Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
MartyS

Is this not the Judgment of God?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Warm greetings!

I have pondered the question, How does Jesus save us? I believe His death on the cross paid the penalty for my sins, which cancelled my debt to God, makes me forgiven, sets me free. But there is more. He said of Himself...

"I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment-what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me." - John 12:46-50

Peace and blessings!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, MartyS said:

I believe His death on the cross paid the penalty for my sins, which cancelled my debt to God, makes me forgiven, sets me free. 

The problem with this, is there is no longer any incentive or deterrence against sinning.

It's as if one has a pre-paid ticket to heaven, and no matter what ill, sickening, vile, debaucherous evils mankind is capable of - as we see each day....it is all good, because Jesus has died for our sins of the past, our current wrong doing and any we carry out in future.

Christianity unlike Judaism and Islam is arguably anarchic, there is no law as such, thanks to Paul.

One can literally do as they please, they do not even have to pray. Just accept Jesus dying for their sins.

It goes against the Old Testament of not passing the buck onto others or being answerable for the actions of others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, MartyS said:

"I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment-what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me." - John 12:46-50

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. 

(5:116)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

The problem with this, is there is no longer any incentive or deterrence against sinning.

It's as if one has a pre-paid ticket to heaven, and no matter what ill, sickening, vile, debaucherous evils mankind is capable of - as we see each day....it is all good, because Jesus has died for our sins of the past, our current wrong doing and any we carry out in future.

Christianity unlike Judaism and Islam is arguably anarchic, there is no law as such, thanks to Paul.

One can literally do as they please, they do not even have to pray. Just accept Jesus dying for their sins.

It goes against the Old Testament of not passing the buck onto others or being answerable for the actions of others.

Propaganda of the Deed,

Thank you. This is a very good argument. But the other side of salvation by grace and not by works is that once we have been forgiven we now have God's seed, His Spirit living within us and we do not want to sin any longer. And for the first time in our lives, we have the strength of God to resist the temptations of the world, the enemy, and our flesh to sin.

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. - 1 John 3:4-10

Many blessings,

Marty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. 

(5:116)

Thank you, PoD. I have never been taught that Jesus claimed Mary was diety. I agree that would be shirk to give any lesser person equal status with God. We do not believe there are three Gods. When we speak about the Trinity, we are looking at the character of God: God the Creator, God the Redeemer, and God the Counselor.

18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on Earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." - Matthew 28:18-20

Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? - John 14:9

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. - John 14:16-17

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. - John 16:13

Blessings and peace to you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

The problem with this, is there is no longer any incentive or deterrence against sinning.

It's as if one has a pre-paid ticket to heaven, and no matter what ill, sickening, vile, debaucherous evils mankind is capable of - as we see each day....it is all good, because Jesus has died for our sins of the past, our current wrong doing and any we carry out in future.

Christianity unlike Judaism and Islam is arguably anarchic, there is no law as such, thanks to Paul.

One can literally do as they please, they do not even have to pray. Just accept Jesus dying for their sins.

It goes against the Old Testament of not passing the buck onto others or being answerable for the actions of others.

Yes, some "Christians" believe that but that is not the view of mainstream Christians. Catholics believe one must do various deeds and penance to go to heaven. Many Protestants, especially those who are Methodist or Pentecostal, believe that sinning can cut you off from the grace of God and send you to hell (unless you sincerely repent of that sin and do the right things again). Calvinists, who believe in predestination, say that a truly redeemed person will not go on sinning with impunity. There are some fringe groups, especially among the fundamentalists, that say that one can just say a prayer to Jesus and he will give them a free ticket to heaven while they can go on sinning without any eternal consequences. But then again, those are minority in Christianity. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

The problem with this, is there is no longer any incentive or deterrence against sinning.

It's as if one has a pre-paid ticket to heaven, and no matter what ill, sickening, vile, debaucherous evils mankind is capable of - as we see each day....it is all good, because Jesus has died for our sins of the past, our current wrong doing and any we carry out in future.

Christianity unlike Judaism and Islam is arguably anarchic, there is no law as such, thanks to Paul. 

One can literally do as they please, they do not even have to pray. Just accept Jesus dying for their sins.

It goes against the Old Testament of not passing the buck onto others or being answerable for the actions of others.

There is a big difference between the Bible and Christian theology. In the New Testament Jesus speaks several times of those who will be cast into the fire, though not nearly as much as the Qur'an does. The sermon on the mount is very explicit and of cause Revelation speaks clearly about the lake of fire though that is not in the words of Jesus. In these places there is no doubt that it is the sinner, the evildoers who go there.
In the Old Testament (or the Torah) there is no mention of hellfire. The concept of Hell, yet only like the Catholic purgatory, was "retrofitted" into mainstream Rabbinic Judaism well after Christianity came about. There is punishment in the Torah, but the punishment is in this life. Soddom and Gomora (the people of Lut) was hit in this life by fire from the sky. The word Gehanna begin to appear in fringe Jewish texts in the 1st century BCE and the description resemble that of the Greek Tartarus. A valley with a river of fire at the bottom where the wicked is punished. (Yes Greek Mythology had punishment by fire in the afterlife. A testament to the fact that religions that are otherwise Shirk has preserved parts of the original message.) The name "Gehanna" was according to tradition either a place where the inhabitants of Jerusalem burned their garbage and where the Kings of Jerusalem use to sacrifice the children they had with pagan women.
Paul did not abolish the law completely. Only the rules regarding what is allowed to eat and what clothe to wear. Other sins such as Idolatry, vanity, greed and so on he Kept. Paul did say in the Corinthians that "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day (of judgement) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, MartyS said:

Warm greetings!

