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Ruqaya101

[Closed/Review]Being Muslim and Gay

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Guest Questione
2 minutes ago, notme said:

Anyway, having a tendency toward homosexuality is not a sin. It is only a sin to have intimate relations outside of marriage. 

Do you believe Allah created people with inclination to the same Gender, and then at the same time, condemned them in the Qur'an for not going after the opposite gender who were more pure for them? 

Furthermore, those who have tendencies, should they be told that is how Allah made them, and should efforts to undergo therapy or something of this sort be regarded as barbaric? Should the advice they should be given is to remain celibate their entire lives?

Obviously, Islam considers it a far greater sin to have homosexual intercourse compared to heterosexual intercourse outside of marriage (assuming the parties are not married already). The punishments according to Islamic scholars are far harsher to put it mildly with the former. This isn't merely just having sex outside of marriage though that is condemned, and Islam appears to make clear distinction in condemning same sex relationships.

Obviously I am only interested in theory, we should treat everyone fairly and equally, whatever their identities. 

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Guest Questione
1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

From the Qur'an, we learn that homosexuality emerged at the time of Lut. Before the time of the people of Lut, no other people had committed such abomination. 

 

Well, what would you say to what appears to be a growing consensus among the scientific community that homosexuality in large part appears to be caused by nature? Before Lot, no-one with this predisposition tried to act on it, yet we had people acting on other predispositions ? 

 

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1 minute ago, Guest Questione said:

Do you believe Allah created people with inclination to the same Gender, and then at the same time, condemned them in the Qur'an for not going after the opposite gender who were more pure for them? 

Yes. 

And some people have an inherent tendency toward hotheadedness, some toward cowardice, some toward laziness, some toward greed. We all have our trials; nobody will be given a burden greater than they can bear. They're probably at least partly genetic and partially caused by environmental influences, but neither influence negates free will. 

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Guest Questione
1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

We learn, according to a n authentic narration, that it appeared due to Shaitan's direct involvement. A group of boys were sitting while Shaitan shape-shifted to look like a woman. She joined them and excited them. Once the boys were sexually aroused and intoxicated by their arousal, Shaitan leaves and the boys continue among themselves. This is the birth of homosexuality!

 

Brother, I would be careful about taking even singular Saheeh narrations. We have Hasan/Saheeh narrations telling us humanity descended from the children of heavenly Houris and Adam's children. We have narrations telling us the Earth rests on the back of a whale as another example. 

Why isn't Shaitan making anymore direct involvements? He seemed to be making quite the appearances back in the day, but seems to not be found in terms of direct appearances these days?

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Guest Questione
2 minutes ago, notme said:

Yes. 

And some people have an inherent tendency toward hotheadedness, some toward cowardice, some toward laziness, some toward greed. We all have our trials; nobody will be given a burden greater than they can bear. They're probably at least partly genetic and partially caused by environmental influences, but neither influence negates free will. 

Do you believe they then have the free-will to undergo therapy or overtime, 'correct' themselves and have heterosexual relationships? Why does Lot in the Qur'an tell those practising homosexuality that women are more pure for them, if Allah has made them having no desire for women and no chance to develop desire through mental work?

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Guest Questione
4 minutes ago, notme said:

Yes. 

And some people have an inherent tendency toward hotheadedness, some toward cowardice, some toward laziness, some toward greed. We all have our trials; nobody will be given a burden greater than they can bear. They're probably at least partly genetic and partially caused by environmental influences, but neither influence negates free will. 

Would you advise someone who said they were gay that they were born that way, Allah made them gay, they should remain celibate and any attempts to kindle opposite-sex attractions are unhealthy and cruel, and that this is their test?

Asking to clarify, so I don't misunderstand you. 

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1 minute ago, Guest Questione said:

Do you believe they then have the free-will to undergo therapy or overtime, 'correct' themselves and have heterosexual relationships? Why does Lot in the Qur'an tell those practising homosexuality that women are more pure for them, if Allah has made them having no desire for women and no chance to develop desire through mental work?

Homosexuality is not the same as transsexuality, through the two conditions often coexist. 

If a transgendered person is allowed by their marja to get corrective surgery, who am I to say it's wrong? 

Scientific studies have indicated that there as a bell curve of tendency toward homosexual desires. Some homosexual people will never desire the opposite gender. They must practice patience, if they wish to avoid sin. If a person might feel some attraction toward the opposite gender, and they want to, they can pursue that. It needs to be their own choice, made as a sane and competent adult. 

5 minutes ago, Guest Questione said:

Would you advise someone who said they were gay that they were born that way, Allah made them gay, they should remain celibate and any attempts to kindle opposite-sex attractions are unhealthy and cruel, and that this is their test?

Asking to clarify, so I don't misunderstand you. 

It needs to be their own choice. If they stay celibate or if they marry a person of the opposite gender, either will require patience and difficulties. Having never been in this situation, I can't advise. 

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11 minutes ago, Guest Questione said:

Well, what would you say to what appears to be a growing consensus among the scientific community that homosexuality in large part appears to be caused by nature? Before Lot, no-one with this predisposition tried to act on it, yet we had people acting on other predispositions ? 

 

First, scientific community is a corrigible community, with new information, new discoveries, their views and theories change. Divine revelation is eternal and unchanging.

Second, as I stated, before Lut's people, nature didn't play a role. After Lut's people, it may. 

11 minutes ago, Guest Questione said:

Brother, I would be careful about taking even singular Saheeh narrations. We have Hasan/Saheeh narrations telling us humanity descended from the children of heavenly Houris and Adam's children. We have narrations telling us the Earth rests on the back of a whale as another example. 

Why isn't Shaitan making anymore direct involvements? He seemed to be making quite the appearances back in the day, but seems to not be found in terms of direct appearances these days?

I am very careful. Our incomplete or lack of understanding of a narration doesn't render it incorrect. It just means we'd need more time, experience, and information to understand it.

