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Islam tells us to control our desires, and homosexuality is one of them; if one realises they have feelings towards the same sex, acting upon it is when it becomes haram. The fact that they’re making it seem like Islam normalises it drives me insane.

I don’t get why these people make such claims stating that the Qur'an doesn’t go against homosexuality when it clearly talks about the story of Prophet Lut (عليه السلام) and how men were engaging in lustful actions towards eachother.

It’s now wrong for us to even speak up against homosexuality because the entire majority of the west have accepted it.

 

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Freedom of expression 

 

The enforcement of LGBT on society | Makinations 8

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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In the Noble Qur'an, why does Prophet Lut offer daughters (women) from his nation to the men who were engaging in homosexual acts? There is nothing in the Qur'an that suggests it is a natural desire God uses to test, but it very much appears as though the specific people of Lut were told to go for women. Now, God being all-knowing wouldn't exactly offer men he himself allowed a mutation to exist in, or created it himself such that they are only into men, the chance to be with women of their nation. 

Why would God create male and female and then subject a proportion to the reality that there will never be a halal and fair way for them to fulfil their desires?

It just makes no sense. I don't think sexuality is as clear cut as being predetermined. 

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1 hour ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

There is a whole field of psychology that studies it. There’s also scientific evidence that shows a percentage of people choose to be gay because of hormonal imbalances.

Yes please do provide us with scientific evidences but it won't change my perspective because psychology is influenced by our environment and social contexts. We cannot say that we are genetically engineered to be gay. 

Edited by Murtaza1

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35 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

Islam tells us to control our desires, and homosexuality is one of them; if one realises they have feelings towards the same sex, acting upon it is when it becomes haram. The fact that they’re making it seem like Islam normalises it drives me insane.

I don’t get why these people make such claims stating that the Qur'an doesn’t go against homosexuality when it clearly talks about the story of Prophet Lut (عليه السلام) and how men were engaging in lustful actions towards eachother.

It’s now wrong for us to even speak up against homosexuality because the entire majority of the west have accepted it.

 

We're in the endgame now. The world has changed, and none of us can go back, and sometimes all we can do is our best, and sometimes the best that we can do is start over in our approach. That is adopting Taqqiyah on this issue, and being very careful about how we go about approaching it.  

Unfortunately, Christianity is in free-fall in the western world. Once more, many of these Christians are right-wing and dislike Islam and or Muslims (to an extent and it varies). Our only ally are the left, specifically the radical left, who are pro-homosexuality. We're stuck between a rock and a hard place. 

I'd say perform Taqqiyah on some of these issues, and focus on proving the existence of God and dealing with Atheism first and foremost. Society is only going to continue to go down hill, before Imam al Mahdi - may Allah hasten his reappearance- arrives and deals with this.

We're powerless. Previous generations have failed in dealing with the rise of Atheism and secularism. 

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1 hour ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Fish is filled with estrogen nowadays, imagine what this increased intake of estrogen does to a man.

Also chemical can be manipulated. Happy chemicals such as dopamine can be increased in the brain by eating certain food that contain them or doing certain types of physical or mental activities. Society programs people to require more chemicals. 

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56 minutes ago, Murtaza1 said:

Yes please do provide us with scientific evidences but it won't change my perspective because psychology is influenced by our environment and social contexts. We cannot say that we are genetically engineered to be gay. 

I don’t remember saying people are genetically engineered to be gay. 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/03/000330094644.htm there is a more recent  study that I sent to a brother via PM in this thread, but I have to look through my history.

 

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1 hour ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

I don’t remember saying people are genetically engineered to be gay. 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/03/000330094644.htm there is a more recent  study that I sent to a brother via PM in this thread, but I have to look through my history. Also what I am saying is that we are not enginnered through DNA or some other inborn factor to become gay.

 

yes chemical hormones can effect sexual orientation in the womb but they do not decide preference for mating towards a specific gender. Also what I am saying is that we are not engineered through DNA or any such fixed factor to change our preference towards a certain gender for mating. The change comes later after we are born when we are conditioned by the environment and society we live in. The chemicals exotocyn and vesapressin which are responsible for arousal can be increased through eating certain food or through doing certain activities. So you can't say Allah subhana wa tala created us like this from day one, it is the societies actions that turn people gay. Your example of estrogen is weak. It does not influence preference for the opposite gender. Even if it did that is no excuse to  make such haram acts halal.

