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In the Name of God بسم الله

[Closed/Review]Being Muslim and Gay

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38 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

"Nobody will harm or touch you because we're not allowed to do that". Terrible choice of wording, cause I hope the only reason he's not hurting gay people is because it's illegal.

These "scholars" are just homophobes. And still better than issuing fatwas in favour of killing us in the harshest possible way. It's crazy.

I won't listen to any scholar if he/she's not homosexual himself/herself. I'm fed up of watching these videos full of ignorants idiots, bigots and people who in their 40s couldn't learn an atom of respect and decency in their entire lives.

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Let's say a corrupt sheikh went ahead and married two people of the same sex, it would still be invalid in the eyes of God.  Even if the whole world 7 billion people all agreed with same sex marriage,

Islam is silent on "being" gay.  Sexual activity outside of marriage is prohibited.  Therefore, whether homosexuality is biological or socio-cultural is irrelevant. Orientation does not dict

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4 minutes ago, Bakir said:

These "scholars" are just homophobes. And still better than issuing fatwas in favour of killing us in the harshest possible way. It's crazy.

I won't listen to any scholar if he/she's not homosexual himself/herself. I'm fed up of watching these videos full of ignorants idiots, bigots and people who in their 40s couldn't learn an atom of respect and decency in their entire lives.

I agree, but the videos are at least opening up discussion about it, which is still better than before, when no one spoke about gay people. Channels like Islamic Pulse are... Terrible, at least their LGBT content. Their fear-mongering and hatred is... A lot. But the whole LGBT education thing in Birmingham is getting people to talk, to discuss. You're older than me I think. Have you ever seen a time where Muslims have discussed LGBT issues as much as they are now?

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56 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

No. First of all, he never said how gay sex is somehow worse than extramarital sex. He claimed it was bad because it's outside of marriage, so it's his job to say how gay marriage could be wrong.

He's also saying gay people should control their urges. They can't find love, can't get married, and if they take a wife, they're going to be in a loveless marriage, and that's not fair to anyone.

"I draw the line at somebody who wants to spread this idea and wants other people to follow him." What does that even mean? Oh wait, I know, he's trying to say that gay people shouldn't be out of the closet. Otherwise, that sentence is gibberish.

"Nobody will harm or touch you because we're not allowed to do that". Terrible choice of wording, cause I hope the only reason he's not hurting gay people is because it's illegal.

"We ask Allah to guide us to the straight path" That's so passive aggressive it's unbelievable.

His words not mine. Was just trying to help a brother....

Bottom line. Homosexuality is simply forbidden. 

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3 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

I agree, but the videos are at least opening up discussion about it, which is still better than before, when no one spoke about gay people. Channels like Islamic Pulse are... Terrible, at least their LGBT content. Their fear-mongering and hatred is... A lot. But the whole LGBT education thing in Birmingham is getting people to talk, to discuss. You're older than me I think. Have you ever seen a time where Muslims have discussed LGBT issues as much as they are now?

Yeah, you are right. Even here in ShiaChat, these topics are discussed in other ways (as surprising as it may be, we had way many more bigots before, who even dared to insult). Now ShiaChat staff is clearly having a different approach and I value they take care of homophobic behaviour and members (in most cases).

It is also people coming out publicly what really helps. Not always possible, sometimes we may face serious negative outcomes, but in the end, it brings some needed visibility. I haven't checked Islamic Pulse content, may take a look to see what they have to say lol (I better grab some popcorn).

In any case, I hope it comes a day where we can all agree to stop demonize the word gay, where I can go to an Islamic center, and be welcome even though I'm publicly gay. And I hope people end up understanding why that is necessary, why it is important to have gay role models within our communities, that are open and proud about it.

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Just now, Ali~J said:

His words not mine. Was just trying to help a brother....

Bottom line. Homosexuality is simply forbidden. 

Sorry, I hope you don't think I was blaming you. I was more trying to consider the video. While I disagree with you/the speaker about this, at least you wanted to try to help someone, even if (no offence meant to you), it would more than likely do more harm than good.

