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In the Name of God بسم الله

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41 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

@iCenozoic

I've read about all those examples and more. I do understand them. Perhaps there are explanation we aren't truly aware of. I mean there was one point 400 years ago where the majority of the West believed the Earth was flat. So who knows.

Anyway it's hard for me to reconcile the idea that as a Muslim, having a Prophet whose light was created before other creations, that that same light would be instilled in the descendants of animals. Why couldn't Adam ((عليه السلام)) be created the same way Jesus ((عليه السلام)) was? Why does Islam tell us to reject whatever animal instincts we have and remain above that? It would hardly make sense that God caused humans to come forth from the very same animals we are to be different from. Etc. Etc. That's why macroevolution inclusive of humans is not something I can swallow as it appears contradictory to Islam.

As for the changes in humans over the millennia, it doesn't seem to extend past microevolution which I don't really have a problem understanding.

Also, just a side note, isn't interesting that in a way some of the examples you mentioned could be perceived as devolving as opposed to being the most evolved. If we are the culmination of evolution, should we not be rid of significant disadvantages of which our ancestors had the 'counter' advantage?

Yea I mean, there are questions that we all have to examine and ponder over. If it were so easy for all of us to accept the idea of primitive origins, we wouldn't all be having this conversation now. And that's kind of up to each individual, to determine how to respond.

People can choose to believe in some kind of barrier between micro evolution and macro. But, as far as anyone is aware, no such barrier exists. Really, we aren't even able to define the difference between micro and macro evolution, because there is no such thing, aside from the factor of time. Which of course never stops. Some have suggested that speciation is the cutoff point between micro and macro evolution. But then speciation was observed. Then macro evolution became a change in some sort of arbitrary "kind" with logical inconsistencies. It's like trying to define the difference between a light gray and a slightly lighter gray.

Regarding the idea of devolving, although I have a tail bone, goosebumps, I had a hernia in the past, many of us have back issues, I had wisdom teeth that I needed to have removed because they didn't fit in my head...regardless of these complications, this isn't hurting my ability to procreate. Which is what it all comes down to.

Evolution often works with what is already available. For example, birds didn't just appear. They worked off of theropods with bird features, like feathers. People's arms and legs don't just appear, rather bones are gradually changed over time into arms and legs. And in that use of historical morphology, we inevitably retain qualities of life from the past. Kind of like scars. We have scars from our past. But goosebumps don't hurt my ability to survive, even though they are seemingly useless now. And with that, these attributes continue through the ages. Passed on to children.

Ultimately, I think people just have to go where the evidence points. Sometimes it's difficult to accept things that run contrary to preconceived notions. Actually it's always difficult. But it is what it is. The other day someone corrected me on something. I was offended and hurt. But then I said, you know what, that person is factually correct, and acknowledging that just makes me better informed. And I swallowed my pride and moved on with life. 

People are prideful, they don't want to believe that they once were primitive. Dirty, uneducated, maybe barbaric. Unclean. These are common qualities we associate with other animals. We don't even call ourselves animals, we don't even call ourselves apes or mammals. But technically we are all of the above. And we certainly don't want to believe that our Prophets were animals either. Because they were perfect. How dare anyone suggest that we descended from animals that lived in the dirt?

It's pride. Which results in denial. 

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On 4/29/2019 at 7:36 AM, iCenozoic said:

Yea I mean, there are questions that we all have to examine and ponder over. If it were so easy for all of us to accept the idea of primitive origins, we wouldn't all be having this conversation now. And that's kind of up to each individual, to determine how to respond.

People can choose to believe in some kind of barrier between micro evolution and macro. But, as far as anyone is aware, no such barrier exists. Really, we aren't even able to define the difference between micro and macro evolution, because there is no such thing, aside from the factor of time. Which of course never stops. Some have suggested that speciation is the cutoff point between micro and macro evolution. But then speciation was observed. Then macro evolution became a change in some sort of arbitrary "kind" with logical inconsistencies. It's like trying to define the difference between a light gray and a slightly lighter gray.

Regarding the idea of devolving, although I have a tail bone, goosebumps, I had a hernia in the past, many of us have back issues, I had wisdom teeth that I needed to have removed because they didn't fit in my head...regardless of these complications, this isn't hurting my ability to procreate. Which is what it all comes down to.

Evolution often works with what is already available. For example, birds didn't just appear. They worked off of theropods with bird features, like feathers. People's arms and legs don't just appear, rather bones are gradually changed over time into arms and legs. And in that use of historical morphology, we inevitably retain qualities of life from the past. Kind of like scars. We have scars from our past. But goosebumps don't hurt my ability to survive, even though they are seemingly useless now. And with that, these attributes continue through the ages. Passed on to children.

