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In the Name of God بسم الله

[Closed/Review]Being Muslim and Gay

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Ruqaya101

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Perhaps it is possible for gay Muslim men to marry gay Muslim women, if not for sexual reasons then for reasons of following sunnah, for reasons of having company and for ones mental health, being alone is not good long term.

Perhaps the two could become great friends with each other and support each other as they strive to become better Muslims, much like straight married couples would.

Perhaps even love could develop over time from that great friendship and support with the help of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Has anyone considered this?

Edited by IbnSina
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1 minute ago, IbnSina said:

Perhaps it is possible for gay Muslim men to marry gay Muslim women, if not for sexual reasons then for reasons of following sunnah, for reasons of having company and for ones mental health, being alone is not good long term.

Perhaps the two could become great friends with each other and support each other as they strive to become better Muslims, much like straight married couples would.

Perhaps even love could develop over time from that great friendship and support with the help of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Has anyone considered this?

I honestly think while sex is important, it is incredibly overrated, and if someones marriage is largely about sex, there isn't much else to it. This would be a good idea. 

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Just now, IbnSina said:

Then you would agree that it is your ability to persevere discrimination that makes you feel pride, not you feeling attraction to other men instead of women. Correct?

Yes. Do you think the rest of gays are proud merely for having sex with other men? That is nothing to be proud about. LGBT pride is precisely about what I exposed.

3 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Thus it is also understandable why Muslims would dislike people who tell them that they are gay until they have clarified that they belong to the extreme exception, which essentially is gay people who do not think gay sex is okay.

Hmmm... I may understand this point, yeah. It is reasonable to assume the person is a sinner, and having certain disgust for that (it's offtopic, but I would also warn against the spiritual harm that feeling disgust towards a sinner - in a condition that is unknown to us- as if we were purer may lead to, especially when the sin is between that person and Allah). Could accept it if it wasn't because it's usually not just mere disgust, but actual discrimination and harrass in most cases.

7 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

We have a lot of role models in Islam, their sexual urges are not relevant nor a reason as to why they are role models.

Sexuality is relevant when your life is heavily conditioned by it. It's difficult for you to empathize with this point because you are not gay. As a gay, I have always needed gay role models, like crazy. Older gays have always been the people who have understood me the best and could bring me among the best pieces of advice. This is based on mere personal experience, but I believe it's a valid point coming from a gay person. The rest of this paragraph is very vague to me... Lacking role models doesn't necessarily affect my belief or love to Allah, but other aspects of my life (social, emotional, interpersonal skills, etc.).

13 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

I can recommend this link

I know the details. That's why I brought al Sistani's fatwa to this topic, because regardless of what a marja says, there are people who will go to extremes to what happened in Iraq. Al Sistani agreed to remove the fatwa from the website after numerous deaths occured and Iraqi LGTB groups negotiated with his office the removal of the fatwa. They asked al Sistani to speak against homophobic harrassment and attacks, but that sadly didn't happen, even though we may all agree it is against Islam and against the historical known example of the Prophet saww and Ahlul Bayt as (as narrations show, and as the book I oftenly recommended The effeminate men of Early Medina points out, during the time of the Prophet).

16 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Arguebly, such a person is not a child anymore, such a person would be a baligh person with every responsiblity that it entails.

I was sure about my homosexuality before I was balight, doubtful while I was a kid (7yo). Most gays usually identify their orientation while they are kids, and they are aware they are different. In other cases, such as the OP, doubts come much later. He is also bisexual, so it may be harder to distinguish.

 

18 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Is it then not better to advise these people to seek Islamic help from those who live studying Islam rather than give personal opinions as the final answer?

As an Usooli, I have to agree that is a solid point. As a gay Muslim, I believe that information brought usually come in a disgustingly homophobic tone such as the videos we have seen. Marjas aren't addressing the topic deeply, except issuing short fatwas bringing nothing new to the table. The few times I have discussed the issue with scholars, they acknowledged this wasn't a topic of their interest and they haven't studied deeply. Why would I take more seriously a person who is significantly more ignorant than me in this topic and lacks any interest for it? I believe scholars should put more interest and efforts into this topic, but the problem of homophobia and ignorance on human sexuality is endemic in our societies. Ignoring the scientific community as well as psychological research on the topic merely because the issue is about homosexuality is part of the endemic problem when this topic is studied. Honestly, we have got a serious problem on this issue Sina, and visibility is necessary if we want our scholars to bring valid, solid, and useful responses to the LGTB community, as well as OFFICIALLY FIGHT HOMOPHOBIA as it is against Islam and humanism. As long as that doesn't happen, my own opinions on the topic are more valuable to me than all the garbage said about us.

