Cursing the enemies of Ahlul Bayt

[Sumerian]

27 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

This narration is against Qur'an:

And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge...6/108

 

The above narration also is not mutawatir and besides, it is mistranslated. Here, باهتوهم means "astounding them by presenting strong arguments":

الوقيعة في الناس: الغيبة. والظاهر أن المراد بالمباهتة الزامهم بالحجج القاطعة .... From al-Kafi (footnotes)

 

Like I told you, 20+ jurists agree to it being authentic. 

12 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

مجلسی : و المراد بسبهم الإتيان بكلام يوجب الاستخفاف بهم، قال الشهيد الثاني رفع الله درجته: يصح مواجهتهم بما يكون نسبته إليهم حقا لا بالكذب

حائری : و لا تصحّ مواجهته بما يكون نسبته إليه كذباً؛ لحرمته، و إمكان الوقيعة فيه من دونه.

This is what some scholars say about that narration.

مکارم : هذا و لكن ذلك لا يخلو عن إشكال.

أمّا أوّلا لحرمة الكذب ذاتا، و لا يجوز التوصّل بالباطل إلى الحقّ،

و أمّا الاولى فالبهت و البهتان- كما يظهر من متون اللغة- في الأصل بمعنى الحيرة و التحيّر، و لذا يقال بالأخذ بغتة بالعذاب البهت، قال اللّه تعالى بَلْ تَأْتِيهِمْ بَغْتَةً فَتَبْهَتُهُمْ و إطلاقه على نسبة ما ليس في إنسان إليه من هذا الباب لأنّه يحيّره كما صرّح به أهل اللغة، فكأنّ المراد: احملوا على أهل البدع من كلّ جانب و اجعلوهم متحيّرين حتّى لا يطمعوا في الفساد في الإسلام، فتأمّل.

This is in relation to "bahituhum" not in relation to insults. Some believed bahituhum means "bring evidences" others believed it meant basically waqee'a. But no one even had an issue with "sabihim".

Here is a thread discussing the hadith, dear sister. I recommend you read it before you make your opinion:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235031376-the-controversial-hadith-of-dawood-bin-sarhan/?page=3

[Hassan-]

@Sumerian why did he use the word اخبث instead of انجس ? Those words are two different meanings.

[Sumerian]

21 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

@Sumerian why did he use the word اخبث instead of انجس ? Those words are two different meanings.

I mixed up previously

[OrthodoxTruth]

Cursing the enemies of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ) and the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is a part of our religion. Nowadays (historically it wasn’t an issue), the scholars (not concerned about politics) disagree only one aspect; if the cursing should be allowed publicly or only privately. In al-Kafi there is endless list of ahadith that state, for example, that people who reject wilayah of Imamah have doors to paradise closed, and all go to hell. All of them. Therefore anyone saying that we can’t curse those that insulted, tormented and killed those blessed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ), tries to change our religion.

For example, the day of Umar's assassination (9 Rabi' al-awwal), is still celebrated in Iranian villages and was previously celebrated in major Iranian cities until the protests of Sunni countries resulted in its banning there by the post-1979 authorities... The celebration is known as jashn-e Omar koshi (the celebration of the killing of Umar).

By the “Caliph’s” degree, Sunnis previously cursed Ahlul Bayt in mosques all over the Umayyad state for almost 100 years. Since the time of the Umayyads,  and the label they acquired as the “Ahlul Bayt haters”, they realised that one can’t be a Muslim by openly hating the Prophet’s family, so they started making up tons of ahadith, whilst pretending to love them but they still insult closer Ahlul Bayt by saying they “made mistakes”, “weren’t infallible”, or downgrading their status to the mere people around the last Prophet, while they openly curse and insult further Ahlul Bayt. Wahhabis are front runners in this behaviour. So in conclusion, while we curse the enemies of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ), they curse Prophet’s closer and further family. In the instance, the cursing isn’t only by mouth but also writings and their theology, after all it was perfectly fine for the second Sunni Umayyad caliph to ambush and slaughter Prophet’s own grandson.

