you think, or bring Allah and the angels face to face (with us). (English - Shakir) 

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 93:

أَوْ يَكُونَ لَكَ بَيْتٌ مِّن زُخْرُفٍ أَوْ تَرْقَىٰ فِي السَّمَاءِ وَلَن نُّؤْمِنَ لِرُقِيِّكَ حَتَّىٰ تُنَزِّلَ عَلَيْنَا كِتَابًا نَّقْرَؤُهُ قُلْ سُبْحَانَ رَبِّي هَلْ كُنتُ إِلَّا بَشَرًا رَّسُولًا

Or you should have a house of gold, or you should ascend into heaven, and we will not believe in your ascending until you bring down to us a book which we may read. Say: Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal apostle? (English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 94:

وَمَا مَنَعَ النَّاسَ أَن يُؤْمِنُوا إِذْ جَاءَهُمُ الْهُدَىٰ إِلَّا أَن قَالُوا أَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ بَشَرًا رَّسُولًا

And nothing prevented people from believing when the guidance came to them except that they said: What! has Allah raised up a mortal to be an apostle? (English - Shakir) 

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 95:

قُل لَّوْ كَانَ فِي الْأَرْضِ مَلَائِكَةٌ يَمْشُونَ مُطْمَئِنِّينَ لَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ السَّمَاءِ مَلَكًا رَّسُولًا

Say: Had there been in the Earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle. (English - Shakir)

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

3 minutes ago, Urwatul Wuthqa said:

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 90:

وَقَالُوا لَن نُّؤْمِنَ لَكَ حَتَّىٰ تَفْجُرَ لَنَا مِنَ الْأَرْضِ يَنبُوعًا And they say: We will by no means believe in you until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the Earth for us. (English - Shakir) 

 

6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

You might respond, He has shown people, the miracles of the Prophets etc etc… sorry brother for me they are stories that I have to put faith in, nothing I have seen with my eyes. And that’s really all I want.

Asateer alawwaleen (stories of old times)??? 

Surah An-Nahl, Verse 24:

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُم مَّاذَا أَنزَلَ رَبُّكُمْ قَالُوا أَسَاطِيرُ الْأَوَّلِينَ

And when it is said to them, what is it that your Lord has revealed? They say: Stories of the ancients; (English - Shakir) 

[skinee]

interesting thread...

Edited April 30, 2019 by skinee

[khamosh21]

2 hours ago, Urwatul Wuthqa said:

Surah Adh-Dhariyat, Verse 55:

وَذَكِّرْ فَإِنَّ الذِّكْرَىٰ تَنفَعُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ

And continue to remind, for surely the reminder profits the believers. (English - Shakir) 

This "only" question of yours is reminding me too much of the divine words. Lets see few of them:

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 89:

وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا لِلنَّاسِ فِي هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبَىٰ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ إِلَّا كُفُورًا

And certainly We have explained for men in this Qur'an every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying. (English - Shakir) 

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 90:

وَقَالُوا لَن نُّؤْمِنَ لَكَ حَتَّىٰ تَفْجُرَ لَنَا مِنَ الْأَرْضِ يَنبُوعًا And they say: We will by no means believe in you until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the Earth for us. (English - Shakir) 

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 91:

أَوْ تَكُونَ لَكَ جَنَّةٌ مِّن نَّخِيلٍ وَعِنَبٍ فَتُفَجِّرَ الْأَنْهَارَ خِلَالَهَا تَفْجِيرًا

Or you should have a garden of palms and grapes in the midst of which you should cause rivers to flow forth, gushing out. (English - Shakir) 

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 92:

أَوْ تُسْقِطَ السَّمَاءَ كَمَا زَعَمْتَ عَلَيْنَا كِسَفًا أَوْ تَأْتِيَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ قَبِيلًا

Or you should cause the heaven to come down upon us in pieces as you think, or bring Allah and the angels face to face (with us). (English - Shakir) 

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 93:

أَوْ يَكُونَ لَكَ بَيْتٌ مِّن زُخْرُفٍ أَوْ تَرْقَىٰ فِي السَّمَاءِ وَلَن نُّؤْمِنَ لِرُقِيِّكَ حَتَّىٰ تُنَزِّلَ عَلَيْنَا كِتَابًا نَّقْرَؤُهُ قُلْ سُبْحَانَ رَبِّي هَلْ كُنتُ إِلَّا بَشَرًا رَّسُولًا

Or you should have a house of gold, or you should ascend into heaven, and we will not believe in your ascending until you bring down to us a book which we may read. Say: Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal apostle? (English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 94:

وَمَا مَنَعَ النَّاسَ أَن يُؤْمِنُوا إِذْ جَاءَهُمُ الْهُدَىٰ إِلَّا أَن قَالُوا أَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ بَشَرًا رَّسُولًا

And nothing prevented people from believing when the guidance came to them except that they said: What! has Allah raised up a mortal to be an apostle? (English - Shakir) 

Surah Al-Isra, Verse 95:

قُل لَّوْ كَانَ فِي الْأَرْضِ مَلَائِكَةٌ يَمْشُونَ مُطْمَئِنِّينَ لَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ السَّمَاءِ مَلَكًا رَّسُولًا

Say: Had there been in the Earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as an apostle. (English - Shakir)

Brother some of this is well... contradictory... because for all of the things being described, we believe the Prophet and Imams could very well do and see many of things people were asking for. For example if someone is asking to see heaven or hell, is it really that bad to ask? If the Prophet can see the state of someone in their graves, well wouldn't it be helpful for the rest of us well to at least "see" something. The Prophet was taken on trip to heaven and hell and literally saw judgement day play out. Furthermore, Prophets did very well use miracles to prove their point didn't they? Were they wrong to do so? If it is so wrong to "show" something, then why allow miracles?

So if I am asking for a miracle suddenly I'm being compared to a Kafir lol? I jking...

We are supposed to emulate the Prophets and Imams. Is it not unfair that we are supposed to be like them while having not even a speck of the same knowledge of the unseen they had? Forget that brother, is it so unfair to ask to see someone like them, or an ask Arif to show me his ability? If I don't have it, can I not to ask to see it in someone else?

[khamosh21]

16 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

The way I see this is that God is giving us the medicine-prescription through guidance, Qur'an, Shariah, rituals and religious rites.  It is up to us to follow the prescription of the Doctor.      

Also, you might think of it in the following way:

Hell fire or Paradise is not something external to us.  We constitute the Hell or Paradise through our soul.  If we develope hellish characteristics then we become our own Hellfire.  If we develope paradisial qualifies then we become our own paradise.  The diffeeence between this world and the next is that our bodies are veiling us from witnessing our soul as it actually is.  If we could see our soul without the body to veil it then we would see our soul in Hell or in Paradise already.  When we die physically,  the body no longer veils us and so our sight becomes “piercing” as the Qur'an describes.  

Why can’t God simply unveil for us these realities so we can start making the right choices?  The reason is because we choose to veil ourselves by not following His guidance.  

I have bolded that statement of yours... bolded a statement below which is my response to it...

 

The biggest problem in my view is that the purpose of creation in line with the attributes just do not reconcile. Here is what we have been told about the purpose of creation:

-created for worship of Allah

-created to recognize and attain marifat of Allah

-sent to Earth to become a Khalifa

-created life and death to see who is best in deeds

-eventual end will be in Heaven or Hell

-Hadis Qudsi: I was a hidden treasure and I wished to be known

 

Right? So I don’t get why any of these really matter? What happened to God that at some point in “no time” (how does this make sense?) decided He wanted to be known. What made Him decided He wanted to be known… I mean what exactly changed in Allah’s “life” or whatever He has that He decided this is a good time to do the following experiment….

He decided He’s going to create infinite angels, dinosaurs, a single tiny speck of a dust of a planet where life will begin with betrayal and murder after 15 billion years of waiting, and all of this being done for the sake of 5 perfect reflections that He made of Himself… who will mostly get murdered in cold blood when they are born in humanly form…. then He placed psychotic idol worshipping people who would sacrifice their own people to please their Gods, so He sent Prophets after Prophets that were mostly failures and God wiped those people out violently, placed them in burning dark fire forever, because, after all His creation was stealing and cheating and murdering etc… and people wouldn’t listen to His perfect Messengers that He gave Knowledge and Wisdom to… should I go on… this is absurd… then you gotta die and be squeezed into the ground where some scary or handsome looking angels are going to interrogate you. Then you might have to be tortured for all the sins you did. how does any of this fall in line with knowing His perfect attributes… do His attributes include pain and suffering and hell fire? Is it necessary that some amount suffer infinitely so that others can become Prophets and Allah’s friends for eternity? Why couldn’t every human being born be a Prophet if Allah wanted to be KNOWN? If Allah wanted to give His Mercy to everyone, then why all the crazy obstacles and all of the above and more…

Lastly, given that I have a choice, I should have a choice to obliterate my existence and wipe myself from time completely and not be born. Or I should have a choice to not worship Allah and then not have to suffer dire consequences… this is just blackmail and forceful worship, what good is it? What difference does it make to God if I don’t worship Him… nothing… so why make me suffer brother, if it makes no difference, then just obliterate my existence forever… why not just give me open reign on a universe and let me do whatever I want, while the rest of the universe goes on? This whole story of mankind makes zero sense considering there is an infinitely powerful Creator behind it…

I’m just saying that out of all the routes and possible infinite designs that Allah could have chosen for His creation, why keep the inifinite hell, suffering, pain etc as part of this universe and design? Was Allah forced or limited to making this universe this way…?