Edited by Murtaza1

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5 hours ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

It’s now wrong for us to even speak up against homosexuality because the entire majority of the west have accepted it.

I haven't accepted it! I know it is sin, but I believe the Bible teaches it isn't greater than another sin. Nevertheless, it degrades one's body and one's mind. And it is defiant towards God, because He speaks so harshly against it. Does anyone remember Sodom and Gomorrah? As an American, I don't think the majority of our country has accepted it. They are just intimidated by the loud, angry, rebellious, mean-spirited, power-hungry individuals who don't want anyone, including God, telling them how they should live their lives. I know God would forgive them and set them free if they repent. I believe Jesus died for their sin at the same time He died for mine. So, I should not judge one of God's servants. I might end up spending eternity with them!

Blessings!

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@Ruqaya101 Speaking from an Islamic perspective, there are several reasons to believe Islam recognizes that this tendency exists, but it is not an affliction nor a disease in itself. At the same time, acting upon this tendency may bring you different diseases, apart from being haram.

One hadith that says a lot on this is this one from al Kafi:

A number of our companions, from Ahmad Bin Abu Abdullah, from Muhammad Bin Saeed, from Zakariyya Bin Muhammad, from his father, from Amro, (It has been narrated) from Abu Ja’far asws having said: ‘Allah azwj has Sword upon Himself asws that he shall not sit upon the cushions of the Paradise, the one who allows others into his behind’. So I said to Abu Abdullah asws, ‘So and so intellectual, one of understanding, is inviting people unto himself. Allah azwj has Afflicted him’.

So he asws said: ‘Does he do that in the Masjid gathering?’ I said, ‘No’. He asws said: ‘So, does he do it upon the door of his house?’ I said, ‘No’. He asws said:’ So where does he do it?’ I said, ‘When he is alone’. He asws said: ‘So Allah azwj has not Afflicted him. This one is doing it for pleasure. He shall not sit upon the cushions of the Paradise’

Source: Al Kafi – V 5 – The Book of Marriage Ch 181 H 8

This hadith points out the controllable nature of this tendency, and why it shall not be called a disease or affliction by itself. Sexual desires are controllable, and if this hadith doesn't work for you, I tell you as a gay person.

NOW, I wise person shall also be able to understand the dimension of this condition. Struggle is real, slips are real, homophobia is real, self-esteem problems are real, psychological problems are real, and one shall not simplify the subject. Thus, if someone is fed up of this subject, it's better to stay silent instead of saying nonsense.

Edited by Bakir

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7 hours ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

I don’t get why these people make such claims stating that the Qur'an doesn’t go against homosexuality when it clearly talks about the story of Prophet Lut (عليه السلام) and how men were engaging in lustful actions towards eachother.

They are basing their statements (I suppose) in Scott Kugle's studies on the subject. However, his approach resembles that of a Quranist, and his interpretation may deviate reasonably enough without hadiths. Kugle doesn't talk nonsense, he just doesn't take hadiths into consideration and interprets the Quranic text in a specific way. Thus, his ideas may work for those who don't belong to any traditional school of thought that takes hadith and sunna into account.

By the way, I don't think this subject is as controversial as many may think. It just requires a lot of interdisciplinar study. I have dedicated long days and nights to study it in order to understand it the best way I can. It touches a lot of subjects such as sexuality, sexual desire, identity, non-normative/queer behaviour, biology, sociology, history, and so on. And even though scarce, there is a lot of material and answers one can get from Islamic and historical sources to understand Islam's view on queerness overall. The story of Prophet Lut is probably the worst*, in my opinion, source of knowledge on the topic, because it is not descriptive nor analytical. It mostly focuses on the sinful nature of the act. Yet it is still the most quoted. Muslims should be better equipped towards this topic instead of discussing whether it is biological or sociological. It changes nothing. It is important to make clear that you can have this tendency and still be a comitted Muslim.

