Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
MartyS

Is this not the Judgment of God?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Warm greetings!

I have pondered the question, How does Jesus save us? I believe His death on the cross paid the penalty for my sins, which cancelled my debt to God, makes me forgiven, sets me free. But there is more. He said of Himself...

"I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment-what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me." - John 12:46-50

Peace and blessings!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, MartyS said:

I believe His death on the cross paid the penalty for my sins, which cancelled my debt to God, makes me forgiven, sets me free. 

The problem with this, is there is no longer any incentive or deterrence against sinning.

It's as if one has a pre-paid ticket to heaven, and no matter what ill, sickening, vile, debaucherous evils mankind is capable of - as we see each day....it is all good, because Jesus has died for our sins of the past, our current wrong doing and any we carry out in future.

Christianity unlike Judaism and Islam is arguably anarchic, there is no law as such, thanks to Paul.

One can literally do as they please, they do not even have to pray. Just accept Jesus dying for their sins.

It goes against the Old Testament of not passing the buck onto others or being answerable for the actions of others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, MartyS said:

"I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment-what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me." - John 12:46-50

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. 

(5:116)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

The problem with this, is there is no longer any incentive or deterrence against sinning.

It's as if one has a pre-paid ticket to heaven, and no matter what ill, sickening, vile, debaucherous evils mankind is capable of - as we see each day....it is all good, because Jesus has died for our sins of the past, our current wrong doing and any we carry out in future.

Christianity unlike Judaism and Islam is arguably anarchic, there is no law as such, thanks to Paul.

One can literally do as they please, they do not even have to pray. Just accept Jesus dying for their sins.

It goes against the Old Testament of not passing the buck onto others or being answerable for the actions of others.

Propaganda of the Deed,

Thank you. This is a very good argument. But the other side of salvation by grace and not by works is that once we have been forgiven we now have God's seed, His Spirit living within us and we do not want to sin any longer. And for the first time in our lives, we have the strength of God to resist the temptations of the world, the enemy, and our flesh to sin.

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. - 1 John 3:4-10

Many blessings,

Marty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. 

(5:116)

Thank you, PoD. I have never been taught that Jesus claimed Mary was diety. I agree that would be shirk to give any lesser person equal status with God. We do not believe there are three Gods. When we speak about the Trinity, we are looking at the character of God: God the Creator, God the Redeemer, and God the Counselor.

18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on Earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." - Matthew 28:18-20

Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? - John 14:9

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. - John 14:16-17

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. - John 16:13

Blessings and peace to you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

The problem with this, is there is no longer any incentive or deterrence against sinning.

It's as if one has a pre-paid ticket to heaven, and no matter what ill, sickening, vile, debaucherous evils mankind is capable of - as we see each day....it is all good, because Jesus has died for our sins of the past, our current wrong doing and any we carry out in future.

Christianity unlike Judaism and Islam is arguably anarchic, there is no law as such, thanks to Paul.

One can literally do as they please, they do not even have to pray. Just accept Jesus dying for their sins.

It goes against the Old Testament of not passing the buck onto others or being answerable for the actions of others.

Yes, some "Christians" believe that but that is not the view of mainstream Christians. Catholics believe one must do various deeds and penance to go to heaven. Many Protestants, especially those who are Methodist or Pentecostal, believe that sinning can cut you off from the grace of God and send you to hell (unless you sincerely repent of that sin and do the right things again). Calvinists, who believe in predestination, say that a truly redeemed person will not go on sinning with impunity. There are some fringe groups, especially among the fundamentalists, that say that one can just say a prayer to Jesus and he will give them a free ticket to heaven while they can go on sinning without any eternal consequences. But then again, those are minority in Christianity. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

The problem with this, is there is no longer any incentive or deterrence against sinning.

It's as if one has a pre-paid ticket to heaven, and no matter what ill, sickening, vile, debaucherous evils mankind is capable of - as we see each day....it is all good, because Jesus has died for our sins of the past, our current wrong doing and any we carry out in future.

Christianity unlike Judaism and Islam is arguably anarchic, there is no law as such, thanks to Paul. 

One can literally do as they please, they do not even have to pray. Just accept Jesus dying for their sins.

It goes against the Old Testament of not passing the buck onto others or being answerable for the actions of others.

There is a big difference between the Bible and Christian theology. In the New Testament Jesus speaks several times of those who will be cast into the fire, though not nearly as much as the Qur'an does. The sermon on the mount is very explicit and of cause Revelation speaks clearly about the lake of fire though that is not in the words of Jesus. In these places there is no doubt that it is the sinner, the evildoers who go there.
In the Old Testament (or the Torah) there is no mention of hellfire. The concept of Hell, yet only like the Catholic purgatory, was "retrofitted" into mainstream Rabbinic Judaism well after Christianity came about. There is punishment in the Torah, but the punishment is in this life. Soddom and Gomora (the people of Lut) was hit in this life by fire from the sky. The word Gehanna begin to appear in fringe Jewish texts in the 1st century BCE and the description resemble that of the Greek Tartarus. A valley with a river of fire at the bottom where the wicked is punished. (Yes Greek Mythology had punishment by fire in the afterlife. A testament to the fact that religions that are otherwise Shirk has preserved parts of the original message.) The name "Gehanna" was according to tradition either a place where the inhabitants of Jerusalem burned their garbage and where the Kings of Jerusalem use to sacrifice the children they had with pagan women.
Paul did not abolish the law completely. Only the rules regarding what is allowed to eat and what clothe to wear. Other sins such as Idolatry, vanity, greed and so on he Kept. Paul did say in the Corinthians that "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day (of judgement) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, MartyS said:

Warm greetings!

I have pondered the question, How does Jesus save us? I believe His death on the cross paid the penalty for my sins, which cancelled my debt to God, makes me forgiven, sets me free.

Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) saved many people from further going astray by calling them back to the pure, uncorrupted, monotheistic religion, that is Islam. He, as other Prophets, called upon people to completely submit themselves to what was originally revealed, not what they came to believe were the teachings. 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ), the creator of entire universe, can’t and doesn’t have any family; it is illogical and insulting, simply limiting the omnipotence of His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) being. He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) can forgive all the sins within seconds, therefore there is no need for Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) to cause anyone (in Christian understanding, it was himself!) to die for anyone else’s sins. Let’s not also forget that the mainstream Christian concept of trinity is not even found in the Bible, and as majority of Christian theology, it is one of the dogmas developed over hundreds of years at the ecumenical councils (325, 381, 431, 451, 553, 680-681, 754, 787 et al.). Christianity as a religion, just keeps adding or removing things from its dogma, and this in itself is the simplest reason to reject it altogether. 

The very early “Christians”, never believed in Jesus (عليه السلام) being the “Son of God” nor “God the Son.” For example, the First Council of Nicaea (325) declared that Jesus (عليه السلام) is "homoousios (ὁμοούσιον) with the Father" (of the same substance and being as “the Father”), practically before that, Jesus (عليه السلام) was treated by mainstream Christians as the Prophet of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ), and not one, conjoined entity. The concept of Jesus (عليه السلام) “being one” with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) “in substance” was entirely stolen and adopted into the mainstream Christian belief from the Gnostics. Before the 2nd century CE, there are no traces of any Christian believing in such dogma - for more, see Kelly, John Norman D (1972), Early Christian Creeds (3d ed.), London: Longman, p. 245.

Quote

But there is more. He said of Himself...

The modern day Torah (Old Testament) and the New Testament, in its entirety “the Bible”, are corrupted and nowhere close to what was originally revealed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) to all his Muslims. Jews and Christians removed and added things over years, with the New Testament being the prime example of that, where at times Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) calls Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) his father, refers to both in the first person (as if they are one), or calls Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) his Lord and God. The illogical fallacies applied are out there clearly visible for those who seek the truth, are formally or self educated and use their brains to analyse the simplest of the presented facts. 

Edited by OrthodoxTruth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, MartyS said:

I have pondered the question, How does Jesus save us? I believe His death on the cross paid the penalty for my sins, which cancelled my debt to God, makes me forgiven, sets me free. 

Hello Marty

This site has been around for almost twenty years and we have had this topic up here literally hundreds of times. 

It has even come up a number of times in the recent past.

It is also probably being discussed and debated in squillions of sites all over the Internet.

So I suggest that we lay it to rest for a while. 

It is not going to change anyone's mind. 

And if we use our brains, it is not difficult to see that it CANNOT be true.

Jesus' death just cannot save anyone.

The only things that can save one are - (a) divine compassion, (b) intercession by Jesus, for example and (c) the balance between one's own good deeds and bad. 

Or if one's good deeds are excessive, they may suffice, and (a) and (b) may not be required.

But intercession alone is extremely unlikely to save anyone. 

I tend to agree more with Christian Visitor who seems to have a somewhat different view.

9 hours ago, MartyS said:

"I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 

Believing and then sinning is probably worse than Not Believing and sinning.

Because if you believe, you must follow Jesus' words.

However, it is just possible that if a non-believer's disbelief is deemed forgivable, his sins may also be forgiven.

But a believer may have less of a chance, since he should have known better - that sin is forbidden.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, MartyS said:

I believe His death on the cross paid the penalty for my sins, which cancelled my debt to God, makes me forgiven, sets me free.

Well. At least you are testifying Jesus is not God. Great first step.

Now try to figure out why another human's death would cancel sins to God that didn't even exist at the time of the Jesus' death. Good luck. (hint, the answer has to do with the concept of justice, where every human is accountable for their own actions).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, MartyS said:

Propaganda of the Deed,

Thank you. This is a very good argument. But the other side of salvation by grace and not by works is that once we have been forgiven we now have God's seed, His Spirit living within us and we do not want to sin any longer. And for the first time in our lives, we have the strength of God to resist the temptations of the world, the enemy, and our flesh to sin.

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. - 1 John 3:4-10

Many blessings,

Marty

Marty, I understand what you are saying.  And may God bless you for having the faith that have.  

Marty, just a quick question though.  Would you say that you are living a sinless life because by you being a Christian and accepting Jesus you consider yourself abiding in Him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As Muslims we have to believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) but of course we do not believe various other things that certain Christians believe about him. However he will return to disprove those Christians and pray behind the Madhi (may Allah subhana wa tala hasten his reappearance) to unite Muslims and Christians. I think him praying behind the Mahdi (may Allah subhanan wa talal hasten his reappearance) is a very powerful statement and then Christians would accept Islam inshalah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Marty, I understand what you are saying.  And may God bless you for having the faith that have.  

Marty, just a quick question though.  Would you say that you are living a sinless life because by you being a Christian and accepting Jesus you consider yourself abiding in Him?