Lastly... I can get on board that there is a creator, but it seems more like some computer generated reality in which the Creator doesn’t care really what happens… they just keep messing with us and sending different programs (Prophets) to see how we’ll react and then “delete” us when we are no longer useful to the simulation.  Think about it… can Allah actually feel anything? Does He feel pain or sadness? Happiness? Can He relate to me or you and our lives? Can He relate to eating to stay alive everyday? Or anything that we do on a daily basis to survive?

[HakimPtsid]

On 4/27/2019 at 2:30 PM, khamosh21 said:

May Allah forgive me for the following, but these thoughts and questions have been creating many difficulties for me...

Why give humans the ability to choose if these choices will lead to some of their destruction? None of these indicate that there is love, mercy etc involved when considering the final outcome of some human beings. A God which could conjure hell as a consequence for the actions of His very own creations is a nonsensical idea.

Imagine this scenario. Your loved one is sick and is taken to the hospital. The doctor has the cure in his hands… without this medicine your loved one will surely perish. Yet the Doctor withholds the medicine. Why you plead? He says your loved one did this to them selves. They should have eaten the medicines I gave them before. They should not have eaten unhealthy foods. They should have exercised. Did their intelligence not guide them? Did they not heed my advice and of those that are healthy around them or of those that perished before them? Sorry today they will have to account for what they did, today they will not be given a cure. Please tell me what you think of this doctor?

Is it not the same with God? He has the cure yet He allows so many to perish and suffer, not only in this world, but so many more for eternity. Please may Allah forgive me, but not to be harsh, is it a big feat if the Prophet or the Imam do not sin? Are they not able to see the reality behind the actions and have knowledge of the unseen?… would not the same apply to me, if tomorrow I see fire instead of the pleasure of sin, I would of course avoid it. Why do I have to rely on the account of 1400 year old men, why not just give me the cure directly?

This is quite a very dualistic view of God, which I can't see relating to Shi'ism that much. Many of your questions are tackled often by our Imams too, aside from already being answered in the Qur'an itself. 

Once you really come to contemplate the Tawhid and the notion of the transitory nature of this life, many of your questions kind of start to loose their grip. 

I know in the other two Abrahamic religions, there tend to be a lot of controversial theological paradoxes that cause trouble within their moral and theological system. I don't know if you're a Shi'ite or not but some of these questions where practically obliterated in Imam Ali's sermons, much like in Imam al-Sadiq's writings and of course back in the Qur'an itself when various Surahs where revealed to Prophet Muhammad against certain hostilities, polemics against him and otherwise (such as the actual physical warfare against him). 

On that moralistic and human basis of our own suffering and the attachment to our own egos, I can definitely see why such questions would concern you and I've certainly shared some of them myself. But as far as Islam goes, some of these don't make any sense as arguments against our own theology. If you pitted them up against Christians (not to pick on them but....) for instance, it'd have slightly more of a burn in certain denominations. 

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

12 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Brother some of this is well... contradictory... because for all of the things being described, we believe the Prophet and Imams could very well do and see many of things people were asking for

 One reason for quoting these blessed verses was to let you know that your demands are not new. People in the times of Prophets have asked the same things, they wished that God sent angels to them, they wished that God sent book or revelation on them, they denied the judgement day, they denied the concept of heaven & hell. said the revelation as poetry and story of the ancient etc. 

Please share with us what do you think Prophet & Imams could do and see on their own? 

قَالَتْ لَهُمْ رُسُلُهُمْ إِنْ نَحْنُ إِلَّا بَشَرٌ مِثْلُكُمْ وَلَٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَمُنُّ عَلَىٰ مَنْ يَشَاءُ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ ۖ وَمَا كَانَ لَنَا أَنْ نَأْتِيَكُمْ بِسُلْطَانٍ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَعَلَى اللَّهِ فَلْيَتَوَكَّلِ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ {11}

[Shakir 14:11] Their messengers said to them: We are nothing but mortals like yourselves, but Allah bestows (His) favors on whom He pleases of His servants, and it is not for us that we should bring you an authority except by Allah's permission; and on Allah should the believers rely.
 

12 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

For example if someone is asking to see heaven or hell, is it really that bad to ask?

Those who believe and equipped with ilmul yaqeen, can see the heaven and hell. You just need to remove veils from your sight. 
 