Ultimately, I think people just have to go where the evidence points. Sometimes it's difficult to accept things that run contrary to preconceived notions. Actually it's always difficult. But it is what it is. The other day someone corrected me on something. I was offended and hurt. But then I said, you know what, that person is factually correct, and acknowledging that just makes me better informed. And I swallowed my pride and moved on with life. 

People are prideful, they don't want to believe that they once were primitive. Dirty, uneducated, maybe barbaric. Unclean. These are common qualities we associate with other animals. We don't even call ourselves animals, we don't even call ourselves apes or mammals. But technically we are all of the above. And we certainly don't want to believe that our Prophets were animals either. Because they were perfect. How dare anyone suggest that we descended from animals that lived in the dirt?

It's pride. Which results in denial. 

Evolution is just a theory, a theory that is nice and fun bedtime story, and which always when faced with questions about its mechanism is answered with tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, millions and billions of years ago

So its easy to sell the idea, but really if we dealt with any other science this way of leaving things in the unknown and stretching answers out to something which really is inadvertently saying "we don’t know" but saying it in a way which looks like an ends all argument tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee , then we would have no definite science that can be used pratically

There is a TONNE of problems and questions which evolution and even people who study this theory , fail to answer , literally tonnes of problems, but they still choose to believe in evolution theory cause they don’t like the alternative , so basically their belief in it is based on faith

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On 4/28/2019 at 5:36 PM, iCenozoic said:

And we certainly don't want to believe that our Prophets were animals either. Because they were perfect. How dare anyone suggest that we descended from animals that lived in the dirt?

Indeed =P but also pride aside, it does not make logical sense to me that imperfect creatures would culminate into a perfect being. Whereas the perfect being can degrade themselves to imperfect beings.

On 4/28/2019 at 5:36 PM, iCenozoic said:

 It's pride. Which results in denial. 

True, when it's unfounded. And in most cases, this would apply.

However there is no denial the human species is the only intelligent species on the entire Earth. Pride or not, that is factual. To not take pride in being different to a pig is tantamount to stripping one's own dignity and intellect away.

Anyway steering it away from the philosophical ideas, it comes down to the evidence as you stated, therein lies the problem itself. Different people will value certain evidences more than others, like my example, spirit of Islam being against human evolution (In my humble opinion) versus the theory of evolution suggesting otherwise. For me, the former (for now as I understand it) holds more value than the latter.

We shall see if that changes as I learn more.

 

On 4/28/2019 at 5:36 PM, iCenozoic said:

 Regarding the idea of devolving, although I have a tail bone, goosebumps, I had a hernia in the past, many of us have back issues, I had wisdom teeth that I needed to have removed because they didn't fit in my head...regardless of these complications, this isn't hurting my ability to procreate. Which is what it all comes down to.

 

Just a technical point here, I'd disagree with some of these points. Sure goosebumps, tail bone, etc. isn't averse to our existence. But for example hernia is, because if everyone had hernias and there was no treatment for it, and it gets incarcerated, we would eventually over a very long period of time (as evolution suggests) would die off. Besides, these are minor examples, I am sure there are more 'significant' examples that more clearly affect the ability to survive/procreate, yet these traits are alive and kicking despite seemingly being at the peak of "macroevolution".

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On 4/27/2019 at 3:42 PM, khamosh21 said:

I don't know if anyone can provide any evidence other than the words in books which can show us Adam and Hawa magically appeared on Earth or on some spaceship.

When you go to sleep, don’t you magically appear in different places?  

Well, the entire world is imaginary.  No need to create a distinction between the world when you are awake and the world when you sleep.

The world is magical (all of it)... even if the dreamer doesn’t believe so.  

Edited by eThErEaL

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

When you go to sleep, don’t you magically appear in different places?  

Well, the entire world is imaginary.  No need to create a distinction between the world when you are awake and the world when you sleep.

The world is magical (all of it)... even if the dreamer doesn’t believe so.  

 the world is an AI computer generated reality.

should I believe anything anyone says even if it sounds all spiritual and nice?

prove it, otherwise the only thing imaginary is your intelligence 

*I do not believe in my first sentence, just making a point.

Edited by khamosh21

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1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

 the world is an AI computer generated reality.

should I believe anything anyone says even if it sounds all spiritual and nice?

prove it, otherwise the only thing imaginary is your intelligence 

*I do not believe in my first sentence, just making a point.

You don't have to believe what anyone says...including these words 

 

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10 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Indeed =P but also pride aside, it does not make logical sense to me that imperfect creatures would culminate into a perfect being. Whereas the perfect being can degrade themselves to imperfect beings.

True, when it's unfounded. And in most cases, this would apply.

However there is no denial the human species is the only intelligent species on the entire Earth. Pride or not, that is factual. To not take pride in being different to a pig is tantamount to stripping one's own dignity and intellect away.