Thank you for calling me out on this question. No, I am not sinless. Even though I believe I am clean in God's sight (through no good works of my own) and I consider myself to abide in Jesus, my understanding is that sanctification is an ongoing process until I die and Jesus will keep me until that day. Until then, I am prone to sin, because sin dwells within me, and I must repent! In Revelation--which records the revelation of Jesus (given to Him by God to show things that would soon take place), who then gave it (through His angel) in a vision to His beloved disciple John, who was in exile on the island of Patmos--Jesus makes it clear in chapters 2 and 3 that works matter. He directs John to write letters to seven churches in Asia, rebuking them for their sins of which they had not repented. They included: works without love; false teaching; living among evil; tolerating immorality and idolatry; works not complete; being lukewarm; believing they were alive when they were dead; and believing they were rich when they were wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked. Jesus admonished them to: repent; remember their first love; be faithful unto death; hold fast until Jesus comes; keep His works until the end; remember and keep what they received and heard; wake up (I will come like a thief and you will not know when); and to buy gold, refined by fire, white garments and salve to anoint their eyes. To one church, Jesus warned to repent or He would war against them with the sword of His mouth. He warned the followers of Jezebel in Rev. 2:20-23 of sickness, great tribulation and the death of their children. To yet another, He stated that He reproves and disciplines those He loves; be zealous and repent. "I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and eat with him, and he with me." Jesus' promises to those, at every church, who conquer include: to eat of the Tree of Life in the paradise of God; a crown of life; not to be hurt by the second death; a white stone with a new name; hidden manna; authority over nations; the Morning Star; to be clothed in white; their name not blotted out from the Book of Life and their name confessed before the Father and His angels; to be a pillar in the temple of God, to never go out of it; to have written on him the name of God, the City of God, and Jesus' own new name; and to sit with Jesus on His throne.

 

Edited by MartyS
Clarification of Rev. 2:16, 20-23

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, MartyS said:

Thank you for calling me out on this question. No, I am not sinless. Even though I believe I am clean in God's sight (through no good works of my own) and I consider myself to abide in Jesus, my understanding is that sanctification is an ongoing process until I die and Jesus will keep me until that day. Until then, I am prone to sin, because sin dwells within me, and I must repent! In Revelation--which records the revelation of Jesus (given to Him by God to show things that would soon take place), who then gave it (through His angel) in a vision to His beloved disciple John, who was in exile on the island of Patmos--Jesus makes it clear in chapters 2 and 3 that works matter. He directs John to write letters to seven churches in Asia, rebuking them for their sins of which they had not repented. They included: works without love; false teaching; living among evil; tolerating immorality and idolatry; works not complete; being lukewarm; believing they were alive when they were dead; and believing they were rich when they were wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked. Jesus admonished them to: repent; remember their first love; be faithful unto death; hold fast until Jesus comes; keep His works until the end; remember and keep what they received and heard; wake up (I will come like a thief and you will not know when); and to buy gold, refined by fire, white garments and salve to anoint their eyes. To one church, Jesus warned to repent or He would war against them with the sword of His mouth. He warned the followers of Jezebel in Rev. 2:20-23 of sickness, great tribulation and the death of their children. To yet another, He stated that He reproves and disciplines those He loves; be zealous and repent. "I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and eat with him, and he with me." Jesus' promises to those, at every church, who conquer include: to eat of the Tree of Life in the paradise of God; a crown of life; not to be hurt by the second death; a white stone with a new name; hidden manna; authority over nations; the Morning Star; to be clothed in white; their name not blotted out from the Book of Life and their name confessed before the Father and His angels; to be a pillar in the temple of God, to never go out of it; to have written on him the name of God, the City of God, and Jesus' own new name; and to sit with Jesus on His throne.

 

Marty, 

I’m a little lost as to if your trying to gain some perspective about your religion or Islam or if you are just trying to spread the word to Muslims who don’t worship Jesus? If I was trying to become Christian and Alhamdulilah I’m not..I would be extremely confused by all that stuff you wrote up there. This is why I love Islam, because of the simplistic direct deposit message. And why does Sin still dwell within you if Jesus died for your sins already? Did it not work the first time? What’s the need to repent if Jesus already died for everybody's sins? I think I would want my money back. Shouldn't it  be smooth sailing From there on out? Do you believe Jesus is the son of God or do you believe he is God or all three Gods in one body and flesh? Do you believe Jesus is brown skin hewbrew or British/French like most of the pictures depicted around the world? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

Marty, 

I’m a little lost as to if your trying to gain some perspective about your religion or Islam or if you are just trying to spread the word to Muslims who don’t worship Jesus? If I was trying to become Christian and Alhamdulilah I’m not..I would be extremely confused by all that stuff you wrote up there. This is why I love Islam, because of the simplistic direct deposit message. And why does Sin still dwell within you if Jesus died for your sins already? Did it not work the first time? What’s the need to repent if Jesus already died for everybody's sins? I think I would want my money back. Shouldn't it  be smooth sailing From there on out? Do you believe Jesus is the son of God or do you believe he is God or all three Gods in one body and flesh? Do you believe Jesus is brown skin hewbrew or British/French like most of the pictures depicted around the world? 

Abdul Karim,

Thank you for your questions and comments. Because these words in Revelation reveal prophecy, I.e., future events, I think they are meant to be confusing until the End Times. But I wanted to share them with you, because this teaching by Jesus came after His death and resurrection; and I wasn't sure you had ever heard it. Many Christians simply don't read it, even though it is in the Bible, because it is confusing. However, these chapters confirm what Jesus said in His "Sermon on The Mount" in Matthew, chapters 5 through 7, when He was still alive as a man. That message was that we cannot be good enough to be saved from our sins: 

For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees (experts in the law, most holy men), you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:20

Jesus did not come to Earth to make us sinless. He came to make us righteous, something we could never do for ourselves. We needed an Adha. Jesus' teachings in Matthew and Revelation address the attitude of our hearts. Jesus came and died to give us new hearts. The judgments pronounced upon the seven churches, except for immorality and idolatry, were for sick and sinful hearts. And in the Sermon on The Mount, Jesus explained how immorality and idolatry begin in the heart. Repentance for salvation only happens once. Repentance for human mistakes can be as often as the conviction from the Holy Spirit speaks to our conscience. Jesus told Peter once you have bathed, you only need to wash your feet.

8 Peter said to him, "You shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no share with me."
9 Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!"
10 Jesus said to him, "The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you."
11 For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, "Not all of you are clean." - John 13:8-11

To answer your question about worshipping one God or three Gods, I agree with you there is only One God. As Christians, we consider the threefold character of God: God the Creator; God the Redeemer, and God the Counselor. This is how Jesus explained His relationship with His Father to Jews who wanted to stone Him for blasphemy.