12 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

If the Prophet can see the state of someone in their graves, well wouldn't it be helpful for the rest of us well to at least "see" something. 

 أَمْ لِلْإِنسَانِ مَا تَمَنَّى

Strange!!! Human bury his fellows throughout his lives, witnesses that this limited life will end one day and everyone will perish. Yet he strives for worldly gains and leave aside the guidance. There are people who if given comprehensive knowledge and shown every signs, would not believe

وَأَقْسَمُوا بِاللَّهِ جَهْدَ أَيْمَانِهِمْ لَئِنْ جَاءَتْهُمْ آيَةٌ لَيُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهَا ۚ قُلْ إِنَّمَا الْآيَاتُ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ ۖ وَمَا يُشْعِرُكُمْ أَنَّهَا إِذَا جَاءَتْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ {109}

[Shakir 6:109] And they swear by Allah with the strongest of their oaths, that if a sign came to them they would most certainly believe in it. Say: Signs are only with Allah; and what should make you know that when it comes they will not believe

قُلِ انْظُرُوا مَاذَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۚ وَمَا تُغْنِي الْآيَاتُ وَالنُّذُرُ عَنْ قَوْمٍ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ {101}

[Shakir 10:101] Say: Consider what is it that is in the heavens and the Earth; and signs and warners do not avail a people who would not believe.
 

12 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

So if I am asking for a miracle suddenly I'm being compared to a Kafir lol?

You would not have dared to ask this if you have kept in mind few verses of Qur'an. And as shared with you, your demands are quite similar to Kafirs, 

[Shahrukh K]

On 4/28/2019 at 1:00 AM, khamosh21 said:

May Allah forgive me for the following, but these thoughts and questions have been creating many difficulties for me...

Why give humans the ability to choose if these choices will lead to some of their destruction? None of these indicate that there is love, mercy etc involved when considering the final outcome of some human beings. A God which could conjure hell as a consequence for the actions of His very own creations is a nonsensical idea.

Imagine this scenario. Your loved one is sick and is taken to the hospital. The doctor has the cure in his hands… without this medicine your loved one will surely perish. Yet the Doctor withholds the medicine. Why you plead? He says your loved one did this to them selves. They should have eaten the medicines I gave them before. They should not have eaten unhealthy foods. They should have exercised. Did their intelligence not guide them? Did they not heed my advice and of those that are healthy around them or of those that perished before them? Sorry today they will have to account for what they did, today they will not be given a cure. Please tell me what you think of this doctor?

Is it not the same with God? He has the cure yet He allows so many to perish and suffer, not only in this world, but so many more for eternity. Please may Allah forgive me, but not to be harsh, is it a big feat if the Prophet or the Imam do not sin? Are they not able to see the reality behind the actions and have knowledge of the unseen?… would not the same apply to me, if tomorrow I see fire instead of the pleasure of sin, I would of course avoid it. Why do I have to rely on the account of 1400 year old men, why not just give me the cure directly?

Your concept of Allah is wrong.

Your concept of choice (freewill) is wrong.

Your concept  about yourSelf is wrong.

Your concept  about religion is wrong.

Your concept about life is wrong.

Your concept about creation is wrong.

That is the reason why you are asking this question.

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Raheel Yunus

[eThErEaL]

7 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

The biggest problem in my view is that the purpose of creation in line with the attributes just do not reconcile. Here is what we have been told about the purpose of creation:

 

Quote

 

-created for worship of Allah

 

-created to recognize and attain marifat of Allah

 

-sent to Earth to become a Khalifa

 

-created life and death to see who is best in deeds

 

-eventual end will be in Heaven or Hell

 

-Hadis Qudsi: I was a hidden treasure and I wished to be known

I would add another important purpose— it happens to be the most important of all:  

God “created” us to be happy, to enjoy and celebrate.  

Quote

Right? So I don’t get why any of these really matter? What happened to God that at some point in “no time” (how does this make sense?) decided He wanted to be known. What made Him decided He wanted to be known… I mean what exactly changed in Allah’s “life” or whatever He has that He decided this is a good time to do the following experiment….

His Act is Perfect.  And Because His Act is Perfect it has no beginning and no end.  His Act is eternal.  He didn’t “decide” to create, because Even His knowledge of creation is eternal (He didn’t “begin” to know creation).  Nevertheless, we are in time.  

God’s knowledge of the creation is eternal.  Eternal does not mean everlasting duration or beginning-less duration (as many people mistakenly think).  Eternal means no duration at all, no change, no before, no after, no beginning and no end. Eternal means timeless presence.  

