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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Salam,

Do you treat your marjas as infallible or are you aware that they make mistakes and teach things that are wrong at times? Are you aware that our ideas of Islam could be wrong and what we are taught is full of shortcomings? Feel free to share your experience where you yourself found out that you were wrong about something in Islam, or s great scholar who admitted a mistake in their beliefs. I used to believe - like so many Islamic scholars - that all Prophets friends were great, then I changed my mind about it, and had not problem admitting it. 

I believe that a good scholar is a person who admits that they are imperfect and who are not afraid to learn, develop, evolve, and change their opinions about things. 

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6 minutes ago, memoryblack said:

only the Prophets and Ahlul Bayt are infallible

Personally I disagree but that is not part of this discussion in a direct sense. I know that my opinion on this is at odds with 99.9% of the community here.

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Walaykum as salam, 

Nobody considers marājiʿ to be infallible in the sense of the Fourteen ma‘ṣūmūn or the Prophets, but they are a bridge between us and the Imams during the time of ghayba. We follow the mujtahids on the fiqh issues because let’s be honest, people left alone without a clear guidance on furu al-din usually cause corruption and mischief. There are people who reach the stage of ijtihad and follow their own rulings, I.e. they are knowledgeable enough to derive the laws by themselves, but they are in extremely small minority. By the way, this is a solid argument against Wahhabism and their rejection of taqlid. As a Usulis, we take ijtihad to be a part of al-wajib al-kifa'I, therefore the marājiʿ have very purposeful role in our Ummah. I remember debating once an Akhbari from Pakistan who told me we shouldn’t do taqlid to marja’. Once I asked him how he derives sharia laws on everyday life, for example if the perfumes he uses are halal because they contain alcohol, he told me laughably that he consults his auntie on the issues he isn’t sure of. Subhanallah, that’s a case of full infallibility right there. 

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@OrthodoxTruth and @ali_fatheroforphans

Did you ever think about what the Marjas teaching you in a more critical sense? Most of the time they don’t share the Qur'an/ hadith reasoning behind their rulings. Maybe they are wrong about more than 1%. Did you ever hear about a scholar who realized something that contradicts his past beliefs? 

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4 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

@OrthodoxTruth and @ali_fatheroforphans

Did you ever think about what the Marjas teaching you in a more critical sense? Most of the time they don’t share the Qur'an/ hadith reasoning behind their rulings. Maybe they are wrong about more than 1%. Did you ever hear about a scholar who realized something that contradicts his past beliefs? 

We could however think they do less mistakes than us.

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3 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

The main problem of our time is the raising of ayatollah made in google.

Every Marja, every scholar is a unique case in front of God. Impossible to generalise, and we should be alert to hypocrisy even among our own creed. Also remember aya Allah is sign of Allah, including verses in the Qur'an. The sun and moon and we ourselves are ayat. Nobody has a claim to monopolize those terms. You and I are also signs of God. 

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1 minute ago, 313 Seeker said:

Every Marja, every scholar is a unique case in front of God. Impossible to generalise, and we should be alert to hypocrisy even among our own creed. Also remember aya Allah is sign of Allah, including verses in the Qur'an. The sun and moon and we ourselves are ayat. Nobody has a claim to monopolize those terms. You and I are also signs of God. 

I was in fact sarcastic and talking about people coming from nowhere and saying in internet that they have probably more knowledges that some marjas who studed Islam all their lifes.

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46 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

Most of the time they don’t share the Qur'an/ hadith reasoning behind their rulings. Maybe they are wrong about more than 1%.

They do have a book which explains the reasoning behind every rule, however the books are in Arabic and are in volumes.

That's what I've heard. The English books we use are simplified.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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22 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

I was in fact sarcastic and talking about people coming from nowhere and saying in internet that they have probably more knowledges that some marjas who studed Islam all their lifes.

Well this can happen. For instant a wahabi scholar studying all his life could be wrong about things while a 7 year old girl on the internet could be right about it. 

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3 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

They do have a book which explains the reasoning behind every rule, however the books are in Arabic.

That's what I've heard.