Shaitan can and may be directly involved in many things. However, we wouldn't know it, since it can shape-shift to a figure that is not suspicious to us. We only know about Shaitan's involvement in this case because of the narration informing us about it. There's a good chance that the youth, who were tricked by Shaitan into homosexuality, didn't know that that woman was Shaitan. 

 

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Guest Questione
6 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

First, scientific community is a corrigible community, with new information, new discoveries, their views and theories change. Divine revelation is eternal and unchanging.

 Second, as I stated, before Lut's people, nature didn't play a role. After Lut's people, it may. 

Would you say the position which claims Allah created people who are homosexual and have no chance of having any attraction of the opposite sex valid according to the Qur'an?

 

 

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Guest Questione
41 minutes ago, notme said:

Sins and effects are not the same thing. A child certainly does bear the burden of an abusive parent, though the child is blameless. 

Anyway, having a tendency toward homosexuality is not a sin. It is only a sin to have intimate relations outside of marriage. 

This was on the news a decade ago: http://news.bbc.co.United Kingdom/1/hi/world/middle_east/4915172.stm

"Islam considers homosexuality sinful. A website published in the Iranian city of Qom in the name of Ayatollah Sistani, Iraq's most revered Shia cleric, says: "Those who commit sodomy must be killed in the harshest way".

 

Ayatollah Sistani
Sistani's official website calls for gay men to be executed

The statement appears in Arabic section of the website, in a section dealing with questions of morality, but not in the English-language equivalent.

The BBC asked Mr. Sistani's representative, Seyed Kashmiri, to explain the ruling. 

"Homosexuals and lesbians are not killed for practising their inclinations for the first time," Mr. Kashmiri said in a response sent via email.

"There are certain conditions drawn out by jurists before this punishment can be implemented, which is perhaps similar to the punishment meted out by other heavenly religions." 

Mr. Kashmiri added: "Some rulings that are drawn out by jurists are done so on a theoretical basis. Not everything that is said is implemented."

 

 

 

How do we explain this to our non-Muslim friends if they bring it up? So tendency aside, what if someone asks us about what our view is to those who practise it? We talk about freedom and liberty, but how do we explain this?

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24 minutes ago, Guest Questione said:

Would you say the position which claims Allah created people who are homosexual and have no chance of having any attraction of the opposite sex valid according to the Qur'an?

 

 

No.

Homosexuality cannot be considered a sin, if people aren't capable of not being homosexuals. 

However, it is sin, without a doubt. Therefore, people are capable of not being homosexuals.

Furthermore, it's important to make a distinction between desires and actions. Due to possible natural reasons, some people may have inclinations towards homosexuality, but as long as they don't act upon those inclinations, they're not sinning. 

So, when we discuss homosexuality being sinful, we mean homosexual acts, such as sodomy between two men. 

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In my opinion, we know that everything Allah creates is perfect, therefore it is impossible that people are born gay. 

Other explanations?

1) The nurture argument, where I live the LGBT community is not shunned but they are actually promoted and encouraged to go on. It will even be compulsory to teach children that "some people have 2 mommies or 2 daddies". It is undeniable that some people have been (unintentionally perhaps) made to think that they are gay. 

2) Allah's test? While it is a fact that you cannot be born gay that does not mean that some people can be tested with homosexual lust and if a believer has prays sincerely they should have every hope that Allah will help them. 

3) Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام): It is a well known sign for the reapppeance of our awaited Imam, maybe the rise of homosexuality was bound to happen and it's just unexplainable... 

Also: Evidence that genetics do not affect sexual orientation: If genetics did effect sexual orientation then there would be gay people evenly distributed over the world but that is not the case simply because the environment has impact not biology. Scientists themselves have admitted that "gay genes" do not actually make you gay. And no research has gone into researching genes at birth but only after puberty, it could just be that these minor mutations happen during puberty AND NOT AT BIRTH as a result of the environment their brain becomes influenced in the wrong way. There is still a lot we don't know about the human body so no biological theory is scientific unless it can be falsified and in the "gay gene" case, they have a really weak theory which just looks at correlation and concordance.

Any questions ask. 

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20 hours ago, Guest Questione said:

One thing that confuses me is what stance Islam takes. 

1. Does Allah create people without them having any desire and no fair way to exercise their desires I.e gay people?

What would you say about people born with certain physical abnormalities that make it impossible for them to find a spouse? Or simply those who for whatever reason can’t find someone to marry them? Should they then try to obtain sex by any means necessary simply to fulfil their needs?

Homosexuals are not the only people who are in situations where they can’t lawfully fulfil their desires. And by the way, most homosexuals could have a relationship with members of the opposite sex if they wanted to. It may not be their preferred choice, but they could do it, as many homosexuals are now acknowledging.

20 hours ago, Guest Questione said:

2. Is being gay heavily influenced by nurture and also choice and exposure?

Like most things, it’s probably a mixture or nature and nurture. Although an interesting question, it’s not really that relevant to the legality or morality of something. The fact that something may be ‘natural’ doesn’t make it moral.

 

20 hours ago, Guest Questione said:

People in the past would have overwhelmingly sided with 2. Now that we are all becoming more liberalised and uniting with the left, many now go with 1, like the Christians have done.

Why would we want to unite with the left, when they hate everything we stand for? They seek to unite with us out of a desire to attack what they perceive to be a common enemy, but make no mistake, sooner or later they will no longer tolerate orthodox Islam.

20 hours ago, Guest Questione said:

Given Shia Islam allows sex changes (I.e. Allah can create people in the wrong bodies for them) what is to say he can't create people without any desire for the opposite sex?

Who says ‘Shia Islam’ allows such a thing? Certain scholars may allow it, but I have yet to see any conclusive proof of that.