The reality of this creation is not the way we perceive it to be (I.e. something with a beginning and an end or something that has duration), the reality of this creation is the way God knows His creation to be, and He knows His creation in an eternal way, with no beginning and no end.  In fact, when He sees creation He does not see anything other than Himsef.  This is because the creation is nothing but His names and attributes, and His names and attributes are one with His Essence.  

 

Quote

He decided He’s going to create infinite angels, dinosaurs, a single tiny speck of a dust of a planet where life will begin with betrayal and murder after 15 billion years of waiting, and all of this being done for the sake of 5 perfect reflections that He made of Himself… who will mostly get murdered in cold blood when they are born in humanly form…. then He placed psychotic idol worshipping people who would sacrifice their own people to please their Gods, so He sent Prophets after Prophets that were mostly failures and God wiped those people out violently, placed them in burning dark fire forever, because, after all His creation was stealing and cheating and murdering etc… and people wouldn’t listen to His perfect Messengers that He gave Knowledge and Wisdom to… should I go on… this is absurd…

 

It is absurd if you look at history in that way. 

But why look at history in that way?  Where do you get your history from in any case?  

Only the modern world sees History in this way.  But look at how ancient civilizations viewed world history.  All ancient civilizations and all of our religions see that mankind is not progressing or evolving, but rather mankind is devolving.  Modern man has mistaken technological progression for human progression.  

The myth of progress is but in the minds of modern man, and this is precisely one of the reasons he is not so evolved as those before him.  This is a long topic of discussion and I cannot do justice to this in just one post.  But I would encourage you to read up on this.  Please read up the works of Rene Geunon with regard to this topic.  

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do His attributes include pain and suffering and hell fire?

Yes.  God is Majestic, Just, Avenger etc...

So it does include such attributes.  

Nevertheless,

God’s mercy precedes His wrath:

but He is wrathful!  But He is wrathful out of mercy.  

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Is it necessary that some amount suffer infinitely so that others can become Prophets and Allah’s friends for eternity? Why couldn’t every human being born be a Prophet if Allah wanted to be KNOWN? If Allah wanted to give His Mercy to everyone, then why all the crazy obstacles and all of the above and more…

One of the necessary qualifications for being a Prophet is to be thankful and grateful during times of ease and hardship or during times of pleasure and suffering.  Why am I not a Prophet?  One of the reasons is Precisely because I view God’s creation negatively and I complain a lot, I am not able to see and appreciate and be grateful for God’s gifts which constantly surround me.  I focus in on the miserable things  and then I blame God for being miserable.  

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Lastly, given that I have a choice, I should have a choice to obliterate my existence and wipe myself from time completely and not be born.

You you do have that choice!  Because God is your true nature.  If you realize your true nature which is available to you right here and right now then you will have successfully obliterated the person you think you are that was born and will die, that suffers and received pleasure.  You will Will be in total peace and bliss.  

 

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Or I should have a choice to not worship Allah and then not have to suffer dire consequences… this is just blackmail and forceful worship, what good is it? What difference does it make to God if I don’t worship Him… nothing… so why make me suffer brother, if it makes no difference, then just obliterate my existence forever… why not just give me open reign on a universe and let me do whatever I want, while the rest of the universe goes on? This whole story of mankind makes zero sense considering there is an infinitely powerful Creator behind it…

Exactly brother!  Why suffer?  Just obliterate your existence.  This is what worship is all about.  It is about simply realizing God (your true Self) that always IS and has never not been.  Worshipping is enjoying this blissful state.  

 

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I’m just saying that out of all the routes and possible infinite designs that Allah could have chosen for His creation, why keep the inifinite hell, suffering, pain etc as part of this universe and design? Was Allah forced or limited to making this universe this way…?

It is because we inflict it upon ourselves.  It is entirely our choice.  People who suffer love to suffer.  

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Lastly... Creator doesn’t care really what happens…

I totally agree with this.  Excuse my language but: God doesn’t give a damn about our likes and dislikes.  He just does what is best for everyone.  

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they just keep messing with us and sending different programs (Prophets) to see how we’ll react and then “delete” us when we are no longer useful to the simulation.  Think about it… can Allah actually feel anything? Does He feel pain or sadness? Happiness? Can He relate to me or you and our lives? Can He relate to eating to stay alive everyday? Or anything that we do on a daily basis to survive?

 

This is why you are suffering.  Because you don’t know who you are and who God is.

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by eThErEaL

[Guest YaFatima]

Salam

miracles can be sought so ask God to make you meet Imam and ask Him to show you miracles.

[khamosh21]

13 hours ago, Raheel Yunus said:

Your concept of Allah is wrong.

Your concept of choice (freewill) is wrong.