The primary problem with telling gay people to control their desires is that a lot of Muslims are against gay marriage. Which means if they're gay and not bi, they won't be able to settle down, find love, have a family. And like I said, marrying the opposite gender is not an option. It's likely to make both husband and wife miserable, and kids if they have any.

But, while we're discussing: Gay marriage. Not all gay people will have sex. Steven Fry hasn't I think. Why should Muslims be against gay marriage, or should they be?

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On 6/3/2019 at 3:33 AM, Guest Questione said:

One thing that confuses me is what stance Islam takes. 

1. Does Allah create people without them having any desire and no fair way to exercise their desires I.e gay people?

2. Is being gay heavily influenced by nurture and also choice and exposure?

 

People in the past would have overwhelmingly sided with 2. Now that we are all becoming more liberalised and uniting with the left, many now go with 1, like the Christians have done. Given Shia Islam allows sex changes (I.e. Allah can create people in the wrong bodies for them) what is to say he can't create people without any desire for the opposite sex?

Allah (عزّ وجلّ) does not create gay people, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) do create humans with imperfections but that is only for us to know that we are not perfect and understand our weaknesses and do not put ourselves in his opposition. 

Let's talk about a normal human-being, I am a normal male but I lack beautiful facial features that may make girls to cut their hands for me like the females of egypt did for Prophet Yousuf (عليه السلام). but since I do not have such quality, am I to change myself into Prophet Joseph ? Everyone would say no and ask me to remain what am I because the disappointment of not being Prophet Joseph is actually a disease which my psychological history would suggest is due to my bad psychological upbringing.

Similarly, a transgender person, who may look like a male but may be a biological female, for such person there is a medical issue and for that Islam allows surgery. 

However, for those who are normal and do not have any medical issues, they are actually being transformed into gays by weak social culture which is actually nurture and not divine. That is why Islam does not allow such thing and deems it to be haram.

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1 hour ago, Bakir said:

In any case, I hope it comes a day where we can all agree to stop demonize the word gay, where I can go to an Islamic center, and be welcome even though I'm publicly gay. And I hope people end up understanding why that is necessary, why it is important to have gay role models within our communities, that are open and proud about it.

What is it that your supposedly proud about? Having haram urges for the same sex?

When will gay people or other people with other "sexual orientations" understand that they don’t need to broadcast it for the world to hear, its your personal business so keep it personal.

 

If a guy says he is gay, believe it or not, people will rightfully associate that with a man having sex with another man, which is extremely haram and one of the great sins, and thus they dislike it. Is that hard to believe? Or would you rather every person that you tell that your gay to, have to ask and make inquiries about your personal sex life in order for them not to assume that you have sex with other men? Because thats what they will do otherwise, which is a very natural assumption to make, especially with the western gay pride circus going on.

Edited by IbnSina
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2 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

Dear God, you're homophobic and you're an anti-vaxxer?

I have looked for a phobia called homophobia in the DSM-V, no luck I am afraid. 

Please re-read on my response about vaccines... Paying attention to the phrases Some People [...] I don't have the evidence [...] so I will leave that

2 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

Some people even say vaccines cause issues in the DNA, but I don't have the evidence to agree or disagree, so I will leave that to those who do know.

So you can call me what you like, the great thing about the internet is as soon as I press that little square on the bottom of my Android and the lock button on the side of it, you aren't my problem anymore. :sunglasses:

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1 hour ago, Ali~J said:

Why is not OK to be homophobic. 

There are many reasons, but we can start by saying that homophobia promotes hate crimes. I can bring tons of examples, but I am sure you will be able to google them if you have any doubts. I already brought a few examples in Iraq, but Chechenia, France, Egypt, etc. have had recent crazy cases of mobbing against LGBT people.

@IbnSina I get your point, however, as of now, I find openness about sexuality more benefitial than invisibility, precisely because homophobia. Pride is important as well precisely because homophobia. Homophobic mentalities and behaviours in society are the cause for countless crimes as well as suicides. Some people may take this lightly, I, personally, and as a person with integrity, can't, because I know what homophobia is. So if the major threat to being open about it is that some people will have a dirty thought for some seconds, I'm ok with it. Dirty thoughts about two men having sex don't make anyone suicide nor get murdered in the streets. Silence and hate do.

