Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

[Closed/Review]Being Muslim and Gay

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
1 hour ago, Aragaia said:

You mean homosexual acts? (Or some even say it refers simply to anal sex rather than sex overalls) But based on what? The Christians said that too for a long time, now they've began to reconsider. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I really don't know. But I see the issue and its investigation as something much more complicated than that. You should not follow blindly what the scholars say. What if they are wrong? Everyone will be responsible for their own sins even if they have been fooled into committing them. Forbitting what is lawful is an sin and here would count as oppression (of other Muslims as well).

First we are not Christians but Muslims so what other religions think is not our business. 

Secondly they based their conclusions on analysis of religious texts they studied during decades if not sometimes their all life. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 272
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Let's say a corrupt sheikh went ahead and married two people of the same sex, it would still be invalid in the eyes of God.  Even if the whole world 7 billion people all agreed with same sex marriage,

Islam is silent on "being" gay.  Sexual activity outside of marriage is prohibited.  Therefore, whether homosexuality is biological or socio-cultural is irrelevant. Orientation does not dict

[Note from Mod: This topic has been temporarily closed for review by a moderator pending one of the following actions: 1) Cleanup: Topic will be reviewed, inappropriate posts will be deleted foll

Posted Images

  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
3 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

 

 

No. It's haram, not immoral. Being gay doesn't make you a good or a bad person. CosmicSkeptic did a really good video on it here.

 

Why? Because it goes against Islam? Does that mean you're going to try to ban non-Muslims from eating pork too?

Eating pork doesn't have the same level of gravity than homosexuality. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Moderators
25 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

What even is your reasoning there? Why is it wrong for gay couples to hug and kiss

It's wrong for any couple to kiss and hug in public. It's wrong for people of the same sex to do so even in private.

Edited by starlight
Hug not huff
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
18 minutes ago, starlight said:

It's wrong for any couple to kiss and huff in public. It's wrong for people of the same sex to do so even in private.

It may be considered morally wrong in private, though I would like to know what makes you think so, (also where did come the rule in scripture that kissing in public is wrong? This kind of ruling depends on the society you live in or does it not?) however, Sharia is not particularly interested in what people do in private. Even homosexuality is essentially so condemned because of the public side. In my opinion this has something on it that may relieve the pressure of some people who go against the norms in private, but it also gives the entire society a strange substance which I can't quite explain. Some kind of a willful denial.

23 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

Ah, and I thought that somehow there were no women in the city. Well, now that doesn't make sense. If the women were straight, why did half the population get killed?

I'm not sure what you mean, but there were women and all besides for the household or Lut were distroyed. The women had supported the men's sins and committed their own as can be seen from Lut's wife's behaviour (she was clearly a disbeliever, immoral and disloyal).

25 minutes ago, notme said:

There are no uniquely masculine or uniquely feminine characteristics. Just like the hormones testosterone and estrogen, all men and all women have them in varying degrees. Masculine and feminine are defined by degrees. 

That's okay. Let's leave uniquely out and just say feminine and masculine. To force someone to be more feminine or more masculine than what they naturally are is abusive. I have heard a generally Conservative and yet homosexuality opposing scholar say it is okay to have the characteristics.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Moderators
2 hours ago, Aragaia said:

They weren't just having sex. They were according to many views having sex publicly, shamelessly and raping other men. How do you know this "never been done before" refers to sex and not to all those other things, or moreover, to all those things combined. Surely, there is no evidence here to say there was no homosexuality before that.

Because it says clearly in the verse of what it does refer. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Moderators
21 minutes ago, Aragaia said:

It may be considered morally wrong in private, though I would like to know what makes you think so, (also where did come the rule in scripture that kissing in public is wrong? 

Islam is a religion of modesty and haya. There are verses in the Qur'an which talk about a couple's private time and how children and servants should take permission before entering a couple's room. I am surprised people think it's okay to get affectionate with their spouses in plain view of everyone, lolz this what animals do. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Eating pork doesn't have the same level of gravity than homosexuality. 

Why?

 

1 hour ago, starlight said:

It's wrong for any couple to kiss and hug in public. It's wrong for people of the same sex to do so even in private.

Again. Reasoning.

 

1 hour ago, Aragaia said:

The women had supported the men's sins and committed their own as can be seen from Lut's wife's behaviour (she was clearly a disbeliever, immoral and disloyal).

Didn't she just look back and feel bad for the people who were being killed?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
Just now, starlight said:

Because that's what Islam says.

That's really not a reason, but a matter of faith starlight.