Interesting mystery book. In my opinion  their public opinions shouldn't be detached from immediate reasoning from Qur'an and hadiths. 

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14 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

In my opinion  their public opinions shouldn't be detached from immediate reasoning from Qur'an and hadiths

I don't think it's possible to provide the entire reasoning for every rule. People generally aren't interested in how a ruling is derived. Neither do they have the knowledge needed to understand the derivation. For example, many people do not have an understanding of the system of grading of hadith or ilm al rijal, specially somewhat less relegious people. So it's going to be very complicated and beyond the understanding of a common man to understand how a ruling is derived. 

 

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2 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

and change their opinions about things. 

Please elaborate what do you mean by "things" here? Are you talking about religious rulings here? For newly evolved things they do ijtihaad.

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37 minutes ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

We are not talking about wahabis but about Shia marjas.

Scholars of Islam who all think they are right about everything, while they might be about some things and wrong about others. Shia like Muslim is just a name but no guarantee. 

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3 hours ago, ahlulbayt_72 said:

I don't think it's possible to provide the entire reasoning for every rule. People generally aren't interested in how a ruling is derived. Neither do they have the knowledge needed to understand the derivation. For example, many people do not have an understanding of the system of grading of hadith or ilm al rijal, specially somewhat less relegious people. So it's going to be very complicated and beyond the understanding of a common man to understand how a ruling is derived. 

People should be encouraged to think and reflect and understand. Reasoning should be given even if on a very simple level according to Qur'an and known hadiths. People who follow blindly are destined to failure. 

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36 minutes ago, Urwatul Wuthqa said:

Please elaborate what do you mean by "things" here? Are you talking about religious rulings here? For newly evolved things they do ijtihaad.

Any religious opinion. If a person spends 50 years without realizing any mistakes in their beliefs, then they must be wrong. Every normal human must have epiphanies, revelations, etc.

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1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

People should be encouraged to think and reflect and understand. Reasoning should be given even if on a very simple level according to Qur'an and known hadiths. People who follow blindly are destined to failure. 

People do not do Taqleed for aqeedah. It's only done for Fiqh matters. And it's not blind. You have the option of becoming Mujtahid yourself. If you can't then search for the person you think is the most knowledgeable. They present information in the most simplistic way possible, for the benefit of common man. Then if you wish to go into depth you have the option of inquiring 

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4 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Interesting mystery book. In my opinion  their public opinions shouldn't be detached from immediate reasoning from Qur'an and hadiths. 

It’s not a mystery book but takes many years of study & need huge amount of money to be translated & published but it’s not mysterious & forbidden also even it publishes you must spend your lifetime like a marjato understand it but you befit it from its results on internet & think that you know everything better than a Marja.

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6 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

@OrthodoxTruth and @ali_fatheroforphans

Did you ever think about what the Marjas teaching you in a more critical sense? Most of the time they don’t share the Qur'an/ hadith reasoning behind their rulings.

In the written scholarly works, they usually do. You can always request a reasoning behind particular fatwa from the office. 

6 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Maybe they are wrong about more than 1%. Did you ever hear about a scholar who realized something that contradicts his past beliefs? 

Brother, as explained before, they don’t claim infallibility. From the past till present and event the future, they will issue a fatwa on fiqh related themes, and some may retract or change the previous ruling. It is a normal process. That’s because they aren’t infallible.. I will give you a simple example. Shortly after the Islamic Revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini (may Allah be pleased with him) ruled chess haram, this is a traditional position of our ulama, in 1988 he revised his view and ruled them halal as long as the game doesn’t involve betting and doesn’t constitute gambling. Other marājiʿ, for example Ayatollah Sistani (may Allah prolong his life), rule them to be haram under any conditions. They are mujtahids who interpret sharia laws and they don’t have to agree with each other, neither they ever claim to be sinless or incapable of making mistakes or revision of judgment. However, we follow them because they have enormous knowledge acquired over the period of their entire lifes and therefore serve as a bridge between us and the Imamah.

6 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

The main problem of our time is the raising of ayatollah made in google.