Edited by Bakir
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1 hour ago, gayboyanon said:

But, while we're discussing: Gay marriage. Not all gay people will have sex. Steven Fry hasn't I think. Why should Muslims be against gay marriage, or should they be?

Rather than for or against, the concept of gay marriage doesn't exist in Islam. If any, all I have been able to find is an implied tendency towards the same sex, a tendency that according to Shia tradition can be controlled. It is, in any case, a miserable situation: you can't religiously marry nor have sex with another man.

Now, I don't know if your question is rather oriented to gay marriage as a legal union in which no sex is present. This would fill one of the big needs, companionship (at a romantical level). As far as I know, there is no literature on the subject, but I fear that living with a person you are romantically attached to may mean you are putting yourself in a situation where you will most likely sin. Apart from that, it is not just sodomy what is condemned, but almost all lustful/romatic acts such as kisses, for instance. A significant part of gay couples don't indulge in anal sex, so that is not really the issue in Islam, just a part of it.

So, given that you cannot marry any gender, nor have any outlet, a gay person will most likely end up sinning on a regular basis (either alone or with other people). I would agree that a healthy stable relationship between two men is better than regular sex with random men, the issue is that this tendency is controllable, though you pay a high price (unsatisfied sexual life, anxiety, solitude, etc.). Knowing the sadness and emptiness it brings, I can't blame people who may find it ridiculous. But this is all I know about Islam.

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11 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Pride is important as well

What is it that you are proud about?

If I like women, should I feel proud about that?

 

12 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Dirty thoughts about two men having sex don't make anyone suicide nor get murdered in the streets.

Maybe they will kill you or harrass you because they see you being open about being gay and promoting that as you promoting that which comes with being gay, I.e. same gender sex. Do you feel like connecting being gay with having same sex relationships unreasonable? You do realize that in the western world you would consists of maybe less than 1% who say they are gay openly but also promotes celibacy and does not engage in same sex activity. Because all these people who walk in the pride parades sure as hell mean they are gay and everything that comes along with it.

 

What is exactly the reason for you feeling that you need to tell others about your personal sexuality? That you like the idea of having sex with other men more than the idea of having sex with females? If you want to live in celibacy, then do so, but its nobodies business what sexual orientation you have. The act of homosexuality is clearly haram in Islam, then for whosoever has urges towards the same sex, its very clear that they are not allowed to act on it. You shouting out that your like men and not women, does not change that.

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7 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

If I like women, should I feel proud about that?

No, but you are not discriminated based on your sexuality, I am. Thus, instead of feeling like garbage, I should feel proud and confident about myself, and that includes my sexuality that plays a big part in my life, regardless of celibacy. Precisely, it is a consequence of my sexuality.

7 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Do you feel like connecting being gay with having same sex relationships unreasonable?

It is not unreasonable at all, but not the most significant part of it. When I think of other gays, I don't feel I'm connected with their sexual lives, but with something way more meaningful, that is social identity, experiences, discrimination, rights, etc.

7 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

What is exactly the reason for you feeling that you need to tell others about your personal sexuality? 

Because when I was a kid I wished someone told me I wasn't alone. As you said, I may represent 1% of gay people, if any, so it's difficult for a gay Muslim kid to find anything apart from what all of us see in pride parades. Being open about it is also important at an identity level. You may understand it or not, but imagine if the whole world assumed you were gay. Many men I know would feel awkward if not insulted if that happened.

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1 hour ago, IbnSina said:

Are you a Muslim?

Yes. And last I checked, nothing in Islam says you should be against gay marriage. Does Islam explicitly forbid gay marriage?

1 hour ago, IbnSina said:

If a guy says he is gay, believe it or not, people will rightfully associate that with a man having sex with another man

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. Being gay is the feeling of loving someone of the same sex, it has nothing to do with sexual intercourse.

