Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
MartyS

Is this not the Judgment of God?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

On 4/30/2019 at 1:45 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

Ashvazdanghe,

I found the answer to your question. It is made more clear in the gospel of Luke 22:7-24:12. The Three Days and Nights are Three Nights and Days. They begin with the celebration of Passover meal at sundown on Thursday, which is perfect, because Jesus was the true Passover Lamb. He told His disciples he would be betrayed by one of them, handed over to the authorities, and put to death. He was Arrested Thursday evening, Tried and Crucified on Friday day (1st 24-hour day); He was in the Tomb on Friday evening and Saturday day, the day of Preparation, and beginning of Sabbath (2nd day); and He Resurrected at or before dawn on Sunday, the 3rd Day!

1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared.
2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
3 but when they went in they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel.
5 And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living among the dead?
6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee,
7 that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise." - Luke 24:1-7

Many blessings!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/24/2019 at 9:27 AM, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

It goes against the Old Testament of not passing the buck onto others or being answerable for the actions of others.

Respectfully, I disagree. Jesus explained that He did not come to abolish the Old Testsment. Rather, He said He came to fulfill it. The Old Testament did not require good deeds to atone for sins. It required the shedding of blood, bulls and lambs and goats. God demonstrated the type of sacrifice He would require to atone for the sins of mankind is the Passover Lamb.

"What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats.  - Isaiah 1:11

"Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.  - Isaiah 1:18

For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp. So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. - Hebrews 13:11-12

Blessings of God, my friend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, MartyS said:

He was Arrested Thursday evening, Tried and Crucified on Friday day (1st 24-hour day); He was in the Tomb on Friday evening and Saturday day, the day of Preparation, and beginning of Sabbath (2nd day); and He Resurrected at or before dawn on Sunday, the 3rd Day!

hi anyway we don't believe to this part that in some narration it said it was Yahuda that his appearance changed to Jesus/Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) & they arrested the wrong person that because of that Apostle Peter (رضي الله عنه) denied him because he verified that they take someone like him not the real one but Paul & other Christians writers changed the real story to current story to show him as great sacrifice from  desendats of Issac (عليه السلام) while the real  great sacrifice was Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) sacrifice from children of Ishmael (عليه السلام) that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) will back to world after reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj)  & will take government from him & Prophet Isa (as)/Jesus after his second coming will die after finishing his job of helping Imam Mahdi (aj) & Imam will bury him with a dress that made by her mother the lady Maryam /Mary (عليه السلام) that all doubts will clear about his death.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

hi anyway we don't believe to this part that in some narration it said it was Yahuda that his appearance changed to Jesus/Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) & they arrested the wrong person that because of that Apostle Peter (رضي الله عنه) denied him because he verified that they take someone like him not the real one but Paul & other Christians writers changed the real story to current story to show him as great sacrifice from  desendats of Issac (عليه السلام) while the real  great sacrifice was Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) sacrifice from children of Ishmael (عليه السلام) that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) will back to world after reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj)  & will take government from him & Prophet Isa (as)/Jesus after his second coming will die after finishing his job of helping Imam Mahdi (aj) & Imam will bury him with a dress that made by her mother the lady Maryam /Mary (عليه السلام) that all doubts will clear about his death.

Thank you for sharing your beliefs with me, Ashvazdanghe. I didn't know this. Now I see why you believe as you do. We both agree that when Jesus returns, all doubts will clear about His death. Our Bible teaches us that when Jesus returns again, this is how His appearance will be...

11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.
13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come, gather for the great supper of God,
18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great."
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the Earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false Prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh. - Revelation 19:11-21

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MartyS said:

He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.

Hi there is in our narration that Jesus will descend from heaven with red cloth 

 

3 hours ago, MartyS said:

From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

It’s in our narrations that Imam Mahdi (aj) will have this sword also his army specially 313 persons will carry swords that have great power 

 

3 hours ago, MartyS said:

to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great."

It will be a Great War between Sufyani (la) & rest of Christians & groups of Muslims except Shia Muslims that all armies that united against him will defeat by him & this situation will happen 

 

3 hours ago, MartyS said:

And I saw the beast and the kings of the Earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false Prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

In Sunni narration there is a beast that is a mixture of multiple animals  that will separate believers from non believers by marking them  but in Shia narration Imam Ali (عليه السلام) will return as “Dabba”t Al Arz’(the creature on Earth) that at first people will terrify from him & he will separate believers from non believers by marking them with ring & stuff of Prophet Solomon (عليه السلام) but it said that Imam Mahdi (aj) will face with Jews with these two thing beside Ark of covenant & real Turbah & bible 

 

3 hours ago, MartyS said:

21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh. - Revelation 19:11-21

It’s only Sufyani (la) in Shia narrations or Dajjal in Sunni narrations that will do it & majority of wars of Imam Mahdi (aj) base on Shia narrations will be with Muslims & Jews that his relation with Christians in western world will be between war & peace that peace has greater portion but in Sunni narrations his war is only with non Muslims that war has greater portion with very limited times of peace 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, thank you again. Ashvazdanghe, for the other side of the story. Even though the story has not unfolded completely yet, it seems the whole world knows it is true. From God's perspective, that must be important. I wish we all had the same understanding of our common truths. I must say, I am relieved to be a Christian. By believing in Jesus, everything has been pre-planned and fore-ordained. All I have to do is believe and trust in Him. He takes care of me and everything else, justice is accomplished, no matter how it all unfolds. But I do pray for courage and perseverance from Him to "persevere until the end." And I would rather die as a martyr for Him than from this cancer. It would be such an honor for all eternity.