Your concept  about yourSelf is wrong.

Your concept  about religion is wrong.

Your concept about life is wrong.

Your concept about creation is wrong.

That is the reason why you are asking this question.

 

Sincerely hope.and praying to be wrong, please pray for me.

On a side note, asking questions to remove doubts and difficulties does not make one "wrong". I badly want to be sincere and honest in my worship, I can't continue to "fake it till I make it". 

Edited April 30, 2019 by khamosh21

[eThErEaL]

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

Sincerely hope.and praying to be wrong, please pray for me.

On a side note, asking questions to remove doubts and difficulties does not make one "wrong". I badly want to be sincere and honest in my worship, I can't continue to "fake it till I make it". 

Khamosh,

Believing that you really exist is the problem.  The theological issue you have comes about because you believe that you really exist.  This is why nothing makes sense theologically when you assume that you really exist.  Hence all of your questions.  All would have been fine, by your own admission, if only God existed and you and the world never existed. Yes?  

I totally agree, and God also agrees, and the true Islamic religion also agrees.  The idea that God really created you and that He really gave you and the world existence is an idea that belongs to a false religion, a fabricated one, a made-up or an invented one.  The true religion of God is trying to save you from this made-up religion you believe in.  It is so far away from this false religion that you might even be tempted to not call it a religion.  The real religion is so natural, so organic, and very universal.  The true religion says that you don’t really exist and that if you think you do and if you believe in a God that really created you then It is only because you have been indoctrinated to believe in such nonesense and that you are willingly, by bad habit, choosing to dwell in this illusory belief.  The true religion would like you to throw away your false ideas (these false ideas are called gods).  The true religion would like to remind you that you are God (in reality - that your true Self is in fact God) that you were not born and that you will not die and that you are not your body or some imaginary soul or some person with feelings.  Doing this is called “worship”.  The act of worshipping entails that you get rid of your false and imaginary sense of self and replace it with the real eternal Self.

Edited April 30, 2019 by eThErEaL

[layman]

@khamosh21

5 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Sincerely hope.and praying to be wrong, please pray for me.

On a side note, asking questions to remove doubts and difficulties does not make one "wrong". I badly want to be sincere and honest in my worship, I can't continue to "fake it till I make it". 

Why not just keep it simple.  Remove the "why" questions in the mind temporarily.

I usually get answer first then only I put the why.

For example.  When we were little, we always hear that people say don't touch a fire, it will burn the skin.  Wait until you have an event that you accidentally or purposely touch a fire.  Then start to repeat the question "why we don't touch a fire?".  At this time around, putting up the question "why we don't touch a fire" makes sense.  By witnessing the effect of fire on our personal skin, remove the doubt about why people warned us about it.

In Islam, witnessing is important and is the first step in understanding Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Islam . It is an experiment where we first see and feel the glory of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Then the why questions will be answered.

Even to be Muslim we have to testify... I bear witness that we say in shahadat.  Bear witness first, then only we can be sincere Muslim.

There was one simple Arab came to see Rasulullah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and asked "Teach me a simple doa".  Rasul (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says "say to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى): You are my Rabb and I am you slave"...Anta Rabbi, anna abdikka.

Try to practice this doa and ponder...

The moment you absorbed and feel the Rabb, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will allow you to witness His Glory.  At that moment all your WHY questions are automatically answered.  You will know why there was Hussain and why there was Yazeed, why there are haq and bathil, hell and heavan.

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by layman

[Simon the Canaanite]

On 4/27/2019 at 9:30 PM, khamosh21 said:

May Allah forgive me for the following, but these thoughts and questions have been creating many difficulties for me...

Why give humans the ability to choose if these choices will lead to some of their destruction? None of these indicate that there is love, mercy etc involved when considering the final outcome of some human beings. A God which could conjure hell as a consequence for the actions of His very own creations is a nonsensical idea.

Imagine this scenario. Your loved one is sick and is taken to the hospital. The doctor has the cure in his hands… without this medicine your loved one will surely perish. Yet the Doctor withholds the medicine. Why you plead? He says your loved one did this to them selves. They should have eaten the medicines I gave them before. They should not have eaten unhealthy foods. They should have exercised. Did their intelligence not guide them? Did they not heed my advice and of those that are healthy around them or of those that perished before them? Sorry today they will have to account for what they did, today they will not be given a cure. Please tell me what you think of this doctor?

Is it not the same with God? He has the cure yet He allows so many to perish and suffer, not only in this world, but so many more for eternity. Please may Allah forgive me, but not to be harsh, is it a big feat if the Prophet or the Imam do not sin? Are they not able to see the reality behind the actions and have knowledge of the unseen?… would not the same apply to me, if tomorrow I see fire instead of the pleasure of sin, I would of course avoid it. Why do I have to rely on the account of 1400 year old men, why not just give me the cure directly?