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Guest de trout

The way I see it, there's a big difference between a homosexual that indulges in his urges, and one that controls himself and is fearful of God. Our sexuality does not have as much power over us as we think, asking a homosexual to just not have gay sex is not asking for much. I've heard of many cases where heterosexual men develop homosexual tastes, because after years of pornography they got bored and started to look for novel things. If sexuality is plastic, why can't homosexuals at least strive to be bisexual? That's just my opinion, but what isn't my opinion is that God is completely fair, He wouldn't just put these men in a hopeless situation where there's absolutely nothing they can do to go to heaven.

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On 6/2/2019 at 5:04 PM, starlight said:

but he is older

This, sister @starlight. Precisely this. For me, speaking with older gays is like speaking to myself in the future.

To LGBT Muslims:

I was holier than the Pope when I was younger, I have said it a few times in this forum. Never missed the night prayers. And ended up sleeping with men. So I pretty much know the dangers of repression and dishonesty in the path to God. And neither the night prayers nor the best aamal nor the most severe discipline will protect you. For me, it just delayed what was unevitable when you aren't honest to yourself. And lack of honesty is the most common and dangerous quality in our unwelcomed condition. This has nothing to do with unmarried straight struggles. They are unfortunate to find no love in their lives, but not unfortunate to lie to themselves. This is an entirely different thing that eats your faith slowly but decisively.

Thus, I don't pretend to be naive, nor give hope to hopeless people. If you are gay, or bi, or trans, don't expect to change. Science has found no room for change in such conditions, and we don't deserve to push ourselves into something impossible. Life's short and valuable enough not to lose our time in mirages. Because that's what "therapy" for us is, a (dangerous and unhealthy) mirage. A lie constantly told to ourselves until we believe in it. But a year or two, if any, after such "treatment", we will end up being honest to ourselves, and may end up sleeping with all the men we haven't slept with during the last years. We humans are a disgrace when it comes to battling the nafs. And we who have desires for the same sex aren't any different from the rest of people. We are a disgrace as much as the rest. The real value relies in honesty. Some may try to play games with religion to make it look more progressive than it seems (when actually it is anything but progressive, and believing in Islam is rather hard, especially nowaday). Others acknowledge the sin, and may do more or less efforts to avoid it, successfully or not. The first group leaves Islam or turn into hypocrites creating fitna, the second group sins.

As a Muslim, I surrender to God's message and laws. As a human, I have my doubts and struggles, which I have no shame in sharing, because I can't hide those questions and doubts from God. So what's the point in being a liar? To show myself as an "ex-Gay"? To the hell with that joke and lie that do more harm than anything. You don't have to be a Muslim to realize the dangers and harm that such a lie does. And for what? So that a bunch of ignorant straight Muslims tell you "wow, mashaAllah, you did it!"? I can't care less about straights, they never cared about us until recently, when we spoke out. So yeah, I do believe in LGBT activism, but that doesn't mean I approve or support ALL LGBT activism. What I share here in ShiaChat is no different than some sort of activism, after all, even if it helps just a few people.

If there is one thing we are sure about is that celibacy is a choice. And that being gay or bi isn't haram. So let's not make things any harder than they already are. Let people be like they are, behave like they want, and choose celibacy as a lawful good path to live a committed Islamic life. This guarantees a possible path that any homosexual Muslim can choose.

Edited by Bakir

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On 6/2/2019 at 10:37 PM, Guest theObserver said:

Imam Jaffar Sadiq says "the sin you do affects SEVEN generations after you" so things your predecessor did somehow find itself in your gene pool and is now bothering you with a natural feel, and your basically left to clean up after their mistakes

Do these things bring any wisdom or help on such threads? For real... Can we stop with this?

I or someone like me isn't going to feel any better because some random unknown grandfather did God knows what in the past and that made us gay. It's not as pointless as the "gay worm" theory but still, pointless.

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^Brother @Bakir has given you excellent advice, OP, and in fact, I’d recommend it as well.

My sister-in-law is a lesbian (not officially “out”, but we all know.) and she left Islam because she couldn’t deal with the guilt anymore. And she was the most pious out of the family. Everyone told her, “Be as sinful as you want, but at least believe in Islam.” But she couldn’t handle the guilt, so she left the religion.

Celibacy is truly the only way. If you marry a woman (when you’re gay) you’re not fully committing to her. Sure, you might have children, but you likely will be stuck doing what you don’t want to be doing. No one deserves that. 

 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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14 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Everyone told her, “Be as sinful as you want, but at least believe in Islam.” But she couldn’t handle the guilt, so she left the religion.

That's what I fear most in these cases sister. We should always leave the door open if we take distance from Islam, whether it be due to guilt or due to a necessary self-exploration/discovery.

We are a disgrace, yes, but we aren't here to believe in ourselves, but to believe in God. If sins bring anything good, that is being humble, especially towards God. And in that position is when you truly may experience the sweetest connections and experiences that faith has to offer. It is not a surprise that there is a hadith that says that Allah allows (in the sense that let us have free will) the believer to sin in order to avoid pride to grow within his heart.

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Guest Akhi
5 hours ago, Bakir said:

This, sister @starlight. Precisely this. For me, speaking with older gays is like speaking to myself in the future.

To LGBT Muslims:

I was holier than the Pope when I was younger, I have said it a few times in this forum. Never missed the night prayers. And ended up sleeping with men. So I pretty much know the dangers of repression and dishonesty in the path to God. And neither the night prayers nor the best aamal nor the most severe discipline will protect you. For me, it just delayed what was unevitable when you aren't honest to yourself. And lack of honesty is the most common and dangerous quality in our unwelcomed condition. This has nothing to do with unmarried straight struggles. They are unfortunate to find no love in their lives, but not unfortunate to lie to themselves. This is an entirely different thing that eats your faith slowly but decisively.