Peace, my friend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 12:15 AM, MartyS said:

Warm greetings!

I have pondered the question, How does Jesus save us? I believe His death on the cross paid the penalty for my sins, which cancelled my debt to God, makes me forgiven, sets me free. But there is more. He said of Himself...

"I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment-what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me." - John 12:46-50

Peace and blessings!

MartyS,

If I may ask, what or which sin?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ShiaMahamed said:

MartyS,

If I may ask, what or which sin?

ShiaMahamed,

Thank you for your question. I believe all unrighteousness is sin. God is a holy God, and I was separated from Him by my unholiness. Jesus came to cure the sickness of mankind. That just as through one man, Adam, sin came into the world, so through one man, Jesus Christ, came life. So bad deeds are the result of sin that leads to eternal death, and good deeds are the evidence of a changed earthly life, preceding eternal life with God our Father.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/28/2019 at 10:35 AM, dragonxx said:

So Jesus died. Jesus said he didn't come to judge. The word is the judge which was given to him to relay by God, I.e. God is the judge.

Jesus goes on to say he has not spoken on his authority, but the Father's. Meaning he is nothing more than a messenger and Prophet of God.

He repeats again, "I say as the Father has told me". He therefore knows nothing on his own.

Then you say,

So Is your Lord Jesus or the Father who sent Jesus? Or do you worship Jesus who made it very clear that he worships the Father? Or do you give the same worship you give Jesus as you do to the Father meaning there is more than 1 God to worship? If you reply to nothing else I hope you give a clear answer to this in light of Jesus' remarks above.

So if Jesus died, how can he be your Lord. Surely your Lord must be eternal (I.e. the Father).

If he died, who gave him power to come back to life?

Accepting the "Father" as the one and only Lord does not mean you are denying Jesus; as you quoted above Jesus came to deliver a message nothing more nothing less. So to add to what Jesus said (asserting he is God) means you are denying Jesus and his mission because you are putting words in his mouth. To accept Jesus is to accept his word and message; he is relaying the Word of His "Father" and Your "Father", the one God. To alter his message is to deny Jesus and all the suffering he went through for you for the sake of "the Father" (God).

Hopefully you stop and think for a few minutes before quickly typing down a defensive reply. I do write all this with the utmost respect. 

All the best.

Hello, dragonxx!

As I was reading the account of Jesus' crucifuxion this morning, I read this and remembered your question about who rose Jesus from the dead. It also speaks to the relationship between God the Father and God the Son.

11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
12 He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
13 He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father." - John 10:11-18

Jesus did not deny equality with God, and yet He is in subjection to God The Father. This makes Him a co-regent with The Father who is also under The Father's authority. But Jesus is much more than a Prophet. Therefore, it is acceptable to address Him as Lord. And yes, He died; but He is alive forevermore, which makes Him eternal in the future. And as the Word of God, He was present at the beginning of creation. Therefore He is eternal past. Many blessings and great peace during this time of Ramadan, descendant of Abraham and Ishmael. Your relative, grafted in to the family of Abraham, by faith in Jesus,

MartyS

Edited by MartyS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

References in New Testament regarding the Martyrdom of Husayn ((عليه السلام))

In the parlance of Christians, “New Testament” means “Injeel.” However, it is not “Injeel” that was revealed to Prophet Jesus ((عليه السلام)). It is a collection of books and letters compiled by Christian scholars and companions of Prophet Jesus. The last book of this collection is “The Revelation to John” which is attributed to John the companion of Jesus. It begins with the following words:

“The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John.”9

This book contains only allegories and similes. Christian scholars have tried to write commentaries on this and offered explanations but some points yet remain unexplained in their writings. Our scholars have also interpreted it and it shows that the twelfth and thirteenth chapter deals with the history of Islam from the birth of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to the end of the reign of Bani Umayyads. Hujjatul Islam, Maulana Sayyid Rahat Husayn (t.s.) has explained it in the 15th preface of his prefaces in his Tafsir Anwarul Qur’an. He has mentioned the text of ‘revelations’ in the book and written its interpretation in the margins. I have depended upon the author’s writings a great deal but mentioned the interpretations of the revelations in brackets. Because it would have been very inconvenient for the readers to read the text and the interpretations separately. Thus, John says in the beginning of the twelfth chapter of Revelations:

“And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman (prophethood) clothed with the sun (divine help was covering it), with the moon under her feet (Lady Fatima), and on her head a crown of twelve stars (meaning the twelve Imams would have authority in religion); she was with a child (waiting for advent) and she cried out in her pangs of birth (the time of advent was near), in anguish for delivery. And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon (infidels of Quraish), with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads.10 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the Earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they were defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world – he was thrown down to the Earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death (they got martyred in the propagation of faith).”11