Edited April 22, 2019 by OrthodoxTruth

[dragonxx]

@Sumerian could you please elaborate on what sabb/insulting refers to? Because most of us I think perceive it as using those usual vulgar words, which I would find extremely hard to believe is permissible. 

Calling people pimp, najis, or bas**** child, etc. if that's what they are we wouldn't really think of it as an insult (if it's true). But if this is what is meant by sabb/insulting it would make more sense.

[Sumerian]

3 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

@Sumerian could you please elaborate on what sabb/insulting refers to? Because most of us I think perceive it as using those usual vulgar words, which I would find extremely hard to believe is permissible. 

Calling people pimp, najis, or bas**** child, etc. if that's what they are we wouldn't really think of it as an insult (if it's true). But if this is what is meant by sabb/insulting it would make more sense.

Sure brother. I would recommend you read the following thread first, as all the questions are basically answered;

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235031376-the-controversial-hadith-of-dawood-bin-sarhan/

Including the one you just asked right here:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235031376-the-controversial-hadith-of-dawood-bin-sarhan/?do=findComment&comment=2821438

Where Makarem Al-Shirazi defines sabb.

[Ashvazdanghe]

6 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

For example, the day of Umar's assassination (9 Rabi' al-awwal), is still celebrated in Iranian villages and was previously celebrated in major Iranian cities until the protests of Sunni countries resulted in its banning there by the post-1979 authorities... The celebration is known as jashn-e Omar koshi (the celebration of the killing of Umar).

it's abandoned in villages too but sometimes a few radical groups may do it ,if it was celebrating at least we had a video on social media 

[ShiaChat Mod]

Mods would like to remind everyone that it is allowed to discuss cursing, but cursing is against the rules. Please remain polite in your discussions.

Quote

Cursing of the 3 "Caliphs" (Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman by name or number) and of any of the Holy Prophet's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) wives, as well as Sunni scholars is strictly prohibited. This involves cursing by name, swear words and defamatory language. The Moderator/Admin team also reserves the right to edit/delete or not approve posts or profile comments or ban members in accordance with the application of these rules. Respect is the only way to keep peace between the 2 parties and allow constructive discussions. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/12120-shiachatcom-rules-and-policy/

Edited April 23, 2019 by ShiaChat Mod
Link to ShiaChat rules.

[313_Waiter]

So in summary

-Sayed Sistani & Sayed Khamenei prohibit cursing in public

-Saying “la’na on enemies of Ahlul Bayt” should suffice

Wsalam

 

[OrthodoxTruth]

1 hour ago, Ejaz said:

So in summary

-Sayed Sistani & Sayed Khamenei prohibit cursing in public

-Saying “la’na on enemies of Ahlul Bayt” should suffice

Wsalam

 

There is no summary on this subject. Just refer to your marja’ on that.. and as for Ayatollah Sayyid Ali as-Sistani (may Allah prolong his life), his position in fact is not clear. He issued a fatwa prohibiting cursing in public based upon a particular and specific situation, where a group of brothers in Iraq at the height of sectarian conflict (more like our genocide as always...) just “lost it” publicly when the People of Ignorance bombed al Askari’s (peace be upon them and their descendants) mosque second time. If you read it in Arabic, the fatwa didn’t prohibit cursing of the enemies of Islam in public or private, it forbid the practice in that particular moment. 

[7ssein]

2 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

There is no summary on this subject. Just refer to your marja’ on that.. and as for Ayatollah Sayyid Ali as-Sistani (may Allah prolong his life), his position in fact is not clear. He issued a fatwa prohibiting cursing in public based upon a particular and specific situation, where a group of brothers in Iraq at the height of sectarian conflict (more like our genocide as always...) just “lost it” publicly when the People of Ignorance bombed al Askari’s (peace be upon them and their descendants) mosque second time. If you read it in Arabic, the fatwa didn’t prohibit cursing of the enemies of Islam in public or private, it forbid the practice in that particular moment. 