10 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Maybe they will kill you or harrass you because they see you being open about being gay and promoting that as you promoting that which comes with being gay, I.e. same gender sex. Do you feel like connecting being gay with having same sex relationships unreasonable?

Please say you're not trying to victim blame and say it's gay people's own fault for getting killed or harassed.

10 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

What is exactly the reason for you feeling that you need to tell others about your personal sexuality? That you like the idea of having sex with other men more than the idea of having sex with females? If you want to live in celibacy, then do so, but its nobodies business what sexual orientation you have. The act of homosexuality is clearly haram in Islam, then for whosoever has urges towards the same sex, its very clear that they are not allowed to act on it. You shouting out that your like men and not women, does not change that.

Let's see. In the Muslim community, where Muslims are encouraged to get married as early as possible, people are looked down on if they're unmarried, parents will try to get you married if they think you're straight. Oh, makes life less awkward so nobody keeps trying to set you up.

There are so many reasons to come out. Maybe not to someone like you, but there are definitely good reasons to come out.

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14 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Maybe they will kill you or harrass you because they see you being open about being gay and promoting that as you promoting that which comes with being gay, I.e. same gender sex.

And I kind of ignored this... Sina, as much as I appreciate you, I believe you should take these words back to keep debating with me. There are things I'm not open to tolerate, and being ok with killing people based on their sexuality is one of them.

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52 minutes ago, aaaz1618 said:

I have looked for a phobia called homophobia in the DSM-V, no luck I am afraid. 

Please re-read on my response about vaccines... Paying attention to the phrases Some People [...] I don't have the evidence [...] so I will leave that

So you can call me what you like, the great thing about the internet is as soon as I press that little square on the bottom of my Android and the lock button on the side of it, you aren't my problem anymore. :sunglasses:

If you don't agree or disagree, then you wouldn't take vaccines. Clearly, if you do take vaccines and think it's safe, then you disagree. And if you wouldn't take a vaccine, that's being an anti-vaxxer.

But no, your comments are homophobic. "Horny teenagers", "jumping on the bandwagon", "most transgender people become prostitutes". Your comment is full of loaded language, full of stereotypes and belittling LGBT people as "just a bandwagon". Maybe you don't think you're homophobic, but your comments are homophobic.

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2 minutes ago, Bakir said:

And I kind of ignored this... Sina, as much as I appreciate you, I believe you should take these words back to keep debating with me. There are things I'm not open to tolerate, and being ok with killing people based on their sexuality is one of them.

Are you promoting the idea that:

 

1. Allah has created people gay, despite Lot telling homosexuals that women were more pure for them?

2. There is no way to change ?

3. It is acceptable to identify as gay and talk about same sex desires as something Allah has chosen

4. Sayed Sistani has greatly erred in his approach?

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Bakir said:

No, but you are not discriminated based on your sexuality, I am.

So you pride is only because people discriminate you? How does that give reason for pride?

Pride is what you feel for something you do, you may feel pride in the fact that you remain celibate even though your having urges towards other men, but having urges for other men is no reasonable reason in of itself to feel pride.

 

22 minutes ago, Bakir said:

It is not unreasonable at all

Then why do you feel like its wrong that Muslim dislike the term gay and people who say they are gay when it is reasonable to assume that they engage in haram sex?

 

22 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Because when I was a kid I wished someone told me I wasn't alone. As you said, I may represent 1% of gay people, if any, so it's difficult for a gay Muslim kid to find anything apart from what all of us see in pride parades. Being open about it is also important at an identity level. You may understand it or not, but imagine if the whole world assumed you were gay. Many men I know would feel awkward if not insulted if that happened.

Does it matter if your alone or not when the laws are clearly stated? Your more than your sexual urges and building an identity surrounding your sexual urges is really not healthy or good.

I wouldnt care if the entire world thought I was gay (as long as I still got married), it don’t make a difference to me nor to the truth and thats that.

 

13 minutes ago, Bakir said:

And I kind of ignored this... Sina, as much as I appreciate you, I believe you should take these words back to keep debating with me. There are things I'm not open to tolerate, and being ok with killing people based on their sexuality is one of them.