Thus, I don't pretend to be naive, nor give hope to hopeless people. If you are gay, or bi, or trans, don't expect to change. Science has found no room for change in such conditions, and we don't deserve to push ourselves into something impossible. Life's short and valuable enough not to lose our time in mirages. Because that's what "therapy" for us is, a (dangerous and unhealthy) mirage. A lie constantly told to ourselves until we believe in it. But a year or two, if any, after such "treatment", we will end up being honest to ourselves, and may end up sleeping with all the men we haven't slept with during the last years. We humans are a disgrace when it comes to battling the nafs. And we who have desires for the same sex aren't any different from the rest of people. We are a disgrace as much as the rest. The real value relies in honesty. Some may try to play games with religion to make it look more progressive than it seems (when actually it is anything but progressive, and believing in Islam is rather hard, especially nowaday). Others acknowledge the sin, and may do more or less efforts to avoid it, successfully or not. The first group leaves Islam or turn into hypocrites creating fitna, the second group sins.

As a Muslim, I surrender to God's message and laws. As a human, I have my doubts and struggles, which I have no shame in sharing, because I can't hide those questions and doubts from God. So what's the point in being a liar? To show myself as an "ex-Gay"? To the hell with that joke and lie that do more harm than anything. You don't have to be a Muslim to realize the dangers and harm that such a lie does. And for what? So that a bunch of ignorant straight Muslims tell you "wow, mashaAllah, you did it!"? I can't care less about straights, they never cared about us until recently, when we spoke out. So yeah, I do believe in LGBT activism, but that doesn't mean I approve or support ALL LGBT activism. What I share here in ShiaChat is no different than some sort of activism, after all, even if it helps just a few people.

If there is one thing we are sure about is that celibacy is a choice. And that being gay or bi isn't haram. So let's not make things any harder than they already are. Let people be like they are, behave like they want, and choose celibacy as a lawful good path to live a committed Islamic life. This guarantees a possible path that any homosexual Muslim can choose.

Could some of the elders on this site like @Abu Hadi assess the claims of this brother, that Allah creates people with no other choice and no way out in terms of having same-sex attractions, and the advice he is giving to brothers that this is how Allah wanted them to be and that they should remain celibate? Can knowledgable brothers and sisters clarify whether this advice is consistent with the Qur'an and claims of Islam?

I would argue it is probably an obligation, given the mirage of claims made here.

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Guest Akhi
On 6/2/2019 at 4:04 PM, starlight said:

He is someone who is facing the same issue as the OP,but he is older and does not believe in acting upon these feelings so I think he is best person to understand what the brother is going through and offer him some support.

I happened to be part of a discussion on homosexuality in which a well known scholar and lecturer were also present. In a nutshell, the scholars in the west have not been able to come up with a workable solution to this so far even though they have been trying a few things(which I don't want to mention here because that would completely derail the thread). 

The advice he has just given are in violation of what our scholars teach and in violation of the Qur'an. 

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On 6/4/2019 at 9:26 PM, Bakir said:

This, sister @starlight. Precisely this. For me, speaking with older gays is like speaking to myself in the future.

To LGBT Muslims:

I was holier than the Pope when I was younger, I have said it a few times in this forum. Never missed the night prayers. And ended up sleeping with men. So I pretty much know the dangers of repression and dishonesty in the path to God. And neither the night prayers nor the best aamal nor the most severe discipline will protect you. For me, it just delayed what was unevitable when you aren't honest to yourself. And lack of honesty is the most common and dangerous quality in our unwelcomed condition. This has nothing to do with unmarried straight struggles. They are unfortunate to find no love in their lives, but not unfortunate to lie to themselves. This is an entirely different thing that eats your faith slowly but decisively.

Thus, I don't pretend to be naive, nor give hope to hopeless people. If you are gay, or bi, or trans, don't expect to change. Science has found no room for change in such conditions, and we don't deserve to push ourselves into something impossible. Life's short and valuable enough not to lose our time in mirages. Because that's what "therapy" for us is, a (dangerous and unhealthy) mirage. A lie constantly told to ourselves until we believe in it. But a year or two, if any, after such "treatment", we will end up being honest to ourselves, and may end up sleeping with all the men we haven't slept with during the last years. We humans are a disgrace when it comes to battling the nafs. And we who have desires for the same sex aren't any different from the rest of people. We are a disgrace as much as the rest. The real value relies in honesty. Some may try to play games with religion to make it look more progressive than it seems (when actually it is anything but progressive, and believing in Islam is rather hard, especially nowaday). Others acknowledge the sin, and may do more or less efforts to avoid it, successfully or not. The first group leaves Islam or turn into hypocrites creating fitna, the second group sins.

As a Muslim, I surrender to God's message and laws. As a human, I have my doubts and struggles, which I have no shame in sharing, because I can't hide those questions and doubts from God. So what's the point in being a liar? To show myself as an "ex-Gay"? To the hell with that joke and lie that do more harm than anything. You don't have to be a Muslim to realize the dangers and harm that such a lie does. And for what? So that a bunch of ignorant straight Muslims tell you "wow, mashaAllah, you did it!"? I can't care less about straights, they never cared about us until recently, when we spoke out. So yeah, I do believe in LGBT activism, but that doesn't mean I approve or support ALL LGBT activism. What I share here in ShiaChat is no different than some sort of activism, after all, even if it helps just a few people.

If there is one thing we are sure about is that celibacy is a choice. And that being gay or bi isn't haram. So let's not make things any harder than they already are. Let people be like they are, behave like they want, and choose celibacy as a lawful good path to live a committed Islamic life. This guarantees a possible path that any homosexual Muslim can choose.

I don't disagree with the content, necessarily, but I disagree with your presentation of the issue. You have to understand how what you post affects other people, especially the younger brothers and sisters who are reading this.

To the younger brothers and sisters who are confused / struggling with this issue. 

1. YOU ARE NOT GAY, TRANS, BI, (whatever label they come up with next week). YOU ARE NOT DEFINED, AS A HUMAN BEING, BY YOUR PARTICULAR INCLINATION TOWARD A SPECIFIC TYPE OF SIN. 