In addition to this, Imam Khamenei may have meant cursing or may have meant insulting, depending on the original Farsi fatwa, and didn't mention about public and private.

[Sumerian]

- Sayyed Khamenei never distinguished between public and private, he simply prohibited offending the figures of our opponents

- most jurists throughout history have declared cursing and insulting as mustahab deeds against those who deserve it, such as the people who propogate bid'ah, deviance and kufr

- to each to their own marja. They have different views on bara'ah and taqiyya, and whether jahr bil bara'ah (publicising bara'ah) is acceptable is dependant on context and circumstances. Most ulama seem to believe it is not in the interest to publicise it, although a handful do.

Complete summary.

[Labyika ya Khamenei]

On 4/25/2019 at 10:56 PM, Sumerian said:

- Sayyed Khamenei never distinguished between public and private, he simply prohibited offending the figures of our opponents

- most jurists throughout history have declared cursing and insulting as mustahab deeds against those who deserve it, such as the people who propogate bid'ah, deviance and kufr

- to each to their own marja. They have different views on bara'ah and taqiyya, and whether jahr bil bara'ah (publicising bara'ah) is acceptable is dependant on context and circumstances. Most ulama seem to believe it is not in the interest to publicise it, although a handful do.

Complete summary.

I have emailed Imam Khamenei Marja before. I asked if we allowed to curse aisha or umar etc, in our hearts and I got this as answer haram etc. I attached photo below.

But I think he meant just don't do it publicly basically can someone confirm.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Labyika ya Khamenei

[Abu Hadi]

Unless you are in your room, alone, with the door locked, there is no such a thing as 'private' anymore. Anyone with a phone can take a video of you and post it so that it reaches everyone in the world in a matter of minutes. That is why, I believe, the fatwa doesn't distinguish between 'public' and 'private', and simply says any word, 'any behaviour....that would give a pretext to the enemies of Islam to create differences'

What constitutes 'any word, any behavior' is left to the mukallaf because there are some things in this which are clearly haram because they have a very high likelyhood to create fitna (like cursing of the three + Aisha) and there are some which are clearly not haram (like cursing Yazid(la) and Umar Ibn Saad(la) and Harmala(la) and Shimr ibn Jawshan(la)) because many of our Sunni brothers and sisters also curse these accursed individuals. The grey area is cursing those who some consider 'Sahaba' but are just as responsible for the misguidance of the Ummah as the above individuals, like Muawiya ibn Abu Sufyan(la). This is a judgement call, so we have to use our discretion. 

At the same time, as followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), we must understand the clear facts of history based on logic. The main responsibility for all the fitna that came after the death of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and continues up till this day lies on the shoulders and the backs of those three plus Aisha. If Umar and Abu Bakr wouldn't have executed their political coup de etat that they did at Saqifa, ignoring the order of Rasoulallah (Of whoever I am his Leader, this Ali is his Leader) given at Ghadir Khum less than a year before this coup was done, there would have been no precedent set. If there was no precedent set, What Aisha did (open rebellion and insurrection against the Imam of her time) and what Muawiya(la) did, and then what Yazid did(at Karbala) and what the sucessors to Yazid did to the other Imams((عليه السلام)) would have been difficult or impossible to do without causing a rebellion against their rule, because there would have been no precedent for going against the order of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and pushing aside the one who was designated by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to lead the Ummah. 

Because this precedent was set early in the History of Islam by these individuals, it created a very easy path for all these other tragedies to happen, and all the current tragedies to happen, up to including the blowing up of a masjid, killing worshippers who were praying Salat Al Jumah by other people who claim to be muslim (Which happened in Afghanistan a few days ago). So we need to understand the reality of who these three + Aisha were, at the same time we should refrain using the particular words, in order to protect our brothers and sisters from harm. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by Abu Hadi

[Sumerian]

2 hours ago, Labyika ya Khamenei said:

I have emailed Imam Khamenei Marja before. I asked if we allowed to curse aisha or umar etc, in our hearts and I got this as answer haram etc. I attached photo below.