Let's agree at least that the issue of homosexuality has little to no reasoning behind it except for its religious prohibition, which is not based on reason at all but on religious/divine truths we are unable to grasp (as of today, at least).

Reason today says rather the contrary.

Let's give reason its legitimate rights, regardless of what Islam prohibits.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest de trout
On 6/5/2019 at 11:41 AM, Guest 4 segments of a bird said:

Allah never explicitly forbids same sex relations in the Qur'an but anybody that tells you what Allâh does and doesn’t condone is false unless they are directly quoting. They are presuming to delimit Allah’s love. blasphemous arrogance led them to where they are and they worship their own image in place of Allah which is far more of a sin than anything. You do not need other’s interpretation of the Qur'an, as Allâh is competent above all else

So why did he destroy Lut then?

 

Take your own advice and leave your personal beliefs out of it. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Aragaia said:

People can't be trained to be gay as far as science and sociological research shows. It could serve humanity on many ways, by uniting them for instance.

9 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

I have seen plenty of people on the net, you could see pictures where female actresses deliberately dress their boys and adopted boys in girls dressing. Science and Sociological research do have plenty of articles which say that people were nurtured as girls and they became patients of depression and ended into suicide, I would also request you to read those articles as well. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

It's kind of obvious how gay people existing serve humanity. It means more kids can be adopted and more kids will have families because gay people can't have biological children.

 

lolz, you mean normal children being adopted by people who are not mentally sound and they think that it is ok for a man to marry a man and female to marry a female ? They well catchup a disease which they never had. Still, go to destroy innocent brains.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
4 hours ago, Aragaia said:

The gender roles are strongly defined by the culture in Islamic countries,but less by Islam. There is no way for me to stress this enough.

Yes, but Islam says to obey the gender roles of your culture.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
2 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

lolz, you mean normal children being adopted by people who are not mentally sound and they think that it is ok for a man to marry a man and female to marry a female ? They well catchup a disease which they never had. Still, go to destroy innocent brains.

[EDIT]

Sorry, no. Hello. I'm one of those "not mentally sound people" you're referring to. I try not to call people homophobic until I have definite proof. But calling anyone who supports gay marriage mentally unsound? Well, I'd say that's pretty homophobic.

I can see why your username is eagle. You're just as hateful as the president of America.

What gives you any right to sacrifice your humanity for your religion? Because that's what you're doing. Because if you think it's OK to treat gay people like dirt, then you're not OK.

Edited by gayboyanon
Removed unnecessary comment, said what I needed to without insulting
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
On 6/7/2019 at 6:32 PM, gayboyanon said:

Congratulations, you just described the credence of Isis. You don't try to force people into Islam. That's... Despicable.

 

12 hours ago, Bakir said:

You didn't, you just said it was homophobic. And, at least, the quoted speech, was homophobic, and that won't change regardless of who say it.

However, you were called despicable for sharing that opinion and nothing happens. You weren't insulted more out of fear of mods. Now I ask what mods? Isn't that insult already out of place? Srsly guys... It's like everything is allowed when it is against homosexuals unless we report it...

 

Read the quote above he describes something he accuses me of doing as despicable then sort of implies I follow the ideology of Isis. That is not considered insulting? I think I am starting to see your true colors Bakir. Having and trying to promote a negative view of our good maraji like Ayatullah Khamenei(ha) is despicable the fact that he could just shamelessly say it with no regard for how others may view that marja is wrong in my view. He is able to disagree what is being said without using the terminology of the Kuffar though again he shouldn't disagree with it to begin with.

12 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

And how is that right? At some point, you need to accept them for who they are. At some point, you need to start treating them like normal.

 

Definitely not for Non-Muslims. Because it doesn't make you an evil or good person.

1.accept them for who they are? it depends on what you mean if you mean turning the haram into halal then your completely wrong we don't. Allah created them he knows who they are better than us. 

2.He would condemn it for everyone if a non Muslim kills someone or drinks beer gets drunk than beats his wife its still wrong. Sin is sin and he would definitely condemn the sin and those promoting it trying to make it the norm and say its ok.

12 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

Forceful against the disbelievers. What the heck does that mean then?

 

He called countries corrupt for legalising homosexuality. He said that gay people are gay because they're greedy. If the quote you said is true, then yes, he's homophobic.

1. Shada doesn't necessarily mean force you should learn Arabic before you start criticizing good maraji who studied Islam from its pure original sources. Regardless in that context it means harsh or strongly opposed, if a translation says forceful that is what is meant by that verse. Another verse in the Qur'an is against forced conversion "there is no compulsion in the religion" (2:256)

I'e I can’t go in a church get a gun to someones head and tell them become Muslim that's wrong. Islamic governement has rules on how to deal with non Muslims like Christians. 