So to say you will never become an 'EX-GAY', that is true, you were never GAY in the first place. 

You have to understand the context in which this 'You are GAY' message is being pushed and promoted. The secular government, big banks, lawyers, corporations have benefited financially from the breakup of the family in Western Society. Western Society, in general, outside these group hasn't benefited at all. Let me break this down a little further, 

As a family falls apart, in the West, they generate a large amount of income for lawyers whom they pay legal fees to represent their interest in divorce court. When they are separated, the nuclear family, many times one income, now becomes two incomes, because now the husband and the wife are both working, buying two refrigerators instead of one, two tvs instead of one, two cars instead of one, and both are paying income and other taxes instead of one. When you have a society that is mostly individuals and couples instead of larger families, they consume more, go into more debt, pay more interest, and pay more in taxes and legal fees. They also tend to consume more haram, like alcohol and weed, which is now legal in most places and heavily taxed by the government (which was the whole point in making it legal). There is a great video on this by Sheik Abdul Ghani, if you want more details

So, In my humble opinion, there is no difference between promotion of LGBTQ lifestyles, mainstreaming of pornography, mainstreaming of adultry, etc. They all serve the same purpose, which is the destruction of the family, which benefits certain specific groups in society (named above) so they promote this, some behind the scenes and some openly. These are the Kuffar, the ones who are ungrateful for the blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

But all of this has nothing to do with us, as Muslims. We should recognize that this is going on, but at the same time stay out of it. We, as Muslims, are defined, by our Belief in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), belief in Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h), Belief in Wilayat of Imams of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), Belief in our Living Imam(a.f.s), Al Qaim, and our attempt to live our life according to the teaching and practices of the former. We all have proclivities toward certain specific types of sins, but this is our test, this is not 'us'. We attempt to overcome our proclivities, we sometimes succeed and sometimes fail, but when we fail, we go through the process of Tauba, then continue with our attempt to follow the examples that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given us in the Prophet(p.b.u.h) and Imams((عليه السلام)). As long as we keep our beliefs, go through the process of Tauba, and attempt to live our life by our examples, we are Muslim/a, not hypocrites or kuffar or fasiq. We only become the former when we give up hope, and thus give up our beliefs and our attempts, however perfect or imperfect. We are all the same in this. This is who we are. 

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Guest Akhi
14 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

I don't disagree with the content, necessarily, but I disagree with your presentation of the issue. You have to understand how what you post affects other people, especially the younger brothers and sisters who are reading this.

To the younger brothers and sisters who are confused / struggling with this issue. 

1. YOU ARE NOT GAY, TRANS, BI, (whatever label they come up with next week). YOU ARE NOT DEFINED, AS A HUMAN BEING, BY YOUR PARTICULAR INCLINATION TOWARD A SPECIFIC TYPE OF SIN. 

So to say you will never become an 'EX-GAY', that is true, you were never GAY in the first place. 

You have to understand the context in which this 'You are GAY' message is being pushed and promoted. The secular government, big banks, lawyers, corporations have benefited financially from the breakup of the family in Western Society. Western Society, in general, outside these group hasn't benefited at all. Let me break this down a little further, 

As a family falls apart, in the West, they generate a large amount of income for lawyers whom they pay legal fees to represent their interest in divorce court. When they are separated, the nuclear family, many times one income, now becomes two incomes, because now the husband and the wife are both working, buying two refrigerators instead of one, two tvs instead of one, two cars instead of one, and both are paying income and other taxes instead of one. When you have a society that is mostly individuals and couples instead of larger families, they consume more, go into more debt, pay more interest, and pay more in taxes and legal fees. They also tend to consume more haram, like alcohol and weed, which is now legal in most places and heavily taxed by the government (which was the whole point in making it legal). 

So, In my humble opinion, there is no difference between promotion of LGBTQ lifestyles, mainstreaming of pornography, mainstreaming of adultry, etc. They all serve the same purpose, which is the destruction of the family, which benefits certain specific groups in society (named above) so they promote this, some behind the scenes and some openly. These are the Kuffar, the ones who are ungrateful for the blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

But all of this has nothing to do with us, as Muslims. We should recognize that this is going on, but at the same time stay out of it. We, as Muslims, are defined, by our Belief in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), belief in Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h), Belief in Wilayat of Imams of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), Belief in our Living Imam(a.f.s), Al Qaim, and our attempt to live our life according to the teaching and practices of the former. We all have proclivities toward certain specific types of sins, but this is our test, this is not 'us'. We attempt to overcome our proclivities, we sometimes succeed and sometimes fail, but when we fail, we go through the process of Tauba, then continue with our attempt to follow the examples that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given us in the Prophet(p.b.u.h) and Imams((عليه السلام)). As long as we keep our beliefs, go through the process of Tauba, and attempt to live our life by our examples, we are Muslim/a, not hypocrites or kuffar or fasiq. We only become the former when we give up hope, and thus give up our beliefs and our attempts, however perfect or imperfect. We are all the same in this. This is who we are. 

 

May Allah reward you abundantly. 

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You are not defined by your orientation but words can describe your orientation. If you say you are gay you are describing your orientation, not your entire being. If others choose to interpret it as the defining characteristic of a person, that is for them to sort out, even though it is also amplifies the issues gay people experience (lack of acceptance and understanding = bigger problems than orientation). It had nothing whatsoever to do with banks and corporations. I don't wish to be rude but that post is nonsense.

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@Abu Hadi most of us see global capitalism as an enemy, but to justify the LGBT "creation" with capitalism is inconsistent. Straight couples produce the most valuable asset for capitalism, which is workforce (and what's more crazy, they do it for free in most countries). In no economic system will LGBT couples be more adequate than straight ones. If any, promotion of LGBT values by big corporations is the result of the continuous activism done in the latest decades. Companies like nickelodeon that banned series for having a gay character, for instance, now tweet their logo in rainbow colors. They are late and desperate for our money. I believe that this point you shared needs a more holistic approach to make sense.