I have pondered the question, How does Jesus save us? I believe His death on the cross paid the penalty for my sins, which cancelled my debt to God, makes me forgiven, sets me free.

Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) saved many people from further going astray by calling them back to the pure, uncorrupted, monotheistic religion, that is Islam. He, as other Prophets, called upon people to completely submit themselves to what was originally revealed, not what they came to believe were the teachings. 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ), the creator of entire universe, can’t and doesn’t have any family; it is illogical and insulting, simply limiting the omnipotence of His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) being. He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) can forgive all the sins within seconds, therefore there is no need for Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) to cause anyone (in Christian understanding, it was himself!) to die for anyone else’s sins. Let’s not also forget that the mainstream Christian concept of trinity is not even found in the Bible, and as majority of Christian theology, it is one of the dogmas developed over hundreds of years at the ecumenical councils (325, 381, 431, 451, 553, 680-681, 754, 787 et al.). Christianity as a religion, just keeps adding or removing things from its dogma, and this in itself is the simplest reason to reject it altogether. 

The very early “Christians”, never believed in Jesus (عليه السلام) being the “Son of God” nor “God the Son.” For example, the First Council of Nicaea (325) declared that Jesus (عليه السلام) is "homoousios (ὁμοούσιον) with the Father" (of the same substance and being as “the Father”), practically before that, Jesus (عليه السلام) was treated by mainstream Christians as the Prophet of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ), and not one, conjoined entity. The concept of Jesus (عليه السلام) “being one” with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) “in substance” was entirely stolen and adopted into the mainstream Christian belief from the Gnostics. Before the 2nd century CE, there are no traces of any Christian believing in such dogma - for more, see Kelly, John Norman D (1972), Early Christian Creeds (3d ed.), London: Longman, p. 245.

Quote

But there is more. He said of Himself...

The modern day Torah (Old Testament) and the New Testament, in its entirety “the Bible”, are corrupted and nowhere close to what was originally revealed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) to all his Muslims. Jews and Christians removed and added things over years, with the New Testament being the prime example of that, where at times Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) calls Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) his father, refers to both in the first person (as if they are one), or calls Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) his Lord and God. The illogical fallacies applied are out there clearly visible for those who seek the truth, are formally or self educated and use their brains to analyse the simplest of the presented facts. 

Edited by OrthodoxTruth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, MartyS said:

I have pondered the question, How does Jesus save us? I believe His death on the cross paid the penalty for my sins, which cancelled my debt to God, makes me forgiven, sets me free. 

Hello Marty

This site has been around for almost twenty years and we have had this topic up here literally hundreds of times. 

It has even come up a number of times in the recent past.

It is also probably being discussed and debated in squillions of sites all over the Internet.

So I suggest that we lay it to rest for a while. 

It is not going to change anyone's mind. 

And if we use our brains, it is not difficult to see that it CANNOT be true.

Jesus' death just cannot save anyone.

The only things that can save one are - (a) divine compassion, (b) intercession by Jesus, for example and (c) the balance between one's own good deeds and bad. 

Or if one's good deeds are excessive, they may suffice, and (a) and (b) may not be required.

But intercession alone is extremely unlikely to save anyone. 

I tend to agree more with Christian Visitor who seems to have a somewhat different view.

9 hours ago, MartyS said:

"I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 

Believing and then sinning is probably worse than Not Believing and sinning.

Because if you believe, you must follow Jesus' words.

However, it is just possible that if a non-believer's disbelief is deemed forgivable, his sins may also be forgiven.

But a believer may have less of a chance, since he should have known better - that sin is forbidden.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, MartyS said:

I believe His death on the cross paid the penalty for my sins, which cancelled my debt to God, makes me forgiven, sets me free.

Well. At least you are testifying Jesus is not God. Great first step.

Now try to figure out why another human's death would cancel sins to God that didn't even exist at the time of the Jesus' death. Good luck. (hint, the answer has to do with the concept of justice, where every human is accountable for their own actions).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, MartyS said:

Propaganda of the Deed,

Thank you. This is a very good argument. But the other side of salvation by grace and not by works is that once we have been forgiven we now have God's seed, His Spirit living within us and we do not want to sin any longer. And for the first time in our lives, we have the strength of God to resist the temptations of the world, the enemy, and our flesh to sin.

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. - 1 John 3:4-10

Many blessings,

Marty

Marty, I understand what you are saying.  And may God bless you for having the faith that have.  