After more prophecies, the twelfth chapter comes to an end and the thirteenth chapter begins with an account of Bani Umayyads. In this portion, Abdul Malik Ibn Marwan who consolidated the Umayyad rule for the second time is compared to a beast having ten horns and seven heads. Explaining this in the seventeenth chapter, it is said that the seven heads signify seven kings and the ten horns are also ten kings. Thus altogether it adds upto seventeen rulers. And that beast is the eighth ruler, who is born from the seventh one. Now please note that seven rulers passed before Abdul Malik and the kingdom of Abdul Malik was a result of their past kingdoms, otherwise he would not have been able to achieve anything. Apart from this, he was born from the seventh ruler, that is Marwan bin Hakam and thus he himself was the eighth ruler. And after Marwan there were ten kings including Abdul Malik Ibn Marwan as follows: (1) Abdul Malik Ibn Marwan (2) Walid bin Abdul Malik (3) Sulaiman bin Abdul Malik (4) Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz (5) Yazid Ibn Abdul Malik (6) Hisham Ibn Abdul Malik (7) Walid Ibn Yazid Ibn Abdul Malik (8) Yazid Ibn Walid Ibn Abdul Malik (9) Ibrahim Ibn Walid Ibn Abdul Malik (10) Marwan al-Himar. Thus this allegory and comparison perfectly fits this clan. In addition to this at the end of this same thirteenth chapter is the following sentence, “This calls for wisdom: Let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six (666).”

The following would show that the number 666 stands for the name of Abdul Malik:

Abdul (76) Malik (121) Bin (52) Marwan (297) Bin (52) Hakam (68) = 666.

Anyway, I am quoting the relevant portions of the thirteenth chapter of Revelation to John 13:

“And I saw a beast (Abdul Malik) rising out of the sea (of disbelief), with ten horns (ten successors) and seven heads (predecessors), with ten diadems upon its horns (all were kings) and a blasphemous name upon its heads. And the beast that I saw was like a leopard, its feet were like a bear’s and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. And to it the dragon (Quraish) gave his power and his throne and great authority. One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound (that is the third caliph was killed), but its mortal wound was healed (the kingdom again returned to them and Muawiyah became the king), and the whole Earth followed the beast with wonder. Men worshipped the dragon (they returned to the customs of the period of Ignorance), for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshipped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”

And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words (abusing ‘Ali was well known activity of the Umayyads), and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months; it opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven (Ahl al-Bayt). Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation, and all who dwell on Earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life (faith) of the Lamb (Imam Husayn) that was slain. (All those who do not have faith in Imam Husayn would follow Abdul Malik) If any one has an ear, let him hear:

If any one is to be taken captive,

to captivity he goes;

If any one slays with the sword,

with the sword must he be slain.

Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

After this, there is detailed explanation of Hajjaj Bin Yusuf and his atrocities. But this much is sufficient for our purpose. In all these four books the martyrdom of Imam Husayn ((عليه السلام)) is mentioned in a way that acknowledges its greatness and expresses love towards him while the enemies and killers of the Holy Imam ((عليه السلام)) are mentioned with disdain and malice. A noteworthy point is that wherever there is mention of prophethood and advent of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) it is invariably accompanied by the mention of the martyrdom of Imam Husayn ((عليه السلام)). And according to the statements of both Mahadewji and St. John, it was this martyrdom, which has secured and strengthened the religion of Muhammad. And this was not a poetic composition but the actual expression of the truth and facts that these great religious leaders have perfectly done in a way that was deserving for it. If only their followers had followed their teachings and adopted the Straight Path. And if only the Muslims had recognized the significance of the martyrdom of Imam Husayn ((عليه السلام)) in the true sense.

Command of Old Testament to Commemorate Ashura Day

After the time of His Eminence, Musa ((عليه السلام)) for many years the Jewish calendar began from the month of Rajab, and Moharram was their seventh month. Keeping in mind this point let us read the following verses of Leviticus 23:

“And the Lord said to Moses, “Say to the people of Israel, In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall observe a day of solemn rest, a memorial proclaimed with blast of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no laborious work; and you shall present an offering by fire to the Lord.”

“And the Lord said to Moses, “On the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement; it shall be for you a holy convocation and you shall afflict yourselves and present an offering by fire to the Lord. And you shall do no work on this same day; for it is a day of atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. For whoever is not afflicted on this same day shall be cut off from his people. And whoever does any work on this same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. You shall do no work: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves; on the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.”8

Now we should contemplate upon this and decide that when before the occurrence of the event the Almighty God had even commanded the Jews to observe mourning from the evening of 9th of Muharram to the evening of the 10th, and also warned them that one who did not follow this advice shall be as if he has left their religion. Now that the event has actually occurred is it not incumbent on the Muslim community more than the Jewish community to observe the mourning? And if one fails to act upon this, would he not be as if he has left this religion? Except for those who in the words of Mahadewji: “Even though they pretend to be friends of Mahamat.”

https://www.al-Islam.org/understanding-Karbala-allamah-Sayyid-saeed-akhtar-Rizvi/prophecies-regarding-tragedy-Karbala

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 9:52 PM, MartyS said:

ShiaMahamed,

Thank you for your question. I believe all unrighteousness is sin. God is a holy God, and I was separated from Him by my unholiness. Jesus came to cure the sickness of mankind. That just as through one man, Adam, sin came into the world, so through one man, Jesus Christ, came life. So bad deeds are the result of sin that leads to eternal death, and good deeds are the evidence of a changed earthly life, preceding eternal life with God our Father.