But I think he meant just don't do it publicly basically can someone confirm.

Basically what he is saying is that you mustn't do anything which can be used as a reason to cause a split in the Muslim community, and the way in which you determine that what would cause such a split rests upon you.

[Labyika ya Khamenei]

6 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Unless you are in your room, alone, with the door locked, there is no such a thing as 'private' anymore. Anyone with a phone can take a video of you and post it so that it reaches everyone in the world in a matter of minutes. That is why, I believe, the fatwa doesn't distinguish between 'public' and 'private', and simply says any word, 'any behaviour....that would give a pretext to the enemies of Islam to create differences'

What constitutes 'any word, any behavior' is left to the mukallaf because there are some things in this which are clearly haram because they have a very high likelyhood to create fitna (like cursing of the three + Aisha) and there are some which are clearly not haram (like cursing Yazid(la) and Umar Ibn Saad(la) and Harmala(la) and Shimr ibn Jawshan(la)) because many of our Sunni brothers and sisters also curse these accursed individuals. The grey area is cursing those who some consider 'Sahaba' but are just as responsible for the misguidance of the Ummah as the above individuals, like Muawiya ibn Abu Sufyan(la). This is a judgement call, so we have to use our discretion. 

At the same time, as followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), we must understand the clear facts of history based on logic. The main responsibility for all the fitna that came after the death of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and continues up till this day lies on the shoulders and the backs of those three plus Aisha. If Umar and Abu Bakr wouldn't have executed their political coup de etat that they did at Saqifa, ignoring the order of Rasoulallah (Of whoever I am his Leader, this Ali is his Leader) given at Ghadir Khum less than a year before this coup was done, there would have been no precedent set. If there was no precedent set, What Aisha did (open rebellion and insurrection against the Imam of her time) and what Muawiya(la) did, and then what Yazid did(at Karbala) and what the sucessors to Yazid did to the other Imams((عليه السلام)) would have been difficult or impossible to do without causing a rebellion against their rule, because there would have been no precedent for going against the order of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and pushing aside the one who was designated by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to lead the Ummah. 

Because this precedent was set early in the History of Islam by these individuals, it created a very easy path for all these other tragedies to happen, and all the current tragedies to happen, up to including the blowing up of a masjid, killing worshippers who were praying Salat Al Jumah by other people who claim to be muslim (Which happened in Afghanistan a few days ago). So we need to understand the reality of who these three + Aisha were, at the same time we should refrain using the particular words, in order to protect our brothers and sisters from harm. 

Basically summary all that up we can't even curse in our minds on 3 caliphs + aisha but we can curse the rest of enemies of ahlulbayt.

[Abu Hadi]

41 minutes ago, Labyika ya Khamenei said:

Basically summary all that up we can't even curse in our minds on 3 caliphs + aisha but we can curse the rest of enemies of ahlulbayt.

Noone can record what's in your mind, so I'm not saying you can't do that. If you are in private, in a place where there is no possibility that someone can record you, I don't see why it would be a problem in that case.  The problem is nowadays, those types of situations are rare. The point of the fatwa of Imam Khameni(ha) is to stop harm coming to brothers and sisters who are vunerable to violence from extremist groups, not to stop the cursing. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by Abu Hadi

[Diaz]

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

Noone can record what's in your mind

My phone does, I was thinking about kfc and after few minutes kfc advertisement popped up. My phone can read my mind 

[ShiaMan14]

On 10/10/2021 at 7:00 AM, Abu Hadi said:

Unless you are in your room, alone, with the door locked, there is no such a thing as 'private' anymore. Anyone with a phone can take a video of you and post it so that it reaches everyone in the world in a matter of minutes. That is why, I believe, the fatwa doesn't distinguish between 'public' and 'private', and simply says any word, 'any behaviour....that would give a pretext to the enemies of Islam to create differences'