Marty, just a quick question though.  Would you say that you are living a sinless life because by you being a Christian and accepting Jesus you consider yourself abiding in Him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As Muslims we have to believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) but of course we do not believe various other things that certain Christians believe about him. However he will return to disprove those Christians and pray behind the Madhi (may Allah subhana wa tala hasten his reappearance) to unite Muslims and Christians. I think him praying behind the Mahdi (may Allah subhanan wa talal hasten his reappearance) is a very powerful statement and then Christians would accept Islam inshalah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Marty, I understand what you are saying.  And may God bless you for having the faith that have.  

Marty, just a quick question though.  Would you say that you are living a sinless life because by you being a Christian and accepting Jesus you consider yourself abiding in Him?

Thank you for calling me out on this question. No, I am not sinless. Even though I believe I am clean in God's sight (through no good works of my own) and I consider myself to abide in Jesus, my understanding is that sanctification is an ongoing process until I die and Jesus will keep me until that day. Until then, I am prone to sin, because sin dwells within me, and I must repent! In Revelation--which records the revelation of Jesus (given to Him by God to show things that would soon take place), who then gave it (through His angel) in a vision to His beloved disciple John, who was in exile on the island of Patmos--Jesus makes it clear in chapters 2 and 3 that works matter. He directs John to write letters to seven churches in Asia, rebuking them for their sins of which they had not repented. They included: works without love; false teaching; living among evil; tolerating immorality and idolatry; works not complete; being lukewarm; believing they were alive when they were dead; and believing they were rich when they were wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked. Jesus admonished them to: repent; remember their first love; be faithful unto death; hold fast until Jesus comes; keep His works until the end; remember and keep what they received and heard; wake up (I will come like a thief and you will not know when); and to buy gold, refined by fire, white garments and salve to anoint their eyes. To one church, Jesus warned to repent or He would war against them with the sword of His mouth. He warned the followers of Jezebel in Rev. 2:20-23 of sickness, great tribulation and the death of their children. To yet another, He stated that He reproves and disciplines those He loves; be zealous and repent. "I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and eat with him, and he with me." Jesus' promises to those, at every church, who conquer include: to eat of the Tree of Life in the paradise of God; a crown of life; not to be hurt by the second death; a white stone with a new name; hidden manna; authority over nations; the Morning Star; to be clothed in white; their name not blotted out from the Book of Life and their name confessed before the Father and His angels; to be a pillar in the temple of God, to never go out of it; to have written on him the name of God, the City of God, and Jesus' own new name; and to sit with Jesus on His throne.

 

Edited by MartyS
Clarification of Rev. 2:16, 20-23

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, MartyS said:

Thank you for calling me out on this question. No, I am not sinless. Even though I believe I am clean in God's sight (through no good works of my own) and I consider myself to abide in Jesus, my understanding is that sanctification is an ongoing process until I die and Jesus will keep me until that day. Until then, I am prone to sin, because sin dwells within me, and I must repent! In Revelation--which records the revelation of Jesus (given to Him by God to show things that would soon take place), who then gave it (through His angel) in a vision to His beloved disciple John, who was in exile on the island of Patmos--Jesus makes it clear in chapters 2 and 3 that works matter. He directs John to write letters to seven churches in Asia, rebuking them for their sins of which they had not repented. They included: works without love; false teaching; living among evil; tolerating immorality and idolatry; works not complete; being lukewarm; believing they were alive when they were dead; and believing they were rich when they were wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked. Jesus admonished them to: repent; remember their first love; be faithful unto death; hold fast until Jesus comes; keep His works until the end; remember and keep what they received and heard; wake up (I will come like a thief and you will not know when); and to buy gold, refined by fire, white garments and salve to anoint their eyes. To one church, Jesus warned to repent or He would war against them with the sword of His mouth. He warned the followers of Jezebel in Rev. 2:20-23 of sickness, great tribulation and the death of their children. To yet another, He stated that He reproves and disciplines those He loves; be zealous and repent. "I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and eat with him, and he with me." Jesus' promises to those, at every church, who conquer include: to eat of the Tree of Life in the paradise of God; a crown of life; not to be hurt by the second death; a white stone with a new name; hidden manna; authority over nations; the Morning Star; to be clothed in white; their name not blotted out from the Book of Life and their name confessed before the Father and His angels; to be a pillar in the temple of God, to never go out of it; to have written on him the name of God, the City of God, and Jesus' own new name; and to sit with Jesus on His throne.

 

Marty, 

I’m a little lost as to if your trying to gain some perspective about your religion or Islam or if you are just trying to spread the word to Muslims who don’t worship Jesus? If I was trying to become Christian and Alhamdulilah I’m not..I would be extremely confused by all that stuff you wrote up there. This is why I love Islam, because of the simplistic direct deposit message. And why does Sin still dwell within you if Jesus died for your sins already? Did it not work the first time? What’s the need to repent if Jesus already died for everybody's sins? I think I would want my money back. Shouldn't it  be smooth sailing From there on out? Do you believe Jesus is the son of God or do you believe he is God or all three Gods in one body and flesh? Do you believe Jesus is brown skin hewbrew or British/French like most of the pictures depicted around the world? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...