28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one."
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?"
33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?
35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came-and Scripture cannot be broken-
36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."
39 Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.
40 He went away again across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing at first, and there he remained.
41 And many came to him. And they said, "John did no sign, but everything that John said about this man was true."
42 And many believed in him there. - John 10:28-42

To answer your last question, I don't know the color of Jesus' skin. I imagine it was brown. At one place in Revelation, His body is described like this!

12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades." - Revelation 1:12-18

Grace and peace!

Edited by MartyS
Correct typo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, MartyS said:

To answer your question about worshipping one God or three Gods, I agree with you there is only One God. As Christians, we consider the threefold character of God: God the Creator; God the Redeemer, and God the Counselor. This is how Jesus explained His relationship with His Father to Jews who wanted to stone Him for blasphemy.

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
 

30 I and the father are one 

To answer your last question, I don't know the color of Jesus' skin. I imagine it was brown. At one place in Revelation, His body is described like this!

 

See Marty this is where the difference will always exist between Our religion, Islam and your religion, which is Pagan Christianity.  You say you agree that there is only one God, but then you turn back and associate Jesus with being a Son of God and then go on to insinuate that they are both one? You can’t say you believe in one God that includes two entities. This is called polytheism. I mean I guess you can just outright say that Jesus is God which could be indicative of monotheism...but then you are still saying that a man is God, but not only a God, but a God that humans hung on the cross? A God that was killed by his own creation because he wished to save his own creation from their Sins? You see where I’m going with this Marty? Are you not seeing the hypocrisy in all of this? And to top it off you say Jesus May have been brown, but unlike most of the pictures around the world which depict Jesus in the image of colonial rulers as white because they saw themselves from a Godly complex as being conquerors of other races. So even more hypocrisy on top of hypocrisy. 

There are Christians who are truly monotheistic like Muslims who believe in one true God with no partnership or association to God and follow teachings of Jesus. Some accept Muhammad and some do not accept Muhammad but still prefer the teachings of Jesus for reasons that. be but at least they can say that they don’t commit blasphemy against Allah as to his oneness. 

So now Marty...this goes back to my original topic from earlier last week titled The Two Species: Believers and Unbelievers. Which species are you? You are either a Believer at heart who is completely off the path and is subconsciously seeking guidance in this forum or you are a Disbeliever who’s aim is to mislead believers away from the straight path of Allah purposefully. 

In the Holy Qur'an In a chapter called Tawhid which is the 112 chapter of the Qur'an. 

(Say Allah is one! The eternal besought of all. He  Begets not nor is he begotten and nothing is comparable to him).  

So Marty this means God is one! God has no partnership. God is eternal having no beginning and no end. God doesn't give birth to sons or daughters. God isn’t born into existence as a man or any type of creation that exist or we can imagine with our minds. Absolutely Nothing is comparable to Allah. 

Peace, 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

You can’t say you believe in one God that includes two entitiesThis is called polytheism. I mean I guess you can just outright say that Jesus is God which could be indicative of monotheism...

AbdulKarim,

Peace be upon you. The idea of multiple persons of God is visible even in the first book of the Tawrat.

"Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness...'" Genesis 1:26

Christians believe that the Trinity is made up of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They greet one another using the Trinity.

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." - 2 Corinthians 13:14

In the Injeel, there is a story of Jesus being baptized in the Jordan River. The three persons of the Trinity are clearly revealed: God in the voice speaking from Heaven, Jesus as He stands on Earth, and the Holy Spirit descending.

16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." - Matthew 3:16-17

We believe the Trinity is about God (who is one) in three persons, or three aspects of Himself.

3 hours ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

but then you are still saying that a man is God, but not only a God, but a God that humans hung on the cross? A God that was killed by his own creation because he wished to save his own creation from their Sins?

We do not say that Jesus is a man. Rather, Jesus Christ is the Incarnate Word of God.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.  - Isaiah 9:6

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.
19 And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.
20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the Prophet:
23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel" (which means, God with us). 
24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife,
25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. - Matthew 1:18-25

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:1,14

We believe: God is holy and all humans are sinful. No one is righteous in the sight of God. We have all broken God's Law. What if the scale on Judgment Day is 50/50? All are to be punished by death (eternal separation from God). All need salvation through an eternal sacrifice. Jesus Christ was sinless from birth and conquered sin and Satan. God is a just judge. A sinner cannot redeem another sinner. Jesus can intercede and redeem for all humanity. Jesus is the true Adha sacrifice. He paid the debt humanity owed to God. Jesus conquered death when He rose from the dead. Forgiveness can be experienced through repentance, because of the redemption of Christ.

Grace and peace,

Marty

 

Edited by MartyS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MartyS said:

8 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.
19 And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.
20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the Prophet:
23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel" (which means, God with us). 
24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife,
25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. - Matthew 1:18-25

hi , in our opinion this story just made up to reduces insults of Jewishs to Lady Mary (عليه السلام) but we based as uncorrupted word of God as Qur'an that she didn't be with a man & birth of Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) was like creation of Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) that Adam (عليه السلام) came to life without parents 

Ziyarah vlogs: Baghdad, Iraq. Masjid Buratha (birthplace of Prophet Isa/Jesus (as))

 https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g294001-d8070080-Reviews-Buratha_Mosque-Baghdad_Baghdad_Province.html

http://wikimapia.org/4305196/Masjid-Buratha

leftquote.gifThe Imam (peace be upon him) said: Here (on the white rock) Mary (peace be upon her) gave birth to Prophet Christ (peace be upon him).rightquote.gif

The tradition says that after the water began gushing out of the rock with the miracle of Al-Imam Ali (peace be upon him), and his companions did ablution and drank the water, the Imam hinted at a near place and said to his companions: dig it, there are seven hands …, when they dug that place they discovered a white stone. The Imam (peace be upon him) then said: Here (on the white rock) Mary (peace be upon her) gave birth to Prophet Christ (peace be upon him).