What do you mean? If you commit the act of homosexuality, and get caught, the sharia punishment for this is death. You want me to take sharia back?

You think thats harsh? Committing greater sins such as having homosexual relationships will condemn one to hell and thats even worse than death.

Edited by IbnSina
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3 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Then why do you feel like its wrong that Muslim dislike the term gay and people who say they are gay when it is reasonable to assume that they engage in haram sex?

Same sex relationships aren't the same as gay sex. (Also, I think the mods are asleep, so they can't approve my post, so my post is going to appear so late to you guys.

4 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

I wouldnt care if the entire world thought I was gay (as long as I still got married), it don’t make a difference to me nor to the truth and thats that.

You really don't seem to understand that getting married as a gay person is a terrible idea. The wife will be unhappy, the husband will be unhappy, there'll be constant fights, etc.

 

6 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

What do you mean? If you commit the act of homosexuality, and get caught, the sharia punishment for this is death. You want me to take sharia back?

And you're the reason Muslims have a bad name. Well done.

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22 minutes ago, Bakir said:

 

Would you attend a gay pride march, if the intention of the march was just to promote the idea Allah has deliberately made people with fixed and unchangeable desires for the same sex, and has made absolutely no halal way out for them to exercise their desires?

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5 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

Same sex relationships aren't the same as gay sex. (Also, I think the mods are asleep, so they can't approve my post, so my post is going to appear so late to you guys.

You really don't seem to understand that getting married as a gay person is a terrible idea. The wife will be unhappy, the husband will be unhappy, there'll be constant fights, etc.

 

And you're the reason Muslims have a bad name. Well done.

Are you promoting the idea that Allah has created people to desire the same sex without any chance of change? That people with doubts about their sexuality shouldn't try methods or get married, but should be celibate?  That Lot was basically giving terrible advice when he offered his daughters to the homosexuals of Sodom and Gomorra?

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19 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

So you pride is only because people discriminate you?

Partly, there are many other aspects to it. A life of discrimination teaches you a lot, and requires courage and confidence to keep forward. I feel proud of that, and that is directly linked to my condition as a homosexual. That's why we build an identity.

19 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Then why do you feel like its wrong that Muslim dislike the term gay and people who say they are gay when it is reasonable to assume that they engage in haram sex?

Because, as I said, gay sex is not everything about being gay, to begin with. What you are exposing is literally a prejudice.

19 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Does it matter if your alone or not when the laws are clearly stated? 

Yes. We are not robots, Sina, we are humans. We need role models, all of us. This is not an easy or simple struggle when a lot leave Islam merely for being in this condition.

19 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

What do you mean? If you commit the act of homosexuality, and get caught, the sharia punishment for this is death. You want me to take sharia back?

I'm pretty sure Sharia doesn't harrass and kill people on the assumption that they are gay. There are very restrictive conditions that are never took into consideration when gay people are murdered in countries like Iraq, for instance. Lastly, you know this is not the example given by our Imams, as was the case of Imam Ali as when a gay confessed thrice. Check Iraq LGBT website (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.United Kingdom/news/world/middle-east/Sistani-renounces-fatwa-on-gays-478396.html%3famp). There are more narrations involving gays acting on it, and in none of them were they killed.

Wording is important and sensitive Sina. There are gay kids within our communities that develop a feeling of guilt and lack of self esteem that may lead them to suicide or leaving Islam altogether (along getting lost in life).

There is this LGBT activism mom (who was a radical Christian before her son committed suicide), Mary Griffith, that correctly said: 

Before you echo 'Amen' in your home or place of worship, think and remember...a child is listening.

Edited by Bakir
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To the brothers here with the belief Allah has made them gay with no chance of changing, and are proud to be gay and use it as their identity, what was Lot thinking when he offered homosexual men of Sodom and Gomorra his own daughters who were more pure for him? Would the creator of the universe not have known he made those men gay? Or do you believe the Qur'an is a book of recycled tales, promoted by a fallible Arab?

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28 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

Yes. And last I checked, nothing in Islam says you should be against gay marriage. Does Islam explicitly forbid gay marriage?