15 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Perhaps it is possible for gay Muslim men to marry gay Muslim women, if not for sexual reasons then for reasons of following sunnah, for reasons of having company and for ones mental health, being alone is not good long term.

Commonly called marriage of convenience (MoC), this practice already happens. I don't know if any of the people that read us is in such marriage, would be nice to know some opinions on this. But for this to happen, one has to be open about his/her sexuality first.

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16 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

No, what I am "exposing" is that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a person who says he is gay, has, have or had sexual relationships with the same gender.

It's really not. Kids can be gay too. I hope you don't assume 10-year olds have had kids?

 

18 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

How old does a person need to be before he has sexual urges and moreso to be able to clearly and permanetly distingish that he is only and finally attracted to men?

Arguebly, such a person is not a child anymore, such a person would be a baligh person with every responsiblity that it entails.

I was 9 when I realised I was gay. Some people are 4.

 

9 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Perhaps it is possible for gay Muslim men to marry gay Muslim women, if not for sexual reasons then for reasons of following sunnah, for reasons of having company and for ones mental health, being alone is not good long term.

It's not good. It's dangerous. If a gay man marries a woman, well, a loveless marriage is not a good thing. First of all, it's extremely selfish, and if you do that, then you're treating women like objects. You're marrying someone you don't love, and that's unfair on her, because you are letting her marry someone who can't care for her the way someone who loves her can. It won't be real, and it's horrible. And it can't be good for the gay partner's mental health either. I agree that gay people shouldn't be forced to be alone. But marrying someone of the opposite gender just because? That's worse.

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10 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Commonly called marriage of convenience (MoC)

Quoting myself lol...

I have heard of just one case like this, and it was positive. Sites like ShiaMatch maybe could offer help to gays and lesbians looking for a MoC. In one hand, you are not giving false expectations to your partner, in the second hand, you marry and enjoy some companionship.

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On 6/5/2019 at 11:41 AM, Guest 4 segments of a bird said:

Allah never explicitly forbids same sex relations in the Qur'an  

Yes he does. Everything you mention about putting our own image and blah blah blah is exactly what your doing by trying to interpret God’s word wrongly may add in accordance with your desires. 

Look in other religions (Christianity and Judaism etc..) and sects homosexual is haram.

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4 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Quoting myself lol...

I have heard of just one case like this, and it was positive. Sites like ShiaMatch maybe could offer help to gays and lesbians looking for a MoC. In one hand, you are not giving false expectations to your partner, in the second hand, you marry and enjoy some companionship.

https://www.bbc.co.United Kingdom/news/United Kingdom-england-41899363

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3 minutes ago, TryHard said:

Yes he does. Everything you mention about putting our own image and blah blah blah is exactly what your doing by trying to interpret God’s word wrongly may add in accordance with your desires. 

Look in other religions (Christianity and Judaism etc..) and sects homosexual is haram.

Just gay sex is haram. Nowhere does it mention same-sex relations.

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@Bakir

don’t agree with your gay pride and lgbt activism cause these protests and stuff have agendas and by supporting them you are part of it. 

The sin of sodam and ghomora was sodamy

As for the solution celibacy is an option. But I wouldn’t go around trying to promote lgbt etc.. I feel like your serving yourself/desires with all this. 

Just a thought why can’t a lesbian marry a gay guy and have children possibly. It removes the pressure and they could help each other marriage of convenience I guess. I don’t think a person should be “open” as in pride we’ll not really, could be wrong willing to admit. I think when it comes to marriage you should definitely be honest like hey I’m gay. Your parents when you want to find a wife could make it so you find a lesbian. That could work.

 

Edited by TryHard
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1 minute ago, TryHard said:

It does. You can’t see it then you need to open your eyes and heart more, Also you have mujtahids that forbid it. 

So show me where it says in the Qur'an that you're not allowed to be in a relationship with someone of the same sex. Not anything to do with sex, just relationships.

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1 hour ago, gayboyanon said:

For God's sake this mod's approval thing makes debates harder lol.