In the other hand, words are important. @Klanky has brought a good point. However I would also add that these words define a community, which is necessary for actual activism. And I already put a very sensitive, real, important example of activism against a massacre occured in Iraq, that even one of the marjas that most of us follow has contributed to. So from whom shall we expect justice, compassion and attention when even marjas contribute, with their words, to the creation of death squads that chase and kill us in the streets of Iraq? Homophobia won't be stopped by saying that the word "gay" doesn't exist. We don't live in a phantasy world @Abu Hadi. You may care about people like us, but such ideas you shared here show rather the contrary. I believe many of you are way too focused on the bad things in the Western LGBT community that don't even stop to think about the Muslim LGBT people, and what's worse, encourage them to continue being invisible.

If I feared my posts would lead someone to haram, I wouldn't post them. But my posts aren't going to make anyone gay, nor bi nor trans. ShiaChat would be in rainbow colors if I had that secret special power. I've talked with more than enough gay Muslims/ex-Muslims to understand the potential effects of my words, and if they make any sense or help in any way. When I was younger, I wish I had someone who told me I was ok. Many would not take distance from religion if we just were more tolerant and understanding, because guilt, nonsense and hate are reasons for many to leave Islam. In some way, Hadi, I think you are too worried about confused kids, I'm more concerned about those who are on the fence or have already left Islam. You won't save those confused kids from being on the fence, it's a matter of time, and I have no interest in delaying the doubts and struggles they will end up facing by telling them everythibg they feel and identify with is a lie made up by capitalism. That's a fairytale.

Edited by Bakir

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@Abu Hadi

Gay activism doesn't come from capitalism. Capitalism just capitalizes on it, like they do with everything. I think gay activism, at least in the US, comes from the Civil Rights Movement and the AIDS epidemic, but I may be mistaken. 

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3 minutes ago, notme said:

AIDS epidemIc

Mostly this. This promoted the creation and impulse of the most relevant gay activist groups.

Gay activism in the West served an important and necessary purpose. A major part of it, imo, is deviated nowaday, but many people still do an awesome job in educating society and warn against homophobia.

In Iraq, in the other part, they are killed on the streets under suspicion of being homosexual. And they proudly call it "cleansing". Some do also face torture. Where is the purity and decency in killing a gay guy on the streets and write a letter with his blood to his mother telling her he has got purified. Where is the decency in allowing a mother to find her son corpse tortured, as was the case of Azhar al-Saeed who said "We found his body with signs of torture, his anus filled with glue and without his genitals," she said. "I will carry this image with me until my dying day."

LGBT activism is necessary in this country of monsters, especially when religious authorities seem to be on their side.

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2 hours ago, Bakir said:

@Abu Hadi most of us see global capitalism as an enemy, but to justify the LGBT "creation" with capitalism is inconsistent. Straight couples produce the most valuable asset for capitalism, which is workforce (and what's more crazy, they do it for free in most countries). In no economic system will LGBT couples be more adequate than straight ones. If any, promotion of LGBT values by big corporations is the result of the continuous activism done in the latest decades. Companies like nickelodeon that banned series for having a gay character, for instance, now tweet their logo in rainbow colors. They are late and desperate for our money. I believe that this point you shared needs a more holistic approach to make sense.

In the other hand, words are important. @Klanky has brought a good point. However I would also add that these words define a community, which is necessary for actual activism. And I already put a very sensitive, real, important example of activism against a massacre occured in Iraq, that even one of the marjas that most of us follow has contributed to. So from whom shall we expect justice, compassion and attention when even marjas contribute, with their words, to the creation of death squads that chase and kill us in the streets of Iraq? Homophobia won't be stopped by saying that the word "gay" doesn't exist. We don't live in a phantasy world @Abu Hadi. You may care about people like us, but such ideas you shared here show rather the contrary. I believe many of you are way too focused on the bad things in the Western LGBT community that don't even stop to think about the Muslim LGBT people, and what's worse, encourage them to continue being invisible.

If I feared my posts would lead someone to haram, I wouldn't post them. But my posts aren't going to make anyone gay, nor bi nor trans. ShiaChat would be in rainbow colors if I had that secret special power. I've talked with more than enough gay Muslims/ex-Muslims to understand the potential effects of my words, and if they make any sense or help in any way. When I was younger, I wish I had someone who told me I was ok. Many would not take distance from religion if we just were more tolerant and understanding, because guilt, nonsense and hate are reasons for many to leave Islam. In some way, Hadi, I think you are too worried about confused kids, I'm more concerned about those who are on the fence or have already left Islam. You won't save those confused kids from being on the fence, it's a matter of time, and I have no interest in delaying the doubts and struggles they will end up facing by telling them everythibg they feel and identify with is a lie made up by capitalism. That's a fairytale.

Iam not saying your words will make anyone 'gay'. What I am saying is that you need to think about how your words will be received by young brothers and sisters who are confused about this issue and heavily influenced by global corporate propoganda

As for my point about the certain groups in society that benefit from this phenomenon, it seems that many did not read my entire post and were only considering this point in regards to 'gay' lifestyle promotion. My point was a general point regarding larger family units( mother, father' children) vs couples and individuals. Any social phenomenon which breaks down families into smaller units benefits these specific groups because these groups get more money through taxes, interest, profits, etc. 'Gay' promotion is just one of these phenomenon, not the only one I mentioned. So larger family units make society more stable but run counter to the interest of those specific groups. So they only promote social phenomenon which align with their interests. But these phenomenon are not in the interest of society in general, even non Muslim society. I thought that was obvious

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2 hours ago, Bakir said:

LGBT activism is necessary in this country of monsters, especially when religious authorities seem to be on their side.

What do you think about statements like this:http://news.bbc.co.United Kingdom/1/hi/world/middle_east/4915172.stm

 

Islam considers homosexuality sinful. A website published in the Iranian city of Qom in the name of Ayatollah Sistani, Iraq's most revered Shia cleric, says: "Those who commit sodomy must be killed in the harshest way".