How can you ask such a question then?

There is no such thing as gay marriage in Islam because it is not recognized as HALAL, just like there is no such thing as a marriage between a son and his mother or a man and his goat. 

The point of a marriage is to make the couple halal for each other so that they may do that which married couples do. What did you think the point of marriage was?

 

6 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

You really don't seem to understand that getting married as a gay person is a terrible idea. The wife will be unhappy, the husband will be unhappy, there'll be constant fights, etc.

I never suggested such a thing.

 

7 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

And you're the reason Muslims have a bad name. Well done.

If kafirs give us a bad name for following the laws of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), which is sharia, then I could not care less. The purpose of our existence is not to make non Muslims like us but to obey Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

 

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11 minutes ago, Noor Taleb said:

Damn the arguments

WELCOME TO THE INTERNET !

The curse of Allah are upon the communities who when they see erroneous beliefs promoted, remain silent. It is a Fard to speak out.

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Bakir, if you support rulings such as this, a lot of people who you might associate with in the LGBT rights communities may see you as a neither here nor there.

 

 

Edited by Hassan-
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On 6/3/2019 at 8:10 PM, Haydar Husayn said:

What would you say about people born with certain physical abnormalities that make it impossible for them to find a spouse? Or simply those who for whatever reason can’t find someone to marry them? Should they then try to obtain sex by any means necessary simply to fulfil their needs?

 

Good thought, but ultimately not entirely relevant here. Those who can't find a spouse couldn't exercise any desire, heterosexual or homosexual. However, even for them, it might be difficult but not impossible. There are many with severe disabilities and partners and many remain with their partners after they have disabilities. Those who are that far down in disability often have far bigger problems than sex, but living normal lives in general. There is also the option of Mutah and we need not dwell on how that can solve a problem.

Homosexuality on the other hand are capable, able-bodied individuals Allah has deliberately made with an unchangeable desire for men and therefore has made it impossible for them to exercise their desires. That's not even the point, God has called their longing for other men enough to act it out as despicable, as if it was an unnatural thing that comes as a result of looseness and moral deprivation, the climax of which is having a shameless desire even for that which is forbidden and going ahead and acting on it. When Lot tells his people his daughters are more pure for them than other men, how silly if they responded with: "Tell that to Allah, who made us have no desire for women. What was the point of that?".

A man and women caught having Zina get lashes, and there is a lot of recourse via Mutah, early marriage. What about a man who Allah has apparently made a homosexual? Is he going to punish someone he gave no fair way to exercise on their desire?

Again, those who are disabled have a chance, even if they have to work harder and make it up in other ways. There is also Mutah. If they are that badly disabled, they often have far bigger problems that impair even basic day to day living. Healthy able-bodied men with strong desires for other men that are apparently naturally in them are at much higher risk of exercising them, given an entire life time. 

I mean, it would be seriously unhealthy to tell a man or woman you can't have sexual relations for your whole life, if they were in contact with society and could integrate somewhat into it. We are now supposed to believe God does that with gays?

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28 minutes ago, Guest Heinz said:

That Lot was basically giving terrible advice when he offered his daughters to the homosexuals of Sodom and Gomorra?

You are assuming that the people of Lot were homosexuals, and that is assuming way too much if you have read the details of this story within our narrations.

32 minutes ago, Guest Heinz said:

Would you attend a gay pride march, if the intention of the march was just to promote the idea Allah has deliberately made people with fixed and unchangeable desires for the same sex, and has made absolutely no halal way out for them to exercise their desires?

That would be the weirdest parade. The goal of a pride parade is to bring visibility and reivindicate LGTB rights. What you propose is an absurd example. In the other hand, I wasn't defending that Allah created us that way. I believe sexuality is mostly an acquired trait as you grow up. That doesn't mean it is an on/off button as some straight men seem to imply. It's easy to put yourself in my shoes if you even tried, but you don't want to. It is as easy for you to become gay as it is for me to become straight.

Also, I'm not against trying to change it. I just give zero hope to that, and speak against conversion therapy because it is psychologically risky as psychological associations say. However, I myself have done mutah with women in order to explore my own sexuality, with no change at all.