9baratha_mosque2.jpg

9baratha_mosque5.jpg

This very precious white piece of rock is present to-date in the mosque. Every one who visits this mosque, prays near it. Ayah Al-Korsi and names of fourteen Ma’sumeen (peace be upon them) are engraved on the sides of the rock.

According to reports, 70 of Prophets and their deputies including Ibraham, Christ, Danyal, Joshua, Ilyas and Al-Imam Ali offered prayer therein, and that there is a grave of one of Allah’s Prophets, and that 20 thousand and one hundred martyrs will be resurrected in that place.

9baratha_mosque3.jpg

https://en.shafaqna.com/27612/historic-perspective-of-al-buratha-mosque/

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g294001-d8070080-Reviews-Buratha_Mosque-Baghdad_Baghdad_Province.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buratha_mosque_bombing

لقصة العجيبة لحفر الامام علي لبئر براثا (فلم قصير)

strange story about finding of well of Buratha by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) (Short film)

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Buratha Mosque

One of the famous mosques of Baghdad, the Buratha Mosque is situated on the road between Baghdad and Kazimiyyah. In his book of Mu’jam al-Buldan, al-Hamawi, one of the historians of the fifth century, has referred to this mosque. Likewise, traditions reported from the Ahl al-Bayt (‘a) have referred to this mosque. Shaykh al-Qummi, in his book of Mafatih al-Jinan,92 has also mentioned this mosque and its merits with some details.

Let us now cite a tradition that is reported by Shaykh al-Saduq, in man-la-yahdhuruhu’l-faqih and Shaykh al-Tusi, in Tahdhib al-Ahkam, on the authority of Jabir ibn ‘Abdullah al-Ansari, the magnificent companion of the Holy Prophet (S):

Upon his return from fighting the evil forces, Imam ‘Ali (‘a) led about one hundred thousand men in a congregational prayer at Buratha. Upon completion, a Christian man came out from his hermitage and asked about the commander-in-chief of our army. He was thus led to Imam ‘Ali (‘a).

“Are you a Prophet, sir?” asked the Christian.

“No, I am not,” answered Imam ‘Ali (‘a), “the Prophet, who is my master, has died.”

“So, you are a Prophet’s successor, are you not?” asked the man.

“Yes, I am,” answered Imam ‘Ali (‘a) and asked the man to sit with him, “Why have you asked these questions?” asked Imam ‘Ali (‘a).

The man explained, “This hermitage was established here because of this place, which is Buratha. In the divinely revealed books, I have read that no one except a Prophet or a Prophet’s successor would lead such a group in a prayer at this place. I have just come to declare my conversion to Islam.”

So, the man became a Muslim and accompanied us to Kufah. On their way, Imam ‘Ali (‘a) asked him, “Do you know who offered prayers at this place?”

“Jesus and his mother (‘a) did,” answered the man.

“May I tell you more,” suggested Imam ‘Ali (‘a).

“Yes, please,” answered the man.

“The Friend of Allah (I.e. Prophet Abraham (S)) also offered prayers at this place,” informed Imam ‘Ali (‘a).93

https://www.al-Islam.org/role-ahl-al-bayt-building-virtuous-community-book-7-Muhammad-Baqir-al-hakim/chapter-3-mosques-and#buratha-mosque

image.jpeg  Ù†ØªÛŒØ¬Ù‡ تصویری برای ‪mosque Buratha‬‏ Ù†ØªÛŒØ¬Ù‡ تصویری برای ‪mosque Buratha‬‏ Ù†ØªÛŒØ¬Ù‡ تصویری برای ‪mosque Buratha‬‏

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

 

A God that cannot find any way to forgive humans for crimes that they did not commit, except by killing his son/himself?

 

Muhammad Ali,

Yes! But it was not God's last resort. It was His plan from the beginning. He said to the serpent in the Garden,

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."  - Genesis 3:15

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. - John 3:16

Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. - John 15:13

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. - 1 Corinthians 15:22

1 hour ago, Muhammed Ali said:

You would not accept that sort of reasoning in any other area of lIfe?

Accepting God's plan for my eternal destiny has changed my reasoning in every area of my life.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. - Romans 8:1-11

Grace and Peace and Blessings!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, MartyS said:

Muhammad Ali,

Yes! But it was not God's last resort. It was His plan from the beginning. He said to the serpent in the Garden,

Why the need for such a 'plan'?

Did God think like this: "I have a great plan! I will create humans who will be born as sinners even though they have never sinned. Then I will kill my son who also happens to be me and thus not really my son. Then the humans will have their non-sins erased. That is a brilliant plan!"

How does killing yourself erase the of sins of others?

Doesn't any of this make you uneasy? Or are you intellectually totally at ease with it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, MartyS said:

Muhammad Ali,

Grace and Peace and Blessings!

Peace, 

My Last post for you Marty, because at this point I can see you are more on a mission like a priest in the room aiming the cross and citing bible verses as you sprinkle holy water laced with garlic. But on my exit I will leave you this reading. The link at the bottom is an article about the concept of the Trinity and how it originated from Babylon and predates Jesus arrival by thousands of years. They don’t teach this is at bible studies, trust me I know because I took bible studies for many years. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/romecorruptedchristianity.wordpress.com/2013/07/02/nimrods-family-created-God-the-father-and-God-the-son/amp/

peace, 

Edited by starlight
Edited out looooooong quote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Why the need for such a 'plan'?

Did God think like this: "I have a great plan! I will create humans who will be born as sinners even though they have never sinned. Then I will kill my son who also happens to be me and thus not really my son. Then the humans will have their non-sins erased. That is a brilliant plan!"