 

Ayatollah Sistani
Sistani's official website calls for gay men to be executed

The statement appears in Arabic section of the website, in a section dealing with questions of morality, but not in the English-language equivalent.

The BBC asked Mr. Sistani's representative, Seyed Kashmiri, to explain the ruling. 

"Homosexuals and lesbians are not killed for practising their inclinations for the first time," Mr. Kashmiri said in a response sent via email.

"There are certain conditions drawn out by jurists before this punishment can be implemented, which is perhaps similar to the punishment meted out by other heavenly religions." 

Mr. Kashmiri added: "Some rulings that are drawn out by jurists are done so on a theoretical basis. Not everything that is said is implemented."

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36 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

Iam not saying your words will make anyone 'gay'. What I am saying is that you need to think about how your words will be received by young brothers and sisters who are confused about this issue and heavily influenced by global corporate propoganda

As for my point about the certain groups in society that benefit from this phenomenon, it seems that many did not read my entire post and were only considering this point in regards to 'gay' lifestyle promotion. My point was a general point regarding larger family units( mother, father' children) vs couples and individuals. Any social phenomenon which breaks down families into smaller units benefits these specific groups because these groups get more money through taxes, interest, profits, etc. 'Gay' promotion is just one of these phenomenon, not the only one I mentioned. So larger family units make society more stable but run counter to the interest of those specific groups. So they only promote social phenomenon which align with their interests. But these phenomenon are not in the interest of society in general, even non Muslim society. I thought that was obvious

If my words don't turn anyone into gay, nor are promoting the so called "gay lifestyle", I don't really know what part of it contributes to youths' confusion.

I got your point on family units, but still, as I said before, it seemed inconsistent. At first, your point seemed to link capitalism to the creation and promotion of the LGBT movement, and even, to certain exent, to the increase of the amount of LGBT people in society. Correct me if I'm wrong as your point was very vague for me and I just could guess this is what you were implying. Thus I replied to you that it is against capitalism's interest to promote homosexual couples, as they don't produce the most valuable capitalistic asset, which is workforce. The idea of smaller family units is irrelevant to the LGBT topic, as there cannot be naturally bigger homosexual families (except for adoption). And year after year, more countries are allowing gay couples to adopt, so I don't really see a promotion of smaller families.

I think I'm assuming way too much from what you say anyway @Abu Hadi (I'm sadly an impatient person lol). Would be better for this debate to make your points more clear so I don't unjustly assume you said things you didn't want to say.

In any case, if capitalism and corporations had the real power over people's sexual orientation, there wouldn't be gays in the world, it is against their interest and against the way capitalism works (uncontrollable and constant growth). Also, Soros doesn't represent capitalism or world powers, lets leave conspiracy theories aside.

Edited by Bakir

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Guest 4 segments of a bird

Allah never explicitly forbids same sex relations in the Qur'an but anybody that tells you what Allâh does and doesn’t condone is false unless they are directly quoting. They are presuming to delimit Allah’s love. blasphemous arrogance led them to where they are and they worship their own image in place of Allah which is far more of a sin than anything. You do not need other’s interpretation of the Qur'an, as Allâh is competent above all else

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11 hours ago, Guest Akhi said:

What do you think about statements like this:http://news.bbc.co.United Kingdom/1/hi/world/middle_east/4915172.stm

 

Islam considers homosexuality sinful. A website published in the Iranian city of Qom in the name of Ayatollah Sistani, Iraq's most revered Shia cleric, says: "Those who commit sodomy must be killed in the harshest way".

 

Ayatollah Sistani
Sistani's official website calls for gay men to be executed

The statement appears in Arabic section of the website, in a section dealing with questions of morality, but not in the English-language equivalent.

The BBC asked Mr.... Sistani's representative, Seyed Kashmiri, to explain the ruling. 

"Homosexuals and lesbians are not killed for practising their inclinations for the first time," Mr.... Kashmiri said in a response sent via email.

"There are certain conditions drawn out by jurists before this punishment can be implemented, which is perhaps similar to the punishment meted out by other heavenly religions." 

Mr.... Kashmiri added: "Some rulings that are drawn out by jurists are done so on a theoretical basis. Not everything that is said is implemented."

Sayyed Ali al Sistani had to revoke the fatwa. I was precisely discussing the whole situation around this fatwa in case you didn't notice. This fatwa was, in the first place, an encouragement and impulse for death squads to chase gays on Iraq, without any (islamically legal) proof and killing them by torturing them. Filling their anus with glue (that only surgery would cure it) and inducing them diarrhea is one of the common tortures held against gays in Iraq by these death squads. Al Sistani had to revoke the fatwa after news on dead corpses of gay people become frequent. I'm not sure if it was because of international activism pressure on him or because he realized he contributed through his fatwa to this unjust and ashaming bloodshed that reflect us as complete animals. Of course, al Sistani didn't want death squads to appear (I hope so, at least), but his position in Iraq and the way people interpret his commands is well known, I would have expected him to be more cautious on this issue or, at least, to be faster in revoking that fatwa after seeing its consequences at a social/human level.

His behaviour on this tragic incident forced me to switch to another marja, as in no way I can consider him the most knowledgeable.

Lastly, I should also add that Iraq is a "democracy", not a theocracy. This fatwa system cannot and shouldn't bypass the State and Law in such a way. Killing people in the streets for their sexual orientation is not allowed in Iraq and nowhere in this world.