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Just now, Bakir said:

Partly, there are many other aspects to it. A life of discrimination teaches you a lot, and requires courage and confidence to keep forward. I feel proud of that, and that is directly linked to my condition as a homosexual. That's why we build an identity.

Then you would agree that it is your ability to persevere discrimination that makes you feel pride, not you feeling attraction to other men instead of women. Correct?

 

4 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Because, as I said, gay sex is not everything about being gay, to begin with. What you are exposing is literally a prejudice.

No, what I am "exposing" is that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a person who says he is gay, has, have or had sexual relationships with the same gender.

Thus it is also understandable why Muslims would dislike people who tell them that they are gay until they have clarified that they belong to the extreme exception, which essentially is gay people who do not think gay sex is okay.

 

9 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Yes. We are not robots, Sina, we are humans. We need role models, all of us. This is not an easy or simple struggle when a lot leave Islam merely for being in this condition.

We have a lot of role models in Islam, their sexual urges are not relevant nor a reason as to why they are role models. The idea that universe is created by a Creator has nothing to do with lacking role models or struggling in life. Anyone who is ready to change their understanding of who created time, universe and everything in it, based on lacking role models and struggling because of that, does not have a logical and rational basis/understanding in/of their belief to begin with, rather an emotional one. Otherwise they would undertand that one is not related to the other.

Will you stop believing that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the only and single God and that Muhammad(S) is His messengers, which is essentially what makes you Muslim, based on something like that? How do you justify that? Does God stop existing because you like men more than women?

You as a creation, as a creation of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), is so much more than merely your physical urges, why make your whole definition and understanding of yourself start and end at that?

 

18 minutes ago, Bakir said:

I'm pretty sure Sharia doesn't harrass and kill people on the assumption that they are gay.

No, you are neither allowed to harrass or kill based on assumptions and netiher did I say that.

What I said was:

"If you commit the act of homosexuality, and get caught..." Caught as in caught doing it.

I can recommend this link for more detailed information regarding the ruling of having same sex sexual intimacy:

https://www.al-Islam.org/greater-sins-volume-1-ayatullah-Sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/eleventh-greater-sin-sodomy#fref_f7ebf55f_1

 

21 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Wording is important and sensitive Sina. There are gay kids within our communities that develop a feeling of guilt and lack of self esteem that may lead them to suicide or leaving Islam altogether (along getting lost in life).

How old does a person need to be before he has sexual urges and moreso to be able to clearly and permanetly distingish that he is only and finally attracted to men?

Arguebly, such a person is not a child anymore, such a person would be a baligh person with every responsiblity that it entails.

If a young adult has feelings towards the same sex, he should contact scholars who can guide him based on Islamic teachings, as far as I know, and I have confirmed this with you, there is no Islamic basis in your conclusions about celibicy being the only solution, being gay without any chance of swaying permantently, nor your approach of being "open and proud" about it, these are all you personal opinions based on your own reflections. Correct me if I am wrong.

Is it then not better to advise these people to seek Islamic help from those who live studying Islam rather than give personal opinions as the final answer?

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3 hours ago, Bakir said:

You are assuming that the people of Lot were homosexuals, and that is assuming way too much if you have read the details of this story within our narrations.

That would be the weirdest parade. The goal of a pride parade is to bring visibility and reivindicate LGTB rights. What you propose is an absurd example. In the other hand, I wasn't defending that Allah created us that way. I believe sexuality is mostly an acquired trait as you grow up. That doesn't mean it is an on/off button as some straight men seem to imply. It's easy to put yourself in my shoes if you even tried, but you don't want to. It is as easy for you to become gay as it is for me to become straight.

Also, I'm not against trying to change it. I just give zero hope to that, and speak against conversion therapy because it is psychologically risky as psychological associations say. However, I myself have done mutah with women in order to explore my own sexuality, with no change at all.

I don't really hold any positions on these issues. I just like to ask questions and understand others better. People decide what holy book and scholar to follow, I'm not in a position to dictate that. 

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