How does killing yourself erase the of sins of others?

Doesn't any of this make you uneasy? Or are you intellectually totally at ease with it?

Jesus is my Lord. He was put to death because He said He was the Son of God. He rose from the dead to prove He is the Son of God. I will never deny Him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/24/2019 at 10:15 AM, MartyS said:

I believe His death on the cross paid the penalty for my sins, which cancelled my debt to God, makes me forgiven, sets me free. But there is more. He said of Himself...

On 4/24/2019 at 10:15 AM, MartyS said:

If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

On 4/24/2019 at 10:15 AM, MartyS said:

For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment-what to say and what to speak.

On 4/24/2019 at 10:15 AM, MartyS said:

What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me."

So Jesus died. Jesus said he didn't come to judge. The word is the judge which was given to him to relay by God, I.e. God is the judge.

Jesus goes on to say he has not spoken on his authority, but the Father's. Meaning he is nothing more than a messenger and Prophet of God.

He repeats again, "I say as the Father has told me". He therefore knows nothing on his own.

Then you say,

11 hours ago, MartyS said:

Jesus is my Lord.

So is your Lord Jesus or the Father who sent Jesus? Or do you worship Jesus who made it very clear that he worships the Father? Or do you give the same worship you give Jesus as you do to the Father meaning there is more than 1 God to worship? If you reply to nothing else I hope you give a clear answer to this in light of Jesus' remarks above.

11 hours ago, MartyS said:

Jesus is my Lord. He was put to death

So if Jesus died, how can he be your Lord. Surely your Lord must be eternal (I.e. the Father).

11 hours ago, MartyS said:

He rose from the dead to prove He is the Son of God. I will never deny Him.

If he died, who gave him power to come back to life?

Accepting the "Father" as the one and only Lord does not mean you are denying Jesus; as you quoted above Jesus came to deliver a message nothing more nothing less. So to add to what Jesus said (asserting he is God) means you are denying Jesus and his mission because you are putting words in his mouth. To accept Jesus is to accept his word and message; he is relaying the Word of His "Father" and Your "Father", the one God. To alter his message is to deny Jesus and all the suffering he went through for you for the sake of "the Father" (God).

Hopefully you stop and think for a few minutes before quickly typing down a defensive reply. I do write all this with the utmost respect. 

All the best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, dragonxx said:

 

Dragonxx, 

salaam wa  laikum,

Please Give Marty, a chance to process the article that I referred to. I Notice Marty, referred back to Muhammed Ali but didn’t respond to the article prior which clearly shows the pagan origins of the Trinity and how all the ancient pagan religions used the trinity throughout time such as Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Hindus etc. Babylon is the origin of all pagan religions including pagan Christianity. If I was a Christian I would need some time to process that article Myself. 

Everyone in this thread at this point has delivered sound logical thought and evidence but now let’s give time for reflection. I will post this article again just in case anyone hasn’t read it. As a matter of fact if any Christian here has some insight I would like to know their opinion of the trinity, The Father, Son, the Holy Spirit being established thousands of years before the arrival of Jesus. No back and forth about religion, to the polytheistic Christians be your way and to us Muslims be our way. It’s just gaining understanding now. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/romecorruptedchristianity.wordpress.com/2013/07/02/nimrods-family-created-God-the-father-and-God-the-son/amp/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, dragonxx said:

So Jesus died. Jesus said he didn't come to judge. The word is the judge which was given to him to relay by God, I.e. God is the judge.

Jesus goes on to say he has not spoken on his authority, but the Father's. Meaning he is nothing more than a messenger and Prophet of God.

He repeats again, "I say as the Father has told me". He therefore knows nothing on his own.

Then you say,

So is your Lord Jesus or the Father who sent Jesus? Or do you worship Jesus who made it very clear that he worships the Father? Or do you give the same worship you give Jesus as you do to the Father meaning there is more than 1 God to worship? If you reply to nothing else I hope you give a clear answer to this in light of Jesus' remarks above.

So if Jesus died, how can he be your Lord. Surely your Lord must be eternal (I.e. the Father).

If he died, who gave him power to come back to life?

Accepting the "Father" as the one and only Lord does not mean you are denying Jesus; as you quoted above Jesus came to deliver a message nothing more nothing less. So to add to what Jesus said (asserting he is God) means you are denying Jesus and his mission because you are putting words in his mouth. To accept Jesus is to accept his word and message; he is relaying the Word of His "Father" and Your "Father", the one God. To alter his message is to deny Jesus and all the suffering he went through for you for the sake of "the Father" (God).

Hopefully you stop and think for a few minutes before quickly typing down a defensive reply. I do write all this with the utmost respect. 

All the best.

Thank you, Dragonxx. Your questions are so good. I'm not sure I can answer them to your satisfaction, but I will try.

You are correct that only God should be worshipped, as Jesus said to Satan, He would not worship Satan...

5 And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time,
6 and said to him, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will.
7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours."
8 And Jesus answered him, "It is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'"  - Luke 4:5-8

Although Jesus allowed Himself to be called the Son of God, He preferred to call Himself the Son of Man. When He was being interrogated by the high priest before being sentenced to death...

61 But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"
62 And Jesus said, "I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."
63 And the high priest tore his garments and said, "What further witnesses do we need?
64 You have heard his blasphemy. What is your decision?" And they all condemned him as deserving death. - Mark 14:61-64

Even David said,

The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool."  - Psalm 110:1

Finally, Jesus permitted His disciples to call Him, "Lord."

23 And when he got into the boat, his disciples followed him.
24 And behold, there arose a great storm on the sea, so that the boat was being swamped by the waves; but he was asleep.
25 And they went and woke him, saying, "Save us, Lord; we are perishing."
26 And he said to them, "Why are you afraid, O you of little faith?" Then he rose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.
27 And the men marveled, saying, "What sort of man is this, that even winds and sea obey him?" - Matthew 8:23-27

And Jesus told His disciples to believe in Him as they believed in the Father...