Anyway steering it away from the philosophical ideas, it comes down to the evidence as you stated, therein lies the problem itself. Different people will value certain evidences more than others, like my example, spirit of Islam being against human evolution (In my humble opinion) versus the theory of evolution suggesting otherwise. For me, the former (for now as I understand it) holds more value than the latter.

We shall see if that changes as I learn more.

 

Just a technical point here, I'd disagree with some of these points. Sure goosebumps, tail bone, etc. isn't averse to our existence. But for example hernia is, because if everyone had hernias and there was no treatment for it, and it gets incarcerated, we would eventually over a very long period of time (as evolution suggests) would die off. Besides, these are minor examples, I am sure there are more 'significant' examples that more clearly affect the ability to survive/procreate, yet these traits are alive and kicking despite seemingly being at the peak of "macroevolution".

Seems like you half agree and half disagree. Some people can die from things. One thing to also examine are the frequencies of hernias, but also how long humanity has struggled with hernias. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3031184/

"An abdominal wall hernia is an abnormal protrusion of a peritoneal-lined sac through the musculo-aponeurotic covering of the abdomen. Abdominal wall hernias are common, classically taught to occur in at least 2% of men1 while statistics from the United States estimate 15 per 1000 population (1.5%).2 "

So you have a relatively low percentage of people experiencing hernias. Of course we breed faster and the detriments of hernias should also be compared to the values of walking upright (as bipedalism would be the driver of hernias). Bipedalism supports our large brain, so it's easy to understand why we would evolve to have hernias. Same with wisdom teeth, if we have a choice between bigger jaws and more teeth, or bone material from the jaw being redirected to our skull for a larger brain, I would take a smaller jaw that can't fit wisdom teeth, in favor of a larger brain, any day of the week.

For the second question, for how long have we experienced hernias? And the answer is that we have been since we have been walking upright, which would be less than a 4 million years. Which isn't a particularly long time. 

And with that, it's also a relatively recent issue, that affects less than 5% of us as opposed to something morphologically drastic that has been around for a hundred million years. And beyond this, the occurance of hernias has ultimately been for a cause that increases survivability (bipedalism). A species with large brains and hernias will out-compete a quadraped with a smaller brain (such as a lion that wants to eat us) as we see in the real world.

Also, not all hernias are life threatening.

"ANSWER: Abdominal hernias are common and not necessarily dangerous. But, a hernia doesn’t usually get better on its own. In rare circumstances, it can lead to life-threatening complications. Consequently, surgery is usually recommended for a hernia that’s painful or becoming larger." -mayoclinic.org

and further, not all hernias affect people before they have children. And so someone might have children, pass the genes, then later have a hernia after they've already passed the genes on.

so we have a small percentage of people experiencing hernias (5%), we have probable cause (values in bipedalism), not all hernias are immediately life threatening and not all hernias occur at young ages before having children.

Regarding wisdom teeth, goose bumps, hickups, glasses, tail bones, bad backs etc. Sounds like you don't have anything to say.

Why do you think we have all of the other qualities?

Some Evangelical Christians would say that we are "devolving" since the introduction of sin in the garden of Eden (the concept of original sin). But of course this isn't supported by evidence. I'm not sure if Muslims believe in original sin or not, I don't think Muslims typically do.

Edited by iCenozoic

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On 4/27/2019 at 4:16 PM, dragonxx said:

Not necessarily true.

Evidence from Qur'an and hadith I believe suggests that there were many 'humans' before our Adam ((عليه السلام)). 

I've heard of this, can you show examples?

What is the main view among ulema? I always thought Adam (عليه السلام) was first man. Humanity are referred to as Bani Adam collectively

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I would suggest to Brothers and sisters who are not familiar with the theory of evolution, as constructed by Darwin, do not post on this topic. We don't want to sound ignorant, like those Evangelical Christians who do silly things like propose that humans and dinosaurs walked the Earth at the same time, in order to attempt to rectify the Biblical account of creation with modern scientific evidence regarding the age of the Earth, and the different epochs which lasted for millions of years. 

For those who don't already know

1. The Qur'an states that the 'heavens and the Earth' were created in six stages or periods. It doesn't say God 'rested' on the Seventh Day, like the Bible says. It also doesn't give a time span for these stages or periods, like for example, the Bible does when it say in Genesis 'there was morning, and there was evening, a ____ day'. Morning and Evening presupposes rotations of a celestial body around a transverse axis and positioned in relation to a source of light that is fixed (I.e. a star). 

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً قَالُواْ أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاء وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ

  “When your Lord said to the angels, “I am placing on Earth a Khalifa.” they said, “Will You place in it someone who will make mischief in it and shed blood? While we continuously serve you and exalt your Glory.”God said, “I know what you do not know.”” Holy Qur'an 2:30. 