Hello.

Perhaps, these debates will help you.

Also, take a look at this, whenever you have time:

 

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

5 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

On a side note, asking questions to remove doubts and difficulties does not make one "wrong".

We really need to put a serious check on what we are asking. Because the One from whom we are asking is "Qadir-e-Mutlaq", He is capable of fulfilling our askings. Asking anything wrong could become a serious trouble. And here is the example from Qur'an:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 200:

فَإِذَا قَضَيْتُم مَّنَاسِكَكُمْ فَاذْكُرُوا اللَّهَ كَذِكْرِكُمْ آبَاءَكُمْ أَوْ أَشَدَّ ذِكْرًا فَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَقُولُ رَبَّنَا آتِنَا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَمَا لَهُ فِي الْآخِرَةِ مِنْ خَلَاقٍ

So when you have performed your devotions, then laud Allah as you lauded your fathers, rather a greater lauding. But there are some people who say, Our Lord! give us in the world, and they shall have no resting place. (English - Shakir) 

21 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Forget that brother, is it so unfair to ask to see someone like them, or an ask Arif to show me his ability? If I don't have it, can I not to ask to see it in someone else?

It is not unfair to ask that but it do show that you're unaware of basics. There are maratib, darajat in place and there is divine will. 

Once you successfully enforce His desires on yourself to the extent that your own desires becomes extinct and whayever left is His desires, you will feel something new in yourself. Everything would start reflecting the one & only truth.

May Almighty Lord guide us all, pour patience upon us and grant us the steadfastness.

[Guest YaJaffar]

The Qur'an reveals asking the family of the reminder in two places.   One is concerning in context of Prophet having the role of clarifying what is revealed and manifesting it, which shows the role of the family of the reminder in doing that. Another, in Suratal Anbiya, is primarily in context of the signs/miracles sought of Prophets and therefore ask the family of the reminder in that context while includes asking them regrading everything in religion, also shows they have the right to ask regarding miracles and seek clarification and certainty for them.

The verse as addressed to the Prophet, means, Oh Prophet say sake of argument you or others were ignorant regarding a matter in religion, and didn't know the truth or were doubting, you would have to seek the proof and seek certainty in insights and knowledge from the family of the reminder.

This is similar in verses say if the Prophet invented the Qur'an, still, God if he wishes could verify the truth through his words like Jesus and previous Prophets, so, it's not anything personal to Muhammad and that is why it says else where "for they (in fact) do not deny you but the unjust deny the signs of God".

There is always a guide who can provide miracles, that is why Qur'an says "The disbelievers ask why not a sign revealed to him, say you are only a warner and for every people there is a guide".

At the same time, the Qur'an shows the guide and proof can become hidden from the people to some degree or greater degree and says "the disbelievers ask why not a sign revealed to him, say the hiding is for God, so wait, we too are those who await", yet other places shows that God guides who turns to him as far as this goes.

Miracles never availed a person set on a mindset to disbelieve, but, it can bestow faith to sincere truth seekers.

If God is real or Qur'an is true, then God will reveal you miracles if you seek them sincerely.  The guide will come to you and show you miracles.

Many Shiites don't really believe in Ghayba and so are making you despair of God's mercy through the help of the Imam.

 

You should know that miracles in the past are not shown so they only apply to the past. They are show so that we know they are going to happen again.

As for the future, it will be miracles to the whole world, and if the world rejects the guide then, they will be destroyed and God will save the pious believers at that point.

But for now, while, it's veiled, a simple Du'a for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and we have du'a arifini nafsik that calls for this,  the Imam will be shown to you, and manifest in proofs, as long as you understand the command and soul of the Imam can only be created by God, you will be safe.

If your mind start running wild and you think he evil sorcerer, at this point, things will get intensely tough.

Just do a du'a to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and mentally prepare yourself to be shown the guide and he will prove himself to you.

[Guest YaReda]

God didn't reveal such miracles in the past, so we bury them in the past, but to seek them from the guides who are the proofs such miracles prove, and they prove God and who he is and such spirit can only be revealed and created and sustained by God directly guiding and creating and providing sustenance and power.

Please stop listening to people, and read Qur'an and seek that it encourages to seek such miracles but warns and emphasizes not to accuse those who provide them to be lying or possessed by demon entities sorcerers.

Mentally prepare yourself and ask God to show you the guide and pledge to God you will hear and obey, and everything will be well. Break the pledge and accuse the guide of sorcery, and you will be of the lowest of the low.