MartS,

I appreciate your reply.

In all honesty, you are referring to Ancestral Sin, aren't you?

The argument of one being prone to sin, is not in question, as you have already addressed it.

As advocates of the word "Father", Christianity: has labelled the Father of Humanity (Prophet Adam) as the first sinner: Christianity, has insulted the meaning of father.

Although, I do not contest with you, with Prophet Isa statues as a Prophet but I do contest with you the notion of understanding you have of Prophet Isa 

In regards to the doctrine of Ancestral Sin (Original Sin), there is many inconsistency and contradictions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/11/2019 at 2:53 AM, ShiaMahamed said:

MartS,

I appreciate your reply.

In all honesty, you are referring to Ancestral Sin, aren't you?

The argument of one being prone to sin, is not in question, as you have already addressed it.

As advocates of the word "Father", Christianity: has labelled the Father of Humanity (Prophet Adam) as the first sinner: Christianity, has insulted the meaning of father.

Although, I do not contest with you, with Prophet Isa statues as a Prophet but I do contest with you the notion of understanding you have of Prophet Isa 

In regards to the doctrine of Ancestral Sin (Original Sin), there is many inconsistency and contradictions. 

ShiaMahamed,

Yes, I agree that sin is original, that is, it had an origin or beginning with Adam, through Satan; but once it was unleashed upon mankind, it became personal to every descendant of Adam. This is where judgment is just. Each man and woman is responsible for their actions based on their unrighteous sin nature, or upon their forgiveness and redemption through faith. However, God passed over the sins of ancient civilization, (I.e., those who perished in the flood), saving judgment until after the way of redemption had been made, through Jesus. This is why Jesus went and preached the good news of salvation through faith (belief, trust, clinging to) in Himself to those spirits--after He died (for them, also), and just before He rose from the dead.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. - 1 Peter 3:18-22

Our belief in Jesus, who interestingly never called Himself the Son of God (preferring "Son of Man"), but permitted others to call Him that, including God the Father...

16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." - Matthew 3:16-17

...is the entire sum of Christianity. We accept by faith that God became Man (without sin) and suffered and died in our place to satisfy His own righteous requirements for the debt of sin to be paid on our behalf. God forsook Himself in the person of Jesus on that ignoble cross and allowed Jesus to suffer the most shameful inglorious death in the history of mankind, to show the awfulness of sin and the enormity of His love for mankind. By putting our faith in Jesus, His death is credited to our sin account. And His righteousness is applied to our spirit for all eternity. Jesus' resurrection from the dead demonstrated that we also will be redeemed bodily, with glorified bodies, after our death, or when He returns in the clouds.

26 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the Earth to the ends of heaven. - Mark 13:26-27

Peace and grace,

MartyS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MartyS,

You are not explaining about Prophet Isa (عليه السلام), but rather you are discussing about Jesus Christ from Christianity perspective: while using the bible as an evidence and overlooking all the contradictions that Christianity has; discussion without logical understanding.

Does Trinity make sense or not?

Does Original Sin make sense or not?

In my previous post, I have said, "there is many inconsistency and contradictions in the doctrine of Ancestral Sin". And yet, you chose to ignore it and say "Yes, I agree that sin is original, that is, it had an origin or beginning with Adam, through Satan; but once it was unleashed upon mankind, it became personal to very descendent of Adam. This is where judgment is".  What? 

My point was, if you were to examine the doctrine of Ancestral Sin (Original Sin) it will prove that it is not the judgment of God. 

 

Anyways, I respect your determination, if you were to examine rather than deliver you understanding and read more about Prophet Isa ibn Maryam (عليه السلام) of Islam, then surely it will lead you to Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))

Prophet Muhammad's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) kindess, mercy, compassion and honesty cannot be ignored.  

 

Anyways, take care

Farewell,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/15/2019 at 3:02 AM, ShiaMahamed said:

Does Trinity make sense or not?

Does Original Sin make sense or not?

Blessings upon you, ShiaMahamed. What is sense? Is it truth? Is it understanding? Is it the mind of God? The Bible is for me the revelation of God throughout the history of mankind. Because I believe it is inspired by God, spoken through many Prophets and eye-witnesses, for me there is no inconsistency. I have not found any contradictions or inconsistencies therein. It confirms itself. Therefore, it explains my faith; and my faith affirms its truth.

I do not have any problem accepting the Trinity. I, myself am body, soul, and spirit. Part of me will die. Part of me will live forever. I accept that as truth, although I don't fully understand it now. I believe, as you do, that God is One. There are not any other gods beside Him. God has revealed Himself through His written Word, the Bible. He has manifested Himself in the personhood of Jesus the Son, who is the exact representation of the Father. God, through Jesus, is my Savior. God has demonstrated Himself by the power of His Holy Spirit, who indwells me and causes me to live for Him. These three manifestations of God are all God. These are truths to me. Yes, I defend them by the Bible. And I am not judged by any man.