1 "Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
4 And you know the way to where I am going."
5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?"
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him." - John 14:1-7

And, as we know, Jesus is not dead. He is coming back.

3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
4 And Jesus answered them, "See that no one leads you astray.
5 For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray.
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.
11 And many false Prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:3-14

We agree, Jesus came on mission from the Father; I believe to restore my relationship with God that had been broken by my sin (and that of all mankind). In the end, God will restore all things to Himself.

24 Then comes the end, when he (Jesus) delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
25 For he (Jesus) must reign until he (God) has put all his enemies under his (Jesus) feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his (Jesus') feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he (God) is excepted who put all things in subjection under him (Jesus).
28 When all things are subjected to him (Jesus), then the Son himself will also be subjected to him (God) who put all things in subjection under him (Jesus), that God may be all in all. - 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Respectfully yours, Marty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, MartyS said:

"What sort of man is this, that even winds and sea obey him?" - Matthew 8:23-27

hi other Prophets like as Prophet Solimom/suleyman (عليه السلام) have this authority too 

 

17 hours ago, MartyS said:

24 Then comes the end, when he (Jesus) delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
25 For he (Jesus) must reign until he (God) has put all his enemies under his (Jesus) feet.

so what is the benefit of his return to an anarchy world ,without ruling & civilization nobody needs a religion or savior 

17 hours ago, MartyS said:

The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

based on Qur'an every living will die except Allah also Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) will die after his second coming 

A good example is Edward Elwall, prominent eighteenth-century Baptist merchant and writer of religious literature. In 1726 he wrote in his tract Dagon fallen upon his stumps, `Is it not as gross an Absurdity to say, the One God of Heaven and Earth, is Three or Four Persons, as to say, the One King of Great Britain and Ireland, is Three or Four Persons? Is not the former altogether as false as the latter?'

According to Elwall the Bible position is simple and straightforward. God is One (Exodus 20:3). Jesus Christ is our Lord and Master, the Messiah and reigning and soon­ coming King of the promised Fifth Monarchy of Daniel chapter two; our Savior, who was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, worked great miracles and wonders by the permission and power of God, and was snatched up from the death of the cross and the grave to ascend to the right hand of God. But he is not God.

Elwall recognizes the authority of the ten command­ments. These are the words revealed without intermediary to the multitude of humankind. These are above all the words of God Himself. To maintain that Jesus is God the Son is to break the first commandment, that is, Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Therefore Edward Elwall begins his tract with these words: 'Thou shalt have no other Gods but Me......

......It appears that the expression Son of God is also used, similarly to the expression Son of Man, to intimate that Jesus is the promised Messiah. That can be inferred from Daniel 3:24, if this text has a messianic implication. Let it be noted that Jesus himself did not like to use the term at all. He preferred other expressions of his Messiah ship, most especially the expression Son of Man.

https://www.al-Islam.org/Islam-in-the-bible-thomas-mcelwain/son-God-or-God-son

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

Jesus here emphasized what will happen to him by specifically saying that he will be like Jonas in terms of the number of days and nights he will be in the heart of the Earth, “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.” (Matthew 12:40). Now let us see if this prophecy came to pass.

Jesus was crucified on Friday, this is certainly known among all Christians, and it’s the reason for calling that Friday by “Good Friday.” Jesus was buried on Friday night. Now let us start counting:

1. Friday night Jesus was buried. This is night #1.

2. Saturday day Jesus was still in the grave. This is day #1.

3. Saturday night Jesus was still in the grave. This is night #2.

Mary Magdalene, very early in the morning before sun rise and after the Sabbath (Saturday), went to see Jesus, and found that he was not there. The following verses describe this event:

Mark 16:1 And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulcher at the rising of the sun.

Mark 16:3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulcher?

Mark 16:4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.

Mark 16:5 And entering into the sepulcher, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

Mark 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

The number of days and nights Jesus spent in the heart of the Earth is 1 day and 2 nights. This challenges what Jesus had prophesied.

When I tell this to my Christian brothers, some of them responded by saying that what Jesus wanted to really say was that he will be gone for a while, and not that he will be in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights. This is clearly not the case. Had Jesus meant that, he would have said it, but it is clear that he wanted people to know this was a sign (miracle) and it will be like Jonas’ sign, and he will be in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights. These were his own words.

Another argument is that the Jews used a different system for the day and night which makes the prophecy come true. The idea says that Jews used to consider a day shorter than we consider it now. If you would ask a Jewish person about their calendar you would find that this is not the case, and a day does not become shorter at all. The difference between a Jewish day and a regular day is the time when the day starts and ends. Jewish people considered the day over when the sun went down, whereas now we consider midnight to be the end of a day. There is no difference in the length of the day, and accepting the Jewish day would only make things worse as far as the prophecy goes.

https://www.al-Islam.org/articles/closer-look-christianity-Mohammed-qasem

God is not a man or the Son of man.

Numbers 23:19 (Hebrew) lo ish el wikhazzev uven adham weyithnetham: hahu amar welo ya’ase wedhibber welo yeqimenna. God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: has he said so, and shall he not do so? or has he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Notice that according to the text God is not a human being, not “the son of man,” not any “person” or “persons” at all, not one person nor three persons.

The Son of man cannot save you.

Psalms 146:3 (Hebrew) al tivtkhu vindhivim: beven adham she-en lo theshu’a. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation.

https://www.al-Islam.org/shii-beliefs-bible-thomas-mcelwain/lecture-1-bible-nutshell#God-not-man-or-son-man

 

Who is "Son of Man" really?