2. They are corrupt. He didnt say they are greedy you should read more carefully he was talking about the forbidden fruit concept read it again, cause the west they say if your told you can't have something it makes you want it more he was disagreeing with the concept, 

"Some people thought – in past yearsthat since there is freedom for women and men and contacts between women and men in the West, [carnal] desires are less [intense] and motivations [for corruption] are lower; [but] here, where there is restriction [in this regard], [as said in the famous proverb:] “humans become greedy over what they are prohibited from!” Now, it has been made clear that no, it is quite the opposite" 

I.e if they are not prohibited then their desire for the opposite gender as in example should be lower.

As for your point about him being homophobic It depends on what you mean but to outright say such a thing is disrespectful in my opinion cause your intent is to make Imam Khamenei (ha) look bad and describe him negatively in your eyes. If being Homophobic as you define and describe it is what Khamenei(ha) is, than I am happy and PROUD to be one and that isn't such a bad thing. forbidding gay marriage and gay intercourse is worship of God and if people call me homophobic I don’t care inshallah. 

No you didn't call him corrupt I was reffering to somebody else. 

 

Edited by TryHard
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
19 minutes ago, TryHard said:

Read the quote above he describes something he accuses me of doing as despicable then sort of implies I follow the ideology of Isis.

Like you said, that's not what you meant. Which it was unclear. I didn't say you tried to force people, I said that if that's what it meant, that is terrible.

 

19 minutes ago, TryHard said:

Shada doesn't necessarily mean force you should learn Arabic before you start criticizing maraji who studied Islam from its pure original sources.

The translation you said was pretty vague then. It did say forceful. I'm glad it doesn't mean that though. But even then, being harsh to non-Muslims. That's why it confused me, because of the fact that the Qur'an also says there is no compulsion in religion. But please, if you're going to quote it, put it in context.

 

 

19 minutes ago, TryHard said:

2.He would condemn it for everyone if a non Muslim kills someone or drinks beer gets drunk than beats his wife its still wrong. Sin is sin and he would definitely condemn the sin and those promoting it trying to make it the norm and say its ok.

Right. And how does homosexuality turn you into a killer?

 

19 minutes ago, TryHard said:

He didnt say they are greedy you should read more carefully he was talking about the forbidden fruit concept read it again,

You're right. Rereading it now I can see he was saying the opposite.

However, saying that they should make homosexuality illegal is, imo, completely wrong. Islam says to follow the rules of your state. Saying that they shouldn't legalise people having gay sex is too much religion into Western politics.

And comparing homosexuality to incest is just desperate arguing. I will say he has bad arguments, but I'll take back what I said. From the quote, it sounds like he's not homophobic, but simply against gay sex. He never said how he feels about gay people themselves. Homophobia depends on how you treat a gay person themselves. So, take back my statement about it being homophobic. Not enough information.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
33 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

Like you said, that's not what you meant. Which it was unclear. I didn't say you tried to force people, I said that if that's what it meant, that is terrible.

I was talking to Bakir. That is what you thought I meant though initially at least I felt that way. so I was explaining to Bakir to be impartial and if he wants to report me to mods he should do the same to you. 

33 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

The translation you said was pretty vague then. It did say forceful. I'm glad it doesn't mean that though. But even then, being harsh to non-Muslims. That's why it confused me, because of the fact that the Qur'an also says there is no compulsion in religion. But please, if you're going to quote it, put it in context.

You were trying to say Islam is all about being nice all the time I was showing  you evidence to the contrary when I qouted the verse. Yes certain non Muslims who are peaceful with you sure but not everyone God in the Qur'an curses the shaytan and others. Qur'an 3:117-118 there is a time for kindness and a time where you should be harsh "be an enemy to the oppressor and supporter to the oppressed" one of the ahul bayt (عليه السلام) said it I apologize for not knowing which maybe a more knowledgeable brother or sister knows. Regardless helping the oppressor is one of the greater sins https://www.al-Islam.org/greater-sins-volume-2-ayatullah-Sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/twenty-ninth-greater-sin (notice how its 29 when sodomy was 11 when can say that a person can also oppress themselves through sins therefore helping someone sin is also wrong.)

There is also the concept of amir bil maroof . The point is when it comes to Islamic punishments for homosexauls who commit crimes worthy of the sharia punishments they should be carried out as sister starlight pointed out.  Not only that but homosexauls should fear committing the homosexaul acts and publicly kissing and engaging in lustful acts with each other.