Original sin, by any other name, is Sin. It describes living according to our fleshly desires rather than by the Spirit of God. It manifests itself through "sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these." (Galatians 5:19-21) We are all partakers in sin. Sin separates us from God for all eternity. It is what causes us to fear death. That is why when Jesus conquered sin, he overcame death. We no longer have to fear death or hell, because Jesus overcame them when He died on the cross. Jesus made a "spectacle" of Satan, who peddles sin and death. The word in the Bible for spectacle comes from the Greek word "theatrizo," which means to expose publicly. This happened when an enemy king was conquered and marched naked through the streets in humiliation. The final enemy conquered by Jesus is death. Jesus took away the "sting of death," which is sin.

50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 
55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Corinthians 15:50-57

Forgive me for using the Bible to explain what I believe. I believe it is God's truth given for me, fulfilled in His Son who died for me, revealed by His Holy Spirit who came to live in me when I put my faith, my trust, in Jesus.

On 5/15/2019 at 3:02 AM, ShiaMahamed said:

My point was, if you were to examine the doctrine of Ancestral Sin (Original Sin) it will prove that it is not the judgment of God. 

I agree. Sin is not God's judgment. Death is God's judgment. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. My point about sin is there is no difference between the first sin and every other sin. There is no big sin or little sin. There is only sin. The Bible tells me that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None of us is good enough to go to heaven and live in the presence of a perfect and holy God. Therefore, in His mercy and grace, God put our punishment, our judgment on His perfect Son and allowed Him to be our Eid ul-Adha. God sees me now atoned for  by the Holy Sacrifice of His perfect Lamb. He doesn't hold my sin against me. It is forgiven. And I am no longer a slave to sin. I am a servant of Jesus Christ. One day, Jesus will return the Kingdom to the Father, and God will be All in All.

Not farewell. Rather, peace and grace,

MartyS

Edited by MartyS
Correct origin of word

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/8/2019 at 6:46 AM, MartyS said:

Jesus did not deny equality with God, and yet He is in subjection to God The Father. This makes Him a co-regent with The Father who is also under The Father's authority. But Jesus is much more than a Prophet. Therefore, it is acceptable to address Him as Lord. And yes, He died; but He is alive forevermore, which makes Him eternal in the future. And as the Word of God, He was present at the beginning of creation. Therefore He is eternal past. Many blessings and great peace during this time of Ramadan, descendant of Abraham and Ishmael. Your relative, grafted in to the family of Abraham, by faith in Jesus,

Why the paradoxes?

How about,

Jesus is in subjection to God the Father, therefore Jesus is not equal with God. How can a subject of God be equal with God?

A coregency or co-principality is the situation where a monarchical position (such as king, queen, emperor or empress), normally held by only a single person, is held by two or more.

Jesus is under the Father's authority, therefore Jesus cannot be a co-regent with God. He can, however, act in-line with whatever authority God gives him (this does not mean he exercises his own independent authority because as you stated he is under the Father's authority).

If Jesus died, he died, he is not alive. To say he died but is alive forevermore is already the 3rd paradox. Perhaps define death in case it has different meaning to you...

Let us say Jesus was present before anything else was created, how can you conclude his past is eternal, for surely the Father was present before Jesus? Meaning Jesus had a beginning because the Father was present before His Word?

Thank you for the peace and blessings!

All the best to you as well!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/16/2019 at 8:55 AM, MartyS said:

The Bible says the wages of sin is death.

Hi we don’t see death as punishment but some sins like as insulting or killing  parents  or drinking Alcohol , saying lies about Prophets & Imams or spreading injustice & etc  can lead to shortening life span  & even  immediate death but Qur'an challenges Jews & says if you say truth & you are favorite or chooses people of Allah/God then ask death from him but because you say lie you won’t request death from Allah/God that through teachings of Paul the fear of death as punishment inserted from Jewish belief to Christianity ,that only people that really wished deathfrom Allah/God were our Imams (عليه السلام) like as Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) Rushed to his death while he had opportunity to save his life by choosing another ways .

Say (unto them): If the abode of the Hereafter in the providence of Allah is indeed for you alone and not for others of mankind (as ye pretend), then long for death (for ye must long for death) if ye are truthful. (94

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/2:94

28. When you have to depart from this world and have to meet death (eventually), then why wish delay (why feel nervous about death).

Do not be among those who are not satisfied if they get more in life and are not content if their lot in life's pleasures is less (they are never satisfied), who never thank Allah for what they get and keep on constantly demanding increase in what is left with them; who advise others to such good deeds that they themselves refrain from; who appreciate good people but do not follow their ways of life; who hate bad and vicious people but follow their ways of life; who, on account of their excessive sins hate death but do not give up the sinful ways of life; 

Similarly, doubt has also four aspects absurd reasoning; fear; vacillation and hesitation; and unreasonable surrender to infidelity, because one who has accustomed himself to unreasonable and absurd discussions will never see the Light of Truth and will always live in the darkness of ignorance. One who is afraid to face facts (of life, death and the life after death) will always turn away from ultimate reality, one who allows doubts and uncertainties to vacillate him will always be under the control of Satan and one who surrenders himself to infidelity accepts damnation in both the worlds.