This. Internet became some sort of a blessing and a curse at the same time. Many people can’t understand or even read the Qur'an in Classical Arabic, but they take on marājiʿ after reading few books or articles... written by ulama, or their self-derived understanding of things. 

7 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

I think it is healthy to question our scholars because they are fallible. It is not like questioning God who is infallible. 

Nobody states that you can’t question the rulings of marājiʿ, that’s why you have nowadays over 70 to choose from. In this sense, we are blessed to live in this time and age because in the past the title of marja’ was reserved and unique only for  very few individuals living at the same time, and in majority of countries or regions even so confined only upon one worthy individual. You keep repeating like mantra that they are fallible... 

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36 minutes ago, realizm said:

:salam:

ما شاء الله

This was a controversial thing and some disagree with the election of Sayyid Khamenei for the position of the leader. They raise an argument that there were way more knowledgeable people of the ulama to take over after the demise of Ayatollah Khomeini (may Allah bless him). Sayyid Khamenei, at that time at least, was supposedly only a Hujjat al-Islam, so the election itself was de facto invalid because according to then constitution, shortly afterwards amended, the leader could only be a marja’ “or paramount in fiqh”. Hence why the Sayyid pointed out at that particular moment that he wasn’t knowledgeable enough. The rest is history.

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17 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

If a person spends 50 years without realizing any mistakes in their beliefs, then they must be wrong. 

I hope that by "a person" you mean any marja, "their beliefs" would mean his belief, "they must be wrong" mean he must be wrong. 

If this is your real argument, then you're advocating that there should be no certainty in "beliefs". 

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12 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

This was a controversial thing and some disagree with the election of Sayyid Khamenei for the position of the leader. They raise an argument that there were way more knowledgeable people of the ulama to take over after the demise of Ayatollah Khomeini (may Allah bless him). Sayyid Khamenei, at that time at least, was supposedly only a Hujjat al-Islam, so the election itself was de facto invalid because according to then constitution, shortly afterwards amended, the leader could only be a marja’ “or paramount in fiqh”. Hence why the Sayyid pointed out at that particular moment that he wasn’t knowledgeable enough. The rest is history.

Yes has been discussed before

Also interesting archived article from 1993

https://www.independent.co.United Kingdom/news/world/Shias-fight-over-world-leadership-1468164.html

 

"If Mr.. Khamenei filled the post, the fusion between religious and political authority would be complete for the Islamic Republic of Iran. No one has fulfilled the dual functions of both spiritual and religious leader there since the death of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in 1989.

After his death, the most senior ayatollah in Iran was Golpayegani, who was based in Iran, and the most senior worldwide was the late Grand Ayatollah Abulqassem al- Khoei, based in Najaf in Iraq, who died in 1992."

"Shia leaders are traditionally chosen not by governments but through a long process held by different communities. Furthermore, Mr.. Khamenei is not acceptable to many because of his lack of academic qualifications in theology, owing to his pursuit of politics."

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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11 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

Shia leaders are traditionally chosen not by governments but through a long process held by different communities. Furthermore, Mr... Khamenei is not acceptable to many because of his lack of academic qualifications in theology, owing to his pursuit of politics."

he is the best in " Ilm ul rijal" between all  marjas 

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Quote

When Ayatollah Khomeini died in 1989, some politicians thought Khomeini's mantle should be offered to Golpaygani but reportedly he refused. It was then that President Ali Khamenei was made the leader and the title of Ayatollah was given to him. However, since Khamenei was a middle-ranking clergyman, a senior mullah, Ayatollah Araki, was found to take Khomeini's religious mantle. But it was Ayatollah Golpaygani who was called from Qom to lead the memorial prayers in Tehran.

https://www.independent.co.United Kingdom/news/people/obituary-grand-ayatollah-Mohammed-reza-golpaygani-1466839.html

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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12 minutes ago, Propaganda_of_the_Deed said:

independent is a biased propaganda news agency & is source all whole bad image of Shia Islam in Europe because of propagating of Tatbir  by this site so  it's not a trust able source for any comment about Shia Islam

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