What constitutes 'any word, any behavior' is left to the mukallaf because there are some things in this which are clearly haram because they have a very high likelyhood to create fitna (like cursing of the three + Aisha) and there are some which are clearly not haram (like cursing Yazid(la) and Umar Ibn Saad(la) and Harmala(la) and Shimr ibn Jawshan(la)) because many of our Sunni brothers and sisters also curse these accursed individuals. The grey area is cursing those who some consider 'Sahaba' but are just as responsible for the misguidance of the Ummah as the above individuals, like Muawiya ibn Abu Sufyan(la). This is a judgement call, so we have to use our discretion. 

At the same time, as followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), we must understand the clear facts of history based on logic. The main responsibility for all the fitna that came after the death of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and continues up till this day lies on the shoulders and the backs of those three plus Aisha. If Umar and Abu Bakr wouldn't have executed their political coup de etat that they did at Saqifa, ignoring the order of Rasoulallah (Of whoever I am his Leader, this Ali is his Leader) given at Ghadir Khum less than a year before this coup was done, there would have been no precedent set. If there was no precedent set, What Aisha did (open rebellion and insurrection against the Imam of her time) and what Muawiya(la) did, and then what Yazid did(at Karbala) and what the sucessors to Yazid did to the other Imams((عليه السلام)) would have been difficult or impossible to do without causing a rebellion against their rule, because there would have been no precedent for going against the order of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and pushing aside the one who was designated by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to lead the Ummah. 

Because this precedent was set early in the History of Islam by these individuals, it created a very easy path for all these other tragedies to happen, and all the current tragedies to happen, up to including the blowing up of a masjid, killing worshippers who were praying Salat Al Jumah by other people who claim to be muslim (Which happened in Afghanistan a few days ago). So we need to understand the reality of who these three + Aisha were, at the same time we should refrain using the particular words, in order to protect our brothers and sisters from harm. 

Br. @Abu Hadi has a great point here.

A lot of us are confusing cursing with telling fact based truths. He just provided a recap of our issues with the first 3 Caliphs and Hz Aisha without cursing them. Unfortunately, telling the truth has become problematic these days to where our children have no idea about the actions of these individuals and the ramifications of those actions.

As I heard from a shia kid several years ago, "I can't hate Abu Bakr, I am sure he was a better Muslim than us." This happens because we've started refraining from speaking the truth.

[Abu Hadi]

17 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Br. @Abu Hadi has a great point here.

A lot of us are confusing cursing with telling fact based truths. He just provided a recap of our issues with the first 3 Caliphs and Hz Aisha without cursing them. Unfortunately, telling the truth has become problematic these days to where our children have no idea about the actions of these individuals and the ramifications of those actions.

As I heard from a shia kid several years ago, "I can't hate Abu Bakr, I am sure he was a better Muslim than us." This happens because we've started refraining from speaking the truth.

Actually I'll even go further than that. The only reason people still respect those three plus Aisha and hold them in high esteem is because of us, we the followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)). If we had the courage and the knowledge to, everytime someone praises one of those individuals, we said 'Do you know what x or y did?'. This is what they did, ' ....' and quote from Sunni books about what they did (because it is all there in those books) WHILE at the same time controlling our emotions (which is the difficult part), believe me, there is noone on earth who would praise them or who would say 'Maybe x or y is a better muslim than me'. Because we don't do this, people praise them. That is the truth, although I know it is difficult to accept. 

Now I realize there are some brothers and sister who live in places where group like Taliban, ISIS, ISI, etc, are active and can 'reach out and touch you' easily. For brothers and sisters who live in those areas, I am not telling them to do this. But the majority of Shia in the world don't live in those areas, and for them there is a responsibility to do Amr bil Maroof wa Nahiya Al Munkhar. This is an effective way of carrying out this duty. Effective meaning it moves us toward the goal of having a general acceptance amoung the Ummah of the clear facts of history.