Blessed is the man who always kept the life after death in his view, who remembered the Day of Judgment through all his deeds, who led a contented life and who was happy with the lot that Allah had destined for him. 45. If I cut a faithful Muslim into pieces to make him hate me, he will not turn into my enemy and if I give all the wealth of this world to a hypocrite to make him my friend he will not befriend me. It is so because the Holy Prophet has said: " O ‘Ali! No faithful Muslim will ever be your enemy and no hypocrite will ever be your friend.

https://www.al-Islam.org/articles/various-sayings-Imam-Ali-ibn-abi-talib-Imam-Ali-ibn-Abu-talib

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/19/2019 at 1:33 PM, dragonxx said:

Jesus is in subjection to God the Father, therefore Jesus is not equal with God. How can a subject of God be equal with God?

A coregency or co-principality is the situation where a monarchical position (such as king, queen, emperor or empress), normally held by only a single person, is held by two or more.

Jesus is under the Father's authority, therefore Jesus cannot be a co-regent with God. He can, however, act in-line with whatever authority God gives him (this does not mean he exercises his own independent authority because as you stated he is under the Father's authority).

Hi, Dragonxx,

Thank you for your analogy of a ruling monarch. I would like to add to this analogy that the King has a Son, who is entrusted by the King with ruling the Kingdom when His Father is absent. The Son has all of the authority of the King to rule over all the King's subjects because the King has placed all except Himself in subjection to His Son. One day, however, the Son will return the Kingdom and its subjects to His Father, and God will be all in all. This is why we worship Jesus, as unto the Father. This is why a Christian woman is subject to her husband's authority in the family, as unto God. I'm not sure I consider Jesus to be God's equal, but They are the same God. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. Likewise, the Holy Spirit of God knows the mind of God, just as my spirit knows my mind--they are both me. God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the One True God. And there is no God beside Him.

Dragonxx, you also said...

"If Jesus died, he died, he is not alive. To say he died but is alive forevermore is already the 3rd paradox. Perhaps define death in case it has different meaning to you..."

My understanding of what you say is that Jesus must be either dead or alive. If that were true, then there would be no resurrection of the dead and my faith would be in vain. But--because I believe Jesus' mortal human life, in His fleshly body, died; was buried; and rose to life again with a glorified body, from the dead, on the third day--I believe I, too, will die; be buried; and rise again with a glorified body like Jesus has! (Note: The disciples even reported that Jesus' glorified body has nail holes in His hands and feet from the cross!)

I am further quoting you, my friend...

"Let us say Jesus was present before anything else was created, how can you conclude his past is eternal, for surely the Father was present before Jesus? Meaning Jesus had a beginning because the Father was present before His Word?"

The Bible teaches me that in The Beginning, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. I cannot say what transpired before The Beginning. But this was 1,000's of years before Jesus was born as the son of the virgin Mary. Some things may not be meant to be understood in this lifetime. But I trust that in the next lifetime, we will understand all things. Perhaps we will be surprised by all we had in common--in spite of our misunderstandings!

I enjoy our dialogue, Dragonxx. And I learn from you.

Peace and grace,

MartyS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/19/2019 at 2:26 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi we don’t see death as punishment 

Hi, Ashvazdanghe,

I understand. We don't either. For me, to live is Christ; but to die is gain. I agree...

On 5/19/2019 at 2:26 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

28. When you have to depart from this world and have to meet death (eventually), then why wish delay (why feel nervous about death).

We know that physical death will come to us all, and it is not to be feared. But spiritual death will be eternal separation from God, the "second death." I believe that we share a love for Revelation...

Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. - Revelation 20:6

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:14-15

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

Grace and peace,

MartyS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, MartyS said:

We know that physical death will come to us all, and it is not to be feared. But spiritual death will be eternal separation from God, the "second death." I believe that we share a love for Revelation...

hi we don't believe to second death but we believe people in hell will suffer with physical body that will burn or torture in different ways & their body destroys but  rebuilds to experience all punishment again & again  so they will be in eternal separation from God/Allah mercy with experiencing every type of torture again & again and will eat worst type of foods that hurts them that is another type of punishment  & people in paradise will be with best type of their body that will never destroy or fill harm that Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) said to question a Christian about eating in paradise & how people will digest food and their body will become ready for next meal that Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) said after digesting heavenly food in Paradise it comes out body with sweating & people can eat again.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/20/2019 at 11:09 PM, MartyS said:

Hi, Dragonxx,

Thank you for your analogy of a ruling monarch. I would like to add to this analogy that the King has a Son, who is entrusted by the King with ruling the Kingdom when His Father is absent. The Son has all of the authority of the King to rule over all the King's subjects because the King has placed all except Himself in subjection to His Son. One day, however, the Son will return the Kingdom and its subjects to His Father, and God will be all in all. This is why we worship Jesus, as unto the Father. This is why a Christian woman is subject to her husband's authority in the family, as unto God. I'm not sure I consider Jesus to be God's equal, but They are the same God. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. Likewise, the Holy Spirit of God knows the mind of God, just as my spirit knows my mind--they are both me. God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the One True God. And there is no God beside Him.

Alhamdulilah, 

This whole analogy above is why Muslims and polytheistic Christians will always differ. You are not a monotheistic Christian based on this entire analogy. You are contradicting yourself by this entire analogy.  You are trying to appeal to Muslims by saying you are monotheistic while believing in your analogy above.