This verse implies that there were creatures on Earth before Adam who were similar to modern humans. Otherwise, how would the angels have known to make the observation 'Will you place in it someone who will make mischeif and shed blood'. How would they have known that unless they had observed this before God made this statement ? So this is one verse (amoung many) that proves that the view of Islam toward evolution is much more complex and nuanced than the modern Evangelical Christian view. Because, to most English speaking people, the only other view of evolution they ever hear, besides the secular scientific view, is the Evangelical view, they wrongly believe that Islam says the same on this topic. It doesn't. 

 

As for Darwin's view, his view that species adapt and change in response to changes in their environment, that can be proven in a petri dish, and Darwin himself proved it with his observations regarding the Galapagos finches. At the same time, his assertion that 'all being evolved from a single primordial being' is not proven, nor is the assertion that our distant ancestors were apes. For those who believe in God, and believe that God created everything that exists, it is somewhat irrelevant whether God created everything through an evolutionary process from one primordial being, or created each species separately. Even if, say for example at some point in time, it is proven that our distant ancestors were apes, it doesn't change the fact that apes (and their predecessors) were created by God, and we were created by God(s.w.a) via the process of evolution. I, for one, would be perfectly willing to accept that(although this hasn't been proven). But to assert that because our ancestors are apes, we are the same as apes, that is obviously false as there are many things that humans posses, mainly having to do with the intellect, that apes don't have. Islam teaches that what distinguished Adam from other created beings was his intellect ('and God taught Adam the names, all of them') which allowed him (and his children, I.e. us) to transcend his physical nature and instinct to his benefit (and the benefit of his children) and sometimes to his detriment, in the case of his disobedience to God(s.w.a). 

 

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On 5/5/2019 at 7:24 AM, iCenozoic said:

Seems like you half agree and half disagree.

That pretty much sums me up. I draw the line at human beings, and that is because I prioritize the Qur'an over human conjecture. I do believe proven science is always in-line with religion. My thought process is simple (being a layman when it comes to the theory of evolution); when evolution includes humans in the macro process, this is in contradiction to what I believe to be a truth, and so I am convinced in the future there will be clear scientific evidence that throws the theory out the window. Such events have happened in the past with other theories, no reason this should be any different.

Your points about hernia are fair.

On 5/5/2019 at 7:24 AM, iCenozoic said:

 Why do you think we have all of the other qualities?

 

Honestly, no clue. That does not mean evolution being the only potential explanation that it is the correct explanation.

On 5/5/2019 at 7:24 AM, iCenozoic said:

I'm not sure if Muslims believe in original sin or not, I don't think Muslims typically do.

Islam certainly doesn't preach original sin, so you are right in thinking Muslims don't typically believe in it.

 

On 5/5/2019 at 7:57 AM, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

I've heard of this, can you show examples?

What is the main view among ulema? I always thought Adam (عليه السلام) was first man. Humanity are referred to as Bani Adam collectively

I've read the hadiths in passing, I'll try and go back and find them but it's been very busy for me recently.

The main view as far as I understand, there were 1000s of Adams before our Adam, and that each 'humanity' was assigned 10,000 years on Earth. Abu Hadi provided some of the reasoning about there being humanoid creatures before us from Quranic verses above.

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On 5/5/2019 at 10:59 AM, Abu Hadi said:

For those who believe in God, and believe that God created everything that exists, it is somewhat irrelevant whether God created everything through an evolutionary process from one primordial being, or created each species separately. Even if, say for example at some point in time, it is proven that our distant ancestors were apes, it doesn't change the fact that apes (and their predecessors) were created by God, and we were created by God(s.w.a) via the process of evolution.

Disagree if you are including humans being a part of that evolutionary process.

It is very relevant whether or not Adam had apes for parents or not.

The story of Jesus ((عليه السلام)) makes it abundantly clear that Adam ((عليه السلام)) could not have had apes for parents.

 

But just to add some thoughts I think are interesting,

How is it just that God commands us to be unlike animals yet that is exactly what we are? Humans, jinn, animals; all three are different and distinct. Which raises a question for us Muslims, where do Jinn fall into the evolutionary process?

And the light of the Prophet (pbuhf) and Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)), their light was created before any of these creations, how can we say that such purity and perfection arose from the impurity and imperfections of a haywan (animal)? Just as ludicrous as a chaotic explosion resulting in the harmonious arrangement of the universe.

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Just to clarify the mainstream perspective of Islam on Darwinian evolution:

Quote

Despite not being entirely explicit, the apparent meanings of the verses dealing with the creation of Adam ((عليه السلام).) mostly tend to revolve around the concept of independent creation; but with regards to the other living beings, the Noble Qur’an remains silent.5

https://www.al-Islam.org/180-questions-about-Islam-vol-2-various-issues-makarim-shirazi/17-theory-evolution-species

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Evolution is not compatible with Islam. If it was everyone would accept it like the Qur'an and the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)... 

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