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/27/2019 at 9:43 PM, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

My Last post for you Marty, because at this point I can see you are more on a mission like a priest in the room aiming the cross and citing bible verses as you sprinkle holy water laced with garlic.

I have been on this site a number of years and I'm not sure if it is the same user or a bunch of them, but these Christian dawah givers all use the same techniques, with their very formal, polite and pleasant toned replies.

It is rather cringe to be honest. But I do not for a second buy it. There is always an agenda beneath it all.

Authubillah 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

so what is the benefit of his return to an anarchy world ,without ruling & civilization nobody needs a religion or savior 

On 4/29/2019 at 8:06 AM, MartyS said:

Hi, Ashvazdanghe. Thank you for sharing your beliefs with me. I agree it would be sad if the world were forever destroyed. But the Prophet Isaiah said (God speaking)...

"For behold, I create new heavens and a new Earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.  - Isaiah 65:17

And the Bible tells us...

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new Earth in which righteousness dwells. - 2 Peter 3:11-13

7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Who is "Son of Man" really?

It is my understanding that son of man is a descendant of a human...just as Jesus was the son of Mary. Psalm 146 exhorts us not to put our trust in or give praise to a descendant of a human, even a prince, but only God. I believe you and I are, in a human way, children of God. That's why we call Him our Father. But, we Christians believe Jesus was begotten of God, fully human and fully divine. So He is The Son of God.

Best regards, Marty

P.S. I'm not ignoring your other differences. I just don't know the answer. I believe one day, we will. Blessings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

I have been on this site a number of years and I'm not sure if it is the same user or a bunch of them, but these Christian dawah givers all use the same techniques, with their very formal, polite and pleasant toned replies.

It is rather cringe to be honest. But I do not for a second buy it. There is always an agenda beneath it all.

Authubillah 

Propaganda of the Deed,

Thanks for being honest with me. I can understand why you distrust me. I disdain spiritual evangelists who want to use my soul to further their eternal rewards. But if you are right and I do have an agenda, it is this...

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen." - Revelation 7:9-12

It makes me so happy to imagine how one day, maybe today, this prophecy will be fulfilled. I pray for my friends on this site, Muslims and Christians and Jews. I pray for you by name. (I call you PoD) :) 

Many blessings,

Marty

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

these Christian dawah givers all use the same techniques, with their very formal, polite and pleasant toned replies.

We are equally at fault (or perhaps more so) in that we keep engaging and re-engaging with them and trying to convince them that they are wrong.

A famous teaching of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) goes as follows:

"if you argue with an ignorant person, you have already lost the argument."

In other words, we should not engage in such arguments at all.

The term "ignorant" includes those whose beliefs, we believe, are flawed.

And that is what I have been seeing in this forum for the last 17 years, when I joined this place.

People unnecessarily engaging with people and nothing of note happening in the end.

If you leave them alone to post what they wish, they will eventually tire themselves out and stop.

The choice is ours - we can keep arguing endlessly or we can call it quits.

Because in the end, neither can they convince you nor can you convince them.        

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, MartyS said:

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen." - Revelation 7:9-12

Concerning The Throne

Says the Shaykh Abu Ja'far: Our belief concerning the Throne ('arsh) is that it is something which is carried or supported by the whole of creation.1 And 'arsh according to another interpretation is knowledge (ilm). And as-Sadiq, on whom be peace, was asked (the meaning ofthe saying of Allah, the Mighty and Glorious:

“The Beneficent One, Who it established on the Throne” (Qur'an 20:5).2

He said: He is equidistant3 from everything, and not a single thing is nearer to Him than another. Now that 'arsh4, which is supported by the whole of creation,5 is borne by eight angels, each possessing eight eyes, each eye as large as the world.

One of the angels is of human shape and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for the sons of Adam. The second is of the shape of a bull, and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for all beasts. And the third is of the shape of a lion, and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for all beasts of prey. And the fourth is of the shape of a fowl, and he asks Allah to provide sustenance for all birds.

Today there exist four angels, but when the Day of Resurrection comes, they will become eight in number.

The 'arsh which means knowledge is borne by four amongst the ancients and four amongst the later ones; the former ones are Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, on all of whom be peace; and the later are Muhammad, 'Ali, Hasan, and Husayn, the blessings of Allah upon them. This is what has been handed down from the Imams by a reliable chain of authorities concerning the Throne and its bearers.

Now the reason why these persons became the bearers of the 'arsh, that is the knowledge (of Allah), is that the ancient Prophets, who lived prior to our Prophet Muhammad, namely, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, brought four different faiths. It was through these that the true knowledge passed to them (I.e. Muhammad, Ali, etc.). Similarly the true knowledge was transmitted after Muhammad, by 'Ali, Hasan and Husayn to those amongst the Imams who came after Husayn.6

https://www.al-Islam.org/a-shiite-creed-shaykh-saduq/concerning-throne

• In many of the Riwaya, it says Arsh is the knowledge of God.

• The measurement and the destiny of the creation are made there.

• All measures proceed from thee through the angels who live there.

• This is what Allama says is the meaning of the verse in Surah Hadid;

“He knows what comes down from the heavens to the Earth and whatever goes up from it to the heavens.”(57:4)

• Arsh is that category of knowledge of God in which the measurement of the whole creation is already worked and out and proceeds from.

• Everything is inside the Arsh.

• Some say that there is an Arsh somewhere in the heavens but it is incorrect.

• It is there before, and after the creations.

• Everything was on water before it.

• Everything is just between them.

• Every part and particle would cry to praise Him after the final judgment and then all angels will come back and carry the Arsh.

• This is what Allama Tabatabai says; “Completely in conformity with the explanations by the Imams”.

Wassalam.

https://www.al-Islam.org/articles/arsh-throne-Allah-shaykh-Dr.-Muhammad-saeed-bahmanpour

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...