And you still haven’t responded to the link below about the Christian trinity originating from Babylonian pagan religion thousands of years before Christ. You are responding to everything except this.  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/romecorruptedchristianity.wordpress.com/2013/07/02/nimrods-family-created-God-the-father-and-God-the-son/amp/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

And you still haven’t responded to the link below about the Christian trinity originating from Babylonian pagan religion thousands of years before Christ. You are responding to everything except this.  

Greetings AbdulKarim,

Please forgive me for not responding earlier to your link. We probably agree that pagan religions began sometime after God created the angels (including Satan) and the world and Adam and Eve. The founder of these pagan religions was Satan. He knew the truth about God, but he lied about God. He is called the father of lies. He lied to Eve in the garden about God and he has been lying to mankind about God ever since. Pagan religions are a counterfeit of the truth. In other words, Satan put out his twisted version of the true nature of God, especially the triune nature of His diety, in order to deceive mankind. God is Satan's enemy. We are pawns in the battle between God and Satan. Satan's main goal is to deceive mankind about God. The Bible says God the creator, The Word, and the Holy Spirit were present "In the Beginning." (Note: God said, "Let US make man in OUR image.) So Satan was knowledgeable about God's triune nature before he concocted the Babylonian pagan religion trinity hoax, which preceded the birth of Jesus by 1,000's of years. I think Satan is so believable because he masterfully takes a little bit of truth and distorts it grotesquely. His purpose is to rob, kill and destroy mankind, created in God's image, the ones for whom God made a way to be forgiven. Satan has no such way; therefore, he hates us.

Peace and grace,

MartyS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/21/2019 at 11:59 PM, MartyS said:

He lied to Eve in the garden about God and he has been lying to mankind about God ever since.

we believe he lied to both of them 

On 5/21/2019 at 11:59 PM, MartyS said:

The Bible says God the creator, The Word, and the Holy Spirit were present "In the Beginning

Qur'an says it was only Allah/God was present in the beginning 

On 5/21/2019 at 11:59 PM, MartyS said:

God is Satan's enemy

Satan is enemy of mankind but he worshiped Allah/God more than a group of angles 

On 5/21/2019 at 11:59 PM, MartyS said:

We are pawns in the battle between God and Satan

they are not in war because Satan has nothing against him but he obviously our enemy 

On 5/21/2019 at 11:59 PM, MartyS said:

Note: God said, "Let US make man in OUR image

nothing can resemble Allah/God even man 

On 5/21/2019 at 11:59 PM, MartyS said:

So Satan was knowledgeable about God's triune nature before he concocted the Babylonian pagan religion trinity hoax

nothing can understand Allah/God nature but he clearly said in Holy Qur'an that any trinity is false so it just came from Satan to deceive people

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/21/2019 at 11:59 PM, MartyS said:

Greetings AbdulKarim,

Please forgive me for not responding earlier to your link. We probably agree that pagan religions began sometime after God created the angels (including Satan) and the world and Adam and Eve. The founder of these pagan religions was Satan. He knew the truth about God, but he lied about God. He is called the father of lies. He lied to Eve in the garden about God and he has been lying to mankind about God ever since. Pagan religions are a counterfeit of the truth. In other words, Satan put out his twisted version of the true nature of God, especially the triune nature of His diety, in order to deceive mankind. God is Satan's enemy. We are pawns in the battle between God and Satan. Satan's main goal is to deceive mankind about God. The Bible says God the creator, The Word, and the Holy Spirit were present "In the Beginning." (Note: God said, "Let US make man in OUR image.) So Satan was knowledgeable about God's triune nature before he concocted the Babylonian pagan religion trinity hoax, which preceded the birth of Jesus by 1,000's of years. I think Satan is so believable because he masterfully takes a little bit of truth and distorts it grotesquely. His purpose is to rob, kill and destroy mankind, created in God's image, the ones for whom God made a way to be forgiven. Satan has no such way; therefore, he hates us.

Peace and grace,

MartyS

Quote

We probably agree that pagan religions began sometime after God created the angels (including Satan) and the world and Adam and Eve.

No, we don’t agree that Satan is an angel, Angels are incapable of rebelling against God. Satan is a jinn, which is another species that has free will like that of man in believing in something other than Allah. The roots of all pagan religions including trinity religions, stem from the trinity of Nimrod. The Egyptians, Greeks, Hindus, and the Roman’s as well as others also used the trinity. Your religion which is pagan Christianity shares its roots with all other pagan religions. Abrahamic religions are monotheistic. Your religion which is trinity based, is from Abraham’s enemy, Nimrod who opposed God after the flood of Nuh. Nimrod was an avowed enemy of God. 

Quote

Satan put out his twisted version of the true nature of God

Yes, You are correct. So if Abrahamic religions are monotheistic with out trinity, this means that your version of Christianity is a twisted version of what true Christianity truly represents because true Christianity is also an Abrahamic religion and all Abrahamic religions are monotheistic. Meaning there is only a one God presence in which there is no image, people, or other deities involved. 

Quote

We are pawns in the battle between God and Satan. Satan's main goal is to deceive mankind about God.

Alhamdulilah, we are not pawns. Allah created humans for a purpose to worship him and be a vicegerent on Earth. This means that Adam was going to come to Earth anyway regardless of what happened in the garden of bliss. God is not in a battle with Satan. He doesn’t have any power to even battle God. He was granted by God the ability to be close to humans and to be on Earth until the end of the Earth. He will be immediately thrown into hell fire after his time expires. Those who follow him such as the disbelievers in God oneness will also be in hell fire for eternity.  