33 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

Right. And how does homosexuality turn you into a killer?

didn't say it necessarily would, but its haram just like those things and therefore can never be made permissible and should always be condemned. 

33 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

You're right. Rereading it now I can see he was saying the opposite.

However, saying that they should make homosexuality illegal is, imo, completely wrong. Islam says to follow the rules of your state. Saying that they shouldn't legalise people having gay sex is too much religion into Western politics.

And comparing homosexuality to incest is just desperate arguing. I will say he has bad arguments, but I'll take back what I said. From the quote, it sounds like he's not homophobic, but simply against gay sex. He never said how he feels about gay people themselves. Homophobia depends on how you treat a gay person themselves. So, take back my statement. Not enough information.

Hamdulilah some progress.

It is right to make it illegal cause it's wrong and bad for any society. Amir bil maroof is wajib if Prophet lut (عليه السلام) ran a government he would ban homosexuality obviously. Banning is therefore following the sunnah of the Prophets(عليه السلام). There are many other reasons but I wan to keep this short. Imam Khamenei (ha) needs to criticize it cause its a flaw and it shows the Islamic system is superior.

Comparing to incest isnt desperate it is a very good argument. If you don’t follow God's laws then what is to stop you from such acts like incest? not saying everyone would do it but a western society like America would have no legal reason to forbid it following the same logic which people used to legalize gay marriage unfortunately. 

As for treatment of gays it depends on the gay person. Me personally if I met someone that said they were gay and they were Muslim I would try to treat them like others as long as they don’t go around saying gay marraige is halal and sodomy is ok.

My suggestion for such people depends on the situation I think a marriage between a gay and lesbian could work. I know they say it is a lot of pressure but that tends to come from two things 1. They intend for the marriage to be a sham and see other people and only keep the marriage for family and society sake. 2. The marry a straight person which I don't think is so bad and can work in my opinion but requires much sacrifice for both parties and too much to bear for many. 

In Islam though from my understanding Marriage is based on Love not purely lust though some of that is there. Love is supposed to be between a man and a woman not a man and man or his sister or mother etc... Part of this is for social reasons the other part is for spiritual reasons and another part is the fact that Islam believes men and woman are unique for each other like two atoms that need each other to bond and form a chemical compound water needs oxygen and hydrogen can’t have two oxygens or two hydrogens to make water its impossible. 

Another option based on my knowledge is gender change operation though it depends on the person.

 

Edited by TryHard
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
2 minutes ago, TryHard said:

That is what you thought I meant though initially at least I felt that way. so I was explaining to Bakir to be impartial and if he wants to report me to mods he should do the same to you. 

I don't report based on ideology, just insults @TryHard, and if any, I just ask for insults to be removed, so we can continue having this debate which I think it may be fruitful for all of us (as long as we can avoid getting called deviant, abnormal, etc.).

As for maraji, they shouldn't be insulted nor ridiculed in any way. We shoumd all be respectful in that sense, especially here. But to question a marja, to have some constructive criticism, that is neither an insult nor a way to make him look worse. Look, any gay in ShiaChat would be happy if our marjas were more considerate and learned about homosexuality, but the sad fact is that it seems they can't care any less. And this is not a marja'I issue, it is a scholarly issue. It is a taboo topic that is only mentioned to repeat what others have said (safe terrain). No one is going to take any step further because scholars would risk their credibility and name if they dared to say anything that is in favour of gays. Daheck, the first to say anything in favour of transgender people was an Ayatollah who challenged a dictator himself and started a revolution.

The issue of homophobia is beyond marjas in any case, it's a widespread social problem in the Muslim world that I doubt marjas can solve. But they indeed could contribute to its solution if they wanted to. I'm critic when they do the exact contrary, and pave the ground for violence against homosexuals. And when it comes to homophobia, I will always side with homosexuals, my beliefs are very solid and genuine on this, so don't doubt my true colours, I'm transparent in that sense.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
1 hour ago, Bakir said:

so we can continue having this debate which I think it may be fruitful for all of us (as long as we can avoid getting called deviant, abnormal, etc.).

Aren't those accurate terms though?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, Bakir said:

 Daheck, the first to say anything in favour of transgender people was an Ayatollah who challenged a dictator himself and started a revolution.

uh no, the issue of transgender has been there before, from what I know we have some hadiths from the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) on the procedure to change gender. Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) was famous for his fatwa sure. He didnt necessarily say anything in favor anyways just that in certain situations some people can change their gender.

Edited by TryHard
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...