 

* Not that the verses are not a good source of knowledge, but that they aren't focusin on the homosexual orientation. It is evident that Lut people were NOT homosexuals as we understand it today. Most had wives and children. This is not the condition of homosexuals. They practiced male to male sex, they preferred male to male sex over having sex with their own wives which is what is lawful for them. Having sex with women wasn't something disgusting for them, nor they lacked desire for them, they preferred men over women. This is exactly the verb that was used in the Qur'an. It is so evident that I'm always amazed why people ALWAYS equate the People of Lut to homosexuals. The difference is: People of Lut were not exclusively homosexuals yet indulged in homosexual sex, homosexuals are not necessarily active and indulging in homosexual sex. It's time we make a difference and take this into consideration, because not doing so is precisely simplifying the issue to the most absurd level.

Edited by Bakir

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1 hour ago, Bakir said:

They are basing their statements (I suppose) in Scott Kugle's studies on the subject. However, his approach resembles that of a Quranist, and his interpretation may deviate reasonably enough without hadiths. Kugle doesn't talk nonsense, he just doesn't take hadiths into consideration and interprets the Quranic text in a specific way. Thus, his ideas may work for those who don't belong to any traditional school of thought that takes hadith and sunna into account.

By the way, I don't think this subject is as controversial as many may think. It just requires a lot of interdisciplinar study. I have dedicated long days and nights to study it in order to understand it the best way I can. It touches a lot of subjects such as sexuality, sexual desire, identity, non-normative/queer behaviour, biology, sociology, history, and so on. And even though scarce, there is a lot of material and answers one can get from Islamic and historical sources to understand Islam's view on queerness overall. The story of Prophet Lut is probably the worst*, in my opinion, source of knowledge on the topic, because it is not descriptive nor analytical. It mostly focuses on the sinful nature of the act. Yet it is still the most quoted. Muslims should be better equipped towards this topic instead of discussing whether it is biological or sociological. It changes nothing. It is important to make clear that you can have this tendency and still be a comitted Muslim.

 

* Not that the verses are not a good source of knowledge, but that they aren't focusin on the homosexual orientation. It is evident that Lut people were NOT homosexuals as we understand it today. Most had wives and children. This is not the condition of homosexuals. They practiced male to male sex, they preferred male to male sex over having sex with their own wives which is what is lawful for them. Having sex with women wasn't something disgusting for them, nor they lacked desire for them, they preferred men over women. This is exactly the verb that was used in the Qur'an. It is so evident that I'm always amazed why people ALWAYS equate the People of Lut to homosexuals. The difference is: People of Lut were not exclusively homosexuals yet indulged in homosexual sex, homosexuals are not necessarily active and indulging in homosexual sex. It's time we make a difference and take this into consideration, because not doing so is precisely simplifying the issue to the most absurd level.

You have made some good points, but I disagree with what you said about the people of Prophet Lut(عليه السلام).  A homosexual is a person who is sexually attracted to the opposite sex, whether they had wives or children, they still preferred to have sex with men instead of women which proves their homosexuality. People can't just bring up the excuse that they weren't homosexuals just because they were married, but still had the desire in homosexual sex, it doesn't make a difference as to whether they're active or not; if one is sexually attracted to the opposite sex it makes them a homosexual

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9 hours ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

You have made some good points, but I disagree with what you said about the people of Prophet Lut(عليه السلام).  A homosexual is a person who is sexually attracted to the opposite sex, whether they had wives or children, they still preferred to have sex with men instead of women which proves their homosexuality. People can't just bring up the excuse that they weren't homosexuals just because they were married, but still had the desire in homosexual sex, it doesn't make a difference as to whether they're active or not; if one is sexually attracted to the opposite sex it makes them a homosexual

Definitely not, maryam. If they were homosexual, the story would be significantly different. If you remember well, it was Shaytan who started to seduce them in order to spread this practice. It was purely a social phenomenom. It was a discovery for them that they could derive pleasure from men instead of women. It was not a tendency inherent to them. If required, we can post here the narrations that explain the verses of the story of Prophet Lut in more detail. It's important to understand and analyse things as they happened.