Quote

 (Note: God said, "Let US make man in OUR image.)

Allah is the creator and the only creator. When Allah creates, he needs no assistance. When Allah creates he needs no approval. Allah is without image and doesn’t not have any image that humans could possibly comprehend or forge in their minds. God was never a man entrapped in a body to be an image. Having such a belief that God was entrapped inside a man goes against true monotheistic abrahamic belief  of one God and is thus deemed pagan like all other pagan religions started during Nimrods time. It is a deception by Satan and his evil jinn and men accomplices. 

Quote

I think Satan is so believable because he masterfully takes a little bit of truth and distorts it

So now I hope you understand the difference between monotheistic Christianity and pagan Christianity. Monotheistic Christians share their roots with Muslim and Islam. Polytheistic or pagan Christians share their roots from Ancient Babylonian pagan human and idol worship. It’s falsehood. 

Your type of Christianity which promotes enjoining Jesus as part of being God in a trinity system has been masterfully infused Under the notion of being one of the three Abrahamic religions. This is far from the truth! Satan, like you said has taken the truth and distorted it and his followers have spread it.

True Monotheistic Christians only believe Jesus to be a major Prophet like all the other Prophets such as Adam, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, David, Solomon, Moses, and Muhammad. All of those Prophets represented one God. No where in the Bible do these other Prophets testify to worshipping Jesus or a trinity involving Jesus. 

So you see Marty, at the moment your verbal and written beliefs don’t match us. Muslims, monotheistic Christians and monotheistic Hebrews share the same true belief of the oneness of God. We don’t identify with anything you say in relation to who God is because we believe it to be pagan corrupted. 

If you come here and deliver to us Bible passages from which ever many editions of the Bible’s that exist and have been distorted over time it will not change any of our faith. We follow the Qur'an which has never been distorted and upholds the monotheistic belief in one God that all the other holy books intended to do. The injeel or original book and teachings of Jesus doesn’t teach paganism or trinity and self worship of Jesus. This is falsehood. 

The Torah doesn’t teach the worship of Jesus and pagan trinity of human or idol worship as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/22/2019 at 4:19 PM, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

The injeel or original book and teachings of Jesus doesn’t teach paganism or trinity and self worship of Jesus. 

Greetings, AbdulKarim,

Can you explain to me what you consider to be the Injeel or original book and teachings of Jesus? Thank you very kindly!

MartyS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MartyS said:

Greetings, AbdulKarim,

Can you explain to me what you consider to be the Injeel or original book and teachings of Jesus? Thank you very kindly!

MartyS

Alhamdulilah, 

Hey Marty! Hope all is well. :bye:

I just wanted to show you the true difference between True abrahamic principle and Trinity Christianity. If trinity Christianity is your thing, it’s all biscuits and gravy and I’m not trying to argue against you. Honestly, Only God knows who his true believers are no matter where they are in life. As for the injeel ask Those who are more knowledgeable. I’m no longer in the business of debating and answering questions on here. I’m just a Bill sitting on Capitol Hill. Take my friend :bye:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/11/2019 at 12:53 AM, ShiaMahamed said:

In regards to the doctrine of Ancestral Sin (Original Sin), there is many inconsistency and contradictions. 

What do you see as at least some of the inconsistencies and contradictions with Christian doctrines of Original Sin?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/13/2019 at 5:27 AM, MartyS said:

Yes, I agree that sin is original, that is, it had an origin or beginning with Adam, through Satan; but once it was unleashed upon mankind, it became personal to every descendant of Adam.

Hi Marty,

I agree with you on the origin of sin and believed sin just continued but in reading a little deeper I tend to believe it wasn't "original sin" that was carried on but the consequences of the original sin. The original sin was forgiven, but the damage was done. There is a good chance the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not pure, not suitable for their pure bodies, thus making a noticeable, physical change. I was taught that it was guilt that made them notice they were naked, but am sure it was a transformation from pure to impure that caused them to become naked. 
There are no contradictions in the story, just differences in speculation. Another argument is about the "coats of skins" God gave them. Did God kill animals to make coats , (making the first life sacrifice), or did He cause them to grow an epidermis? Maybe you've heard other versions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

Another argument is about the "coats of skins" God gave them. Did God kill animals to make coats , (making the first life sacrifice), or did He cause them to grow an epidermis

Hmm...very thought provoking! Thanks for mentioning this!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Hi Marty,

I agree with you on the origin of sin and believed sin just continued but in reading a little deeper I tend to believe it wasn't "original sin" that was carried on but the consequences of the original sin. The original sin was forgiven, but the damage was done. There is a good chance the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not pure, not suitable for their pure bodies, thus making a noticeable, physical change. I was taught that it was guilt that made them notice they were naked, but am sure it was a transformation from pure to impure that caused them to become naked. 
There are no contradictions in the story, just differences in speculation. Another argument is about the "coats of skins" God gave them. Did God kill animals to make coats , (making the first life sacrifice), or did He cause them to grow an epidermis? Maybe you've heard other versions.

Very interesting points. Would love to hear some Shia insight from some here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...