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7ssein

Ibn Taymiyyah Admits a Lot of Sahaba Cursed and Hated Ali

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Not sure if this has been shared before, but Ibn Taymiyyah himself stated a lot of Sahaba hated and cursed Ali (as):

"And it is known that Allah made love for the Sahaba in the Muslims, especially for the Khulafa', may Allah be pleased with them, especially for Abu Bakr and Omar, for the general Sahaba and followers love them, and they were the best of centuries.

But it was not like this for Ali, for a lot of the Sahaba and followers hated him and cursed him and fought him." (Rough translation)

From Ibn Taymiyyah's "Minhaj Al Sunna Fi Naqdh Kalam Al Shia", volume 7, page 137-138.

منهاج السنة في نقض كلام الشيعة، ابن تيميه، مجلد ٧، ص ١٣٧-١٣٨

SAVE-20190413-132052.jpg

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On 4/13/2019 at 1:22 PM, 7ssein said:

Not sure if this has been shared before, but Ibn Taymiyyah himself stated a lot of Sahaba hated and cursed Ali (as):

"And it is known that Allah made love for the Sahaba in the Muslims, especially for the Khulafa', may Allah be pleased with them, especially for Abu Bakr and Omar, for the general Sahaba and followers love them, and they were the best of centuries.

But it was not like this for Ali, for a lot of the Sahaba and followers hated him and cursed him and fought him." (Rough translation)

From Ibn Taymiyyah's "Minhaj Al Sunna Fi Naqdh Kalam Al Shia", volume 7, page 137-138.

منهاج السنة في نقض كلام الشيعة، ابن تيميه، مجلد ٧، ص ١٣٧-١٣٨

SAVE-20190413-132052.jpg

Does the rest of it basically say that those who love Ali and hate Abu Bakr and Umar are worst than those who hate Ali but love Abu Bakr and Umar?

Can you please explain what the last lines of the bottom read (what is Muruwaniyyah)?.

 

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30 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

 

Yeah, basically it says that the Shia who hate and insult Abu Bakr and Omar are worse that those who hate Ali, and that the Shia of Uthman, who hated Ali, are better than the Shia of Ali, who hated Uthman. Apparently, in his words, the Shia of Ali are less than the Shia of Uthman them in Deen and knowledge, and more than them in oppression and jahl. Ibn Taymiyyah was really screwed up basically.

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I can't read the Arabic but something I do know for certain about the book is that it was a refutation of the works of a Shia sholar. At times I have found Shia trying to deceive gullable lay Shia/Sunnis by quoting the book, but when I have watched refutation videos quoting more pages of the book, Ibn Taymiyyah has either been quoting the Shi'I scholar's book or otherwise highlighting what Shia in general say, or he makes a counter argument by saying essentially 'if you say X about the Sahabah, then by that logic, you have to say Y about Ali in order to be consistent in your logic'.

Food for thought and InshaAllah I hope to be fluent in Fus7a one day and to be able to buy and read this great book.

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41 minutes ago, 7ssein said:

Yeah, basically it says that the Shia who hate and insult Abu Bakr and Omar are worse that those who hate Ali, and that the Shia of Uthman, who hated Ali, are better than the Shia of Ali, who hated Uthman. Apparently, in his words, the Shia of Ali are less than the Shia of Uthman them in Deen and knowledge, and more than them in oppression and jahl. Ibn Taymiyyah was really screwed up basically.

I don't that way of Ibn Taymiyyah (رضي الله عنه).

He was a pretty good scholar and makes some pretty good arguments.

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7 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

I don't that way of Ibn Taymiyyah (رضي الله عنه).

He was a pretty good scholar and makes some pretty good arguments.

He wasn’t a scholar in the first place but a deviant person that lied throughout his entire life and changed the orthodoxy of Islam. That’s why he spend almost entire life in prison because endless Sunni ulama ruled his views deviant and dangerous. 

11 minutes ago, Ar.alhindi said:

I can't read the Arabic but something I do know for certain about the book is that it was a refutation of the works of a Shia sholar. At times I have found Shia trying to deceive gullable lay Shia/Sunnis by quoting the book, but when I have watched refutation videos quoting more pages of the book, Ibn Taymiyyah has either been quoting the Shi'I scholar's book or otherwise highlighting what Shia in general say, or he makes a counter argument by saying essentially 'if you say X about the Sahabah, then by that logic, you have to say Y about Ali in order to be consistent in your