Any person could easily notice that this story is commonly used to describe a practice and sin, and to put an example of its judgement. It is not describing a tendency as complex as homosexuality, nor touching the issue of queerness, nor judging individuals. Otherwise, being gay would be banned in Islam.

Edited by Bakir

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31 minutes ago, Zain el-Abidine said:

The act of sodomy is a digusting and disgraceful one. There is a reason why people will say to the one who has been sodomized "you have lost your manhood." This is what homosexuality is all about it is wrong and Allah has prohibited it.

I don't deny this is the view in Islam, but people would ask why did Allah create people with a desire they have no halal way to fulfil ? Why did he create men with a desire to have sex with other men, yet at the same time make it punishable severely ? I would guess most Muslim scholars throughout history barring a few here and there would probably have argued God would not have done such a thing. Yet now some consider it natural and a 'test'. It's a new wave of thought. 

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On 4/19/2019 at 10:18 AM, Ruqaya101 said:

I came across this video and it sparked my interest and attention.

Is there something truly considered “scientific and uncontrollable sexual orientation”? Where’s the proof? 

What are your thoughts on this in general?

Homosexuality ought to be deconstructed:

What does it mean to be “gay”?  Does it specifically mean to enjoy having “sexual relations” with the same sex?   Many men, if not around the opposite sex for a prolonged period of time (like in a prison facility) will eventually start to have “gay” tendencies, and may even eventually act upon those tendencies.  Are those men who develops  same sex tendencies gay (or is it simply a natural phenomenon that develops when there is a supression of some sort?).  In the case of those who have same sex tendencies, where and how have they developed it?  Whatever the cause is (whether genetic, psychological, or environmental), these become none other than tendencies.   Some people have a tendency to drinking alcohol because that tendency is genetically passed down.  This is not to say they will become alcoholics but they have those tendencies.  Some have it because of their environment (society allows it).  

Would one be considered gay for loving the same sex (without sexual relation?)? Of course not.  Muslim brothers can love (In a no sexual way) each other.

So, being gay turns out to be nothing more than a tendency, and like any other tendency, it can be either benign or harmful depending on what one does with it.  It is just like any other tendency.  

So why is there a big deal / problem about homosexuality? It is just as big of a deal /problem as “being heterosexual”.  Let me explain.  The problem is not in the tendency itself (for this is part of being an animal/ or our tabiah) but in “identifying” oneself as this or that.  The problem is that of identity.  When you identify yourself as something you limit yourself and enslave yourself to that concept, idea or thing.  

:)

 

 

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15 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

The problem is that of identity.  When you identify yourself as something you limit yourself and enslave yourself to that concept, idea or thing.  

The issue of identity is political, mostly.

Building this identity reinforces the LGBT community, and its pressure on certain behaviours in society. Most see the negative effects, which I can understand. However, I prefer all the negative effects over living in fear for having certain feelings or certain effeminacy or whatever. In many countries we are killed without any reason except homophobia.

Thus, if identifying as gay reinforces that political and social pressure over homophobes, so be it.

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37 minutes ago, Bakir said:

The issue of identity is political, mostly.

Building this identity reinforces the LGBT community, and its pressure on certain behaviours in society. Most see the negative effects, which I can understand. However, I prefer all the negative effects over living in fear for having certain feelings or certain effeminacy or whatever. In many countries we are killed without any reason except homophobia.

Thus, if identifying as gay reinforces that political and social pressure over homophobes, so be it.

So long as there is an awareness or acknowledgement of the negative effects of such identifications and therefore limitations then this is all that is required (and this is, frankly, all that can possibly be done!).  So, if one sees himself being targeted for “simply being who he/she cannot not be”, and if a means of defense (in the modern context/ modern world) is in none other than a social movement, then, like you said, “so be it”.   :)  

I would like to emphasize that the “mere awareness” of of one’s identification with a certain tendency is already a step in de-identification.  

 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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19 hours ago, Bakir said:

Otherwise, being gay would be banned in Islam.

I agree with you because the verses of the Qur'an say that those people preferred men over women.

Prophet Lut (عليه السلام) said it in a way as if their bodily need wasn't natural. It seems to me that these verses describe people who were experimenting shamelessly.

It also says "And leave what your Lord has created for you of your wives?"

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