[khamosh21]

On 4/30/2019 at 3:58 PM, eThErEaL said:

Khamosh,

Believing that you really exist is the problem.  The theological issue you have comes about because you believe that you really exist.  This is why nothing makes sense theologically when you assume that you really exist.  Hence all of your questions.  All would have been fine, by your own admission, if only God existed and you and the world never existed. Yes?  

I totally agree, and God also agrees, and the true Islamic religion also agrees.  The idea that God really created you and that He really gave you and the world existence is an idea that belongs to a false religion, a fabricated one, a made-up or an invented one.  The true religion of God is trying to save you from this made-up religion you believe in.  It is so far away from this false religion that you might even be tempted to not call it a religion.  The real religion is so natural, so organic, and very universal.  The true religion says that you don’t really exist and that if you think you do and if you believe in a God that really created you then It is only because you have been indoctrinated to believe in such nonesense and that you are willingly, by bad habit, choosing to dwell in this illusory belief.  The true religion would like you to throw away your false ideas (these false ideas are called gods).  The true religion would like to remind you that you are God (in reality - that your true Self is in fact God) that you were not born and that you will not die and that you are not your body or some imaginary soul or some person with feelings.  Doing this is called “worship”.  The act of worshipping entails that you get rid of your false and imaginary sense of self and replace it with the real eternal Self.

For the first paragraph, I agree yes. For the 2nd, sorry brother you lost me lol. Not sure how if it's helping or not... can you please explain the philosophy of following things within the above framework:

1. Hell (with emphasis on eternity)... I remember reading your old posts where you argue where it may not be eternal, however for the sake of argument lets say it is eternal as it's literally mentioned in the Qur'an and Duas that it is eternal

2. reason for having a false self to begin with

3. What's God getting out of this... and/or what is it all supposed to mean ultimately and why is it happening....

[khamosh21]

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your asking the wrong questions

when a person is living in a prison his whole life , and never makes an attempt to move out of it despite countless opportunities to do so, because he has gotten "used" to the environment despite that he doesnt know what is outside (gardens, rivers, huge free lands) , he has accepted this prison life, and asks "why do I need to go outside? what could be outside that could possibly be better than this, and why am I punished if I stay here" how would you look at this person?

well there is another layer to this problem, the prison he is seeing is not the whole picture, he is actually not made for that prison, but never decides to put enough faith in himself to step outside because he thinks its just much easier to continue to live like this, despite that actually the prison he is witnessing is not the whole picture, it is causing even further pains and miseries that the person attributes to something else , and hence developing a wrong idea or wrong concept in their mind about the actual reality that is and his purpose in it

Salaam brother, it's nice to see and hear from you... been a while since I've been on ShiaChat, how do you split up parts of someone's quotes, forgotten how to do that...

I feel there needs to be a prequel to this analogy, why is there a prison to begin with, and who placed me here, and why did they place me here? what was my crime to be put in a prison?

[Ashvazdanghe]

7 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

The true religion would like to remind you that you are God (in reality - that your true Self is in fact God) that you were not born and that you will not die and that you are not your body or some imaginary soul or some person with feelings.  Doing this is called “worship”.  The act of worshipping entails that you get rid of your false and imaginary sense of self and replace it with the real eternal Self.

this is a mormon or Sufi idea & doesn't relate to true religion of Islam anyway Urafa say we can reach to a level that we loose ourselves completely  in Allah but we don't become a God if anyones believes that everyone can becomes a God it's polytheism that is against Islam.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Ashvazdanghe

[eThErEaL]

On 4/30/2019 at 11:51 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

this is a mormon or Sufi idea & doesn't relate to true religion of Islam anyway Urafa say we can reach to a level that we loose ourselves completely  in Allah but we don't become a God if anyones believes that everyone can becomes a God it's polytheism that is against Islam.

I am not sure what you are talking about. God doesn't exist.  Unless you mean by God whatever is real.  Sufi, Shia and Momon or whatever you said..they are ALL false ideas.  

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 5/1/2019 at 1:50 AM, eThErEaL said:

I am not sure what you are talking about. God doesn't exist.  Unless you mean by God whatever is real.  Sufi, Shia and Momon or whatever you said..they are ALL false ideas.  

I said Allah/God exists but no one becomes a God in Urafa viewpoint the maximum point is complete forgetting yourself and becoming selfless & absorbing to him

[eThErEaL]

On 5/1/2019 at 2:16 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

I said Allah/God exists but no one becomes a God in Urafa viewpoint the maximum point is complete forgetting yourself and becoming selfless & absorbing to him

I don't think I am talking about becoming God.  that would be very blasphemous.  What made you think I was saying that?