Edited by Bakir

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On 6/2/2019 at 9:37 PM, Guest theObserver said:

when people of homosexual orientation talk about the difficulties of dealing with homosexual feelings they often forget that its not like heterosexual men have a free ride

its not like its all daisy and roses for heterosexual men/women , they can’t just have sex with any opposite gender that their heart desires

what you are experiencing is the same as what they experiencing, only difference when the pressure and tension reaches its climax, you will literally be able to have sex with a woman even if u have homosexual inclinations, and by doing this u will be correction your natural misalignment 

look you can agree whether ur religious or an atheist that naturally mother nature created man for woman, the sexual organs are opposites and together they are used to reproduce children, not to satisfy a lifestyle of sex, if u put them two poles together what do u get naturally? mother nature answers that questions I.e seriously health issues because ur putting things in places that were not meant for it(excuse my description here)

and we both know that there is all kinds of perversions and deviations that human lust and desire can lead to paedophilia/dedrophilia/necrophilia and the list goes on, so teh "feeling" is not correct just cause it feels a certain way, u have to lead ur body with ur mind not your emotions/feelings/inclinations or it will lead u to hell even on this Earth 

some might argue that today we have science to deal with it so that makes it okay, well look God has promised that those who want to go astray he lets them go astray and lets them use this astray path to accumulate more sins cause they they are damned to a place that is almost impossible to get out of , and some use this excuse to say only reason it was forbidden before was dude to not being able to deal with it I.e the disease part, but hence now we have methods to deal with it so God is okay with it, they argue 

heterosexual men/women also have to fifth these urges as well every day,  ask the men here do their sexual desires and fantasies get satisfied? almost none here do, and I guarantee that their wives will not allow it anyway so what u experience hetro people do as well, they go jst through as much resistance and pain as any other inclination leads to 

the grass isnt greener on the other side

 

and as I said when the tree hits the fan(expression) when the pressure is high u would as a homosexual man be able to have sex with a woman, how do I know this?

(not justifying masturbation just using an argument about human nature)

well everyone has the potential to masturbate, and that is an action that is neither man or woman when they reach a point of difficulty and have no outlet for this issue(not justifying it just using this as an argument that in reality a homosexual person can normalise their intimate relation because if people are able to masturbate then they can also have sex with the correct gender) and with time if the correct outlet is used(I,e opposite gender) it will be corrected instead of nurtured and deformed lusts and inclinations 

im going to quote one more thing here as to WHY homosexuality happens

Imam Jaffar Sadiq says "the sin you do affects SEVEN generations after you" so things your predecessor did somehow find itself in your gene pool and is now bothering you with a natural feel, and your basically left to clean up after their mistakes

God did not create u homosexual, predecessors mistakes and deformed natural correct inclinations whether it is inclination to steal or swear to worship Satan or disbelieve, and God knew that when he put your soul into your body that YOU have the strength to deal with ti and overcome it, and God has promised a great reward for the patient

so be patient and good will come out of it

this life is a test, we are not here on holiday or paradise, we all have some kind of difficulty in our lives, some more than others, just hang in there u seem like a reasonable and controlled person who can overcome this 

 

Sorry, but your post is extremely ignorant. Straight people don't have it as hard as gay people. If you get bullied because you're straight, then you get to say that gay people shouldn't be complaining about their troubles.

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On 6/2/2019 at 3:54 PM, Ali~J said:

Saw this video sometime ago, hope it helps brother. 

No. First of all, he never said how gay sex is somehow worse than extramarital sex. He claimed it was bad because it's outside of marriage, so it's his job to say how gay marriage could be wrong.

He's also saying gay people should control their urges. They can't find love, can't get married, and if they take a wife, they're going to be in a loveless marriage, and that's not fair to anyone.

"I draw the line at somebody who wants to spread this idea and wants other people to follow him." What does that even mean? Oh wait, I know, he's trying to say that gay people shouldn't be out of the closet. Otherwise, that sentence is gibberish.

"Nobody will harm or touch you because we're not allowed to do that". Terrible choice of wording, cause I hope the only reason he's not hurting gay people is because it's illegal.

"We ask Allah to guide us to the straight path" That's so passive aggressive it's unbelievable.

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On 6/2/2019 at 11:53 PM, aaaz1618 said:

Iran allows people to have operations. Yet rather than lead a normal life as a woman, people often end up prostituting themselves for a living.

I believe homosexuality to be heavily influenced by outside factors, and the LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ+ movement definitely so, before the movement half of these definitions did not exist. People just jump on the bandwagon like horny teenagers jumping on the bisexual wagon 10-15 years ago.

Some people even say vaccines cause issues in the DNA, but I don't have the evidence to agree or disagree, so I will leave that to those who do know.

Dear God, you're homophobic and you're an anti-vaxxer?

People are more open about their sexuality because they don't get killed nowadays for being bisexual and gay. It's not a bandwagon, who the heck would choose to be persecuted

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On 6/3/2019 at 1:35 PM, SoRoUsH said:

سلام

From the Qur'an, we learn that homosexuality emerged at the time of Lut. Before the time of the people of Lut, no other people had committed such abomination. 

We learn, according to a n authentic narration, that it appeared due to Shaitan's direct involvement. A group of boys were sitting while Shaitan shape-shifted to look like a woman. She joined them and excited them. Once the boys were sexually aroused and intoxicated by their arousal, Shaitan leaves and the boys continue among themselves. This is the birth of homosexuality!

Their activity, like all activities, must have changed the state of their bodies and minds, which in turn may have affected the genetic material that they passed on. 

So, it's possible that though homosexuality started purely due to sinful activities, it may have continued partially due to "natural" reasons. Some people may be born naturally inclined towards homosexuality, which makes it harder for them to stay away from such sinfulness. 

This being the case, it's important to not assume all homosexuals are so purely because of their choices. Biological and physiological factors may be at play. This should affect how we behave towards them. We should be more empathetic though not accepting of their sins. Homosexuality is never okay like all other sins. 

However, let's not forget that drinking wine and lying and gossiping are considered the worst of sins, and yet we have friends and family members who may very casually and regularly commit such sins, and we do not mistreat them. So, we ought not to mistreat homosexuals but rather pray for their healing and return. 

Homosexuality was definitely around before Lut.

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