Thanks for sharing the link. Indeed, this is the common reality behind MoCs and it's good you brought visibility to it. The MoC I mentioned before was done between a gay and a lesbian who were open about it to themselves and their families and community. However, usually MoCs are done to reinforce the lies, and that is definitely unhealthy. Being open about your sexuality is most likely necessary on a psychological basis, whether you choose apostasy, celibacy, MoC and/or sin on a regular basis.

This phenomenom of forced marriages is especially common in South Asian communities though. But what else can they do if they face severe negative outcomes from their families/communities? Even if they come out of the closet, parents most likely won't empathize and will still put pressure on their son/daughter to marry.

Best choice they have is to save up money and move for good.

In the other hand, I must say it's not a bad experience to try sex with women. But not as a lie, nor to make your parents proud. Just out of curiosity and to get a different experience. I actually never told my parents about my secret straight experiences. Don't want to bring my father any hope, he's already stressing me too much to marry a woman even though I told him 9999 times I have zero interest in them.

Edited by Bakir
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1 hour ago, TryHard said:

don’t agree with your gay pride and lgbt activism cause these protests and stuff have agendas and by supporting them you are part of it.

I accept the consequences, my integrity forces me to activism in any way I can, because best ally to homophobia is people's silence.

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9 minutes ago, Bakir said:

For God's sake this mod's approval thing makes debates harder lol.

I guess it makes sense though. I don't come on here very much, and the mods are worried about hate speech. Presumably you guys are more active members, so the mods trust you more.

 

11 minutes ago, Bakir said:

In the other hand, I must say it's not a bad experience to try sex with women.

I'm not even ready for gay sex yet, let alone straight sex.

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Oh hey, as soon as you said it, it looks like I don't need mod approval anymore. I don't see any option to edit posts though, so I'm making a new post. :(

1 hour ago, TryHard said:

I feel like your serving yourself/desires with all this. 

I can't speak for Bakir, but I can speak for myself:

Yes, it's absolutely selfish. I want to be free to love who I want, I want to be free to marry who I want. But it's also not selfish. Me? I was lucky. I knew I was gay before I even knew what gay meant. I didn't know gay sex was haram until long after that. I'm lucky because I am comfortable with who I am. I'm not out, but I know who I am. And I know other people, other LGBT Muslims, personally. I always told myself if it was just me I was fighting for, then whatevs. I can still be me. But if one of my friends was in the same position as me... I'd want to fight like Hell for them. And maybe I'll never get to go to a Mosque and speak and tell Muslims to stop hating gay people. I don't want to risk losing my family, or risk my family's reputation. But the least I can do is debate here.

Selfish part, maybe might not be Bakir. But I have no doubt that Bakir, just like me, is also doing this so that the youth of today can have a better future. So that they won't contemplate suicide, that they won't be forced into loveless marriages. It's selfish, but it's also not.

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16 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

I guess it makes sense though. I don't come on here very much, and the mods are worried about hate speech. Presumably you guys are more active members, so the mods trust you more.

 

I'm not even ready for gay sex yet, let alone straight sex.

I believe you need 25 posts to get your posts public without mod's approval. Or this is what I remember when I joined, it's been 10 years lol.

As for sex... The problem with the lack of role models arises again in our case. Times are changing, but when I grew up, all I knew about gay sex and relationships came from porn, which is probably the worst source of knowledge. It's probably one of the reasons why I hated sex altogether, because my understanding of it was corrupted, my experiences were awkward because of it, and my expectations far from reality. If I got good role models, my sexual life would have been way healthier at a psychological level.

7 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

I always told myself if it was just me I was fighting for, then whatevs. I can still be me. But if one of my friends was in the same position as me... I'd want to fight like Hell for them.

You have got my utmost respect! This is one of those great posts you see in ShiaChat once in a long time, and makes reading ShiaChat totally worth it.

7 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

Selfish part, maybe might not be Bakir. But I have no doubt that Bakir, just like me, is also doing this so that the youth of today can have a better future. So that they won't contemplate suicide, that they won't be forced into loveless marriages. It's selfish, but it's also not.

Absolutely!

Edited by Bakir
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On 6/4/2019 at 10:01 PM, Bakir said:

That's what I fear most in these cases sister. We should always leave the door open if we take distance from Islam, whether it be due to guilt or due to a necessary self-exploration/discovery.

We are a disgrace, yes, but we aren't here to believe in ourselves, but to believe in God. If sins bring anything good, that is being humble, especially towards God. And in that position is when you truly may experience the sweetest connections and experiences that faith has to offer. It is not a surprise that there is a hadith that says that Allah allows (in the sense that let us have free will) the believer to sin in order to avoid pride to grow within his heart.

Wow, I love this response. Such a balanced, healthy view, acknowledging all aspects and not repressing anything within yourself. (Repression leads to all sorts of destruction within oneself. I’ve learned this the hard way.) it’s what I’ve feared most within myself, too. 

It’s so important to have an open heart, as you said. I find that self-exploration is necessary for growth and greater wisdom (even Islamic wisdom). 

I don’t think people are a disgrace, because at the end of the day, most people are trying their best, and who is to say that it’s not enough? Allah knows what’s in your heart. He knows that Islam is a journey and that everyone has shortcomings. We were made imperfect, and only Allah is perfect. As long as you believe in Him, that’s all that matters. I do agree with you, brother, because being humble is better than doing good and being arrogant. The latter unfortunately plagues the Ummah, where they are on their high horse, not self-aware of the fact that their major arrogance is their downfall, to such an extent that they destroy themselves. 

I’ve sinned and don’t claim to be perfect, so I hope that Allah sees my efforts. It’s not easy, but I’m trying. 

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1 hour ago, Bakir said:

I accept the consequences, my integrity forces me to activism in any way I can, because best ally to homophobia is people's silence.

Thing is the consequences involve your soul and akhira so it isn’t the best decision.

1 hour ago, gayboyanon said:

Oh hey, as soon as you said it, it looks like I don't need mod approval anymore. I don't see any option to edit posts though, so I'm making a new post. :(

I can't speak for Bakir, but I can speak for myself:

Yes, it's absolutely selfish. I want to be free to love who I want, I want to be free to marry who I want. But it's also not selfish. Me? I was lucky. I knew I was gay before I even knew what gay meant. I didn't know gay sex was haram until long after that. I'm lucky because I am comfortable with who I am. I'm not out, but I know who I am. And I know other people, other LGBT Muslims, personally. I always told myself if it was just me I was fighting for, then whatevs. I can still be me. But if one of my friends was in the same position as me... I'd want to fight like Hell for them. And maybe I'll never get to go to a Mosque and speak and tell Muslims to stop hating gay people. I don't want to risk losing my family, or risk my family's reputation. But the least I can do is debate here.

Selfish part, maybe might not be Bakir. But I have no doubt that Bakir, just like me, is also doing this so that the youth of today can have a better future. So that they won't contemplate suicide, that they won't be forced into loveless marriages. It's selfish, but it's also not.

If it’s selfish then you are interpreting the Qur'an with your desires which again is dangerous for your soul.

im not for hating people with desires for same sex but it is wrong just like you have felt pressure I and others have felt pressure from speaking out against this. I’m against a gay Muslim committing suicide again cause just like following homosexual desires it’s haram. There should be solution but a religious one that doesn’t violate the laws of God.

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1 minute ago, TryHard said:

Thing is the consequences involve your soul and akhira so it isn’t the best decision.

I can't lie to God about my opinion and values, and I have them out of a sense of morality and responsibility. I'm optimistic that God will forgive the shortcomings that come from the honesty to oneself.

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15 minutes ago, Bakir said:

I can't lie to God about my opinion and values, and I have them out of a sense of morality and responsibility. I'm optimistic that God will forgive the shortcomings that come from the honesty to oneself.

Maybe but Your opinions and values shouldn’t be against God. Your morality should be connected to the religion al Islam

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34 minutes ago, TryHard said:

I’m against a gay Muslim committing suicide again cause just like following homosexual desires it’s haram.

That's called victim blaming. You don't have a go at the people who committed suicide. You have a go at the people who caused them to commit suicide.

35 minutes ago, TryHard said:

I and others have felt pressure from speaking out against this

Good. People speaking out against this is what causes so much sadness in the LGBT community. LGBT people coming out doesn't hurt you in any way. LGBT people existing, or marrying, or even having sex, doesn't affect you in any way. People "speaking out" against gay sex, hurts people. I've said it before, I'm lucky. I'm lucky that I'm comfortable with who I am. Many people aren't. And "speaking out" against gay people can lead them down a path of misery and despair. So no, don't compare your pressure to our pressure. They're nowhere near the same.

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6 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

That's called victim blaming. You don't have a go at the people who committed suicide. You have a go at the people who caused them to commit suicide.

Good. People speaking out against this is what causes so much sadness in the LGBT community. LGBT people coming out doesn't hurt you in any way. LGBT people existing, or marrying, or even having sex, doesn't affect you in any way. People "speaking out" against gay sex, hurts people. I've said it before, I'm lucky. I'm lucky that I'm comfortable with who I am. Many people aren't. And "speaking out" against gay people can lead them down a path of misery and despair. So no, don't compare your pressure to our pressure. They're nowhere near the same.

No not good people shouldn’t be condemned for speaking the truth and God’s word. Regardless of the pressure we inshallah will fight the system of the Dajjal and resist the pressure from it. Your on it’s side and going against the Imam (عليه السلام) of your time.

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6 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

That's called victim blaming. You don't have a go at the people who committed suicide. You have a go at the people who caused them to commit suicide.

Good. People speaking out against this is what causes so much sadness in the LGBT community. LGBT people coming out doesn't hurt you in any way. LGBT people existing, or marrying, or even having sex, doesn't affect you in any way. People "speaking out" against gay sex, hurts people. I've said it before, I'm lucky. I'm lucky that I'm comfortable with who I am. Many people aren't. And "speaking out" against gay people can lead them down a path of misery and despair. So no, don't compare your pressure to our pressure. They're nowhere near the same.

"gay people" if they express their sexual desire, promote them and want to normalize it equally to heterosexuality affect us and hurt us. Because they are trying to normalize their sexual deviance in our societies wich is not acceptable for us. So this is why Muslim societies should never accept homosexuality and fight against any form of banalisation of it. After if some people begin to have sexual feelings toward same sex they must not be blamed if they regret it and fight agaisnt that and we must even help them, but again if they try to normalize it we could not be agree with them ever. 

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As I know we have two kinds of gays.

Ones who r really gays bcuz they have genetic problems

N others ones r whom don't have genetic problems but society lead them to be homosexuals.

God doesn't create ppl with genetic problems. It s just a part of our lives. We created many things which cause mutation in genes n then we reproduce n give our mutated genes to the next generation !

Edited by strength=Abbas
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13 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

But no, your comments are homophobic. "Horny teenagers", "jumping on the bandwagon", "most transgender people become prostitutes". Your comment is full of loaded language, full of stereotypes and belittling LGBT people as "just a bandwagon". Maybe you don't think you're homophobic, but your comments are homophobic.

Please for the love of God read what I write before you write what we all have to read.

I did not say most trans people become prostitutes, I said (and I said so because they literally made a documentary that shows it to be the case) that:

"Iran allows people to have operations. Yet rather than lead a normal life as a woman, people often end up prostituting themselves for a living."

[Square button and lock.]

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If the  "banalization" you fight includes acknowledging a homosexual orientation (which in itself implies an urge to homosexual activity and an understanding of what that is) then you can't ever hope to "help" people experiencing this phenomenon. You are speaking in contradictions because you are shutting down the avenues to this help with your hostility and the homosexual's fear of it. 

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2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Not according to the Qur'an and narrations.

Where does it say so exactly? When the Qur'an says such abominations have not been done before, it does not refer to homosexuality alone - some even say it doesn't refer to homosexuality at all. But most agree that it doesn't refer to it alone. They committed many other sins.

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2 hours ago, strength=Abbas said:

As I know we have two kinds of gays.

Ones who r really gays bcuz they have genetic problems

N others ones r whom don't have genetic problems but society lead them to be homosexuals.

God doesn't create ppl with genetic problems. It s just a part of our lives. We created many things which cause mutation in genes n then we reproduce n give our mutated genes to the next generation !

Anything that people create are created by Allah. God creates people we know as having 'genetic problems'.

 

There is no scientific proof that a homosexual can become so simply because of society. Which is why the common "fear of homosexuality and contamination" is absurd.

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15 hours ago, Guest Heinz said:

The curse of Allah are upon the communities who when they see erroneous beliefs promoted, remain silent. It is a Fard to speak out.

So you’re cursing me?

thanks brother 

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19 minutes ago, Noor Taleb said:

So you’re cursing me?

thanks brother 

Not you brother, I mean communities in general. We have duties as communities, someone has to do something. It's general, not to do with this issue. 

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3 hours ago, Klanky said:

If the  "banalization" you fight includes acknowledging a homosexual orientation (which in itself implies an urge to homosexual activity and an understanding of what that is) then you can't ever hope to "help" people experiencing this phenomenon. You are speaking in contradictions because you are shutting down the avenues to this help with your hostility and the homosexual's fear of it. 

Just for being sure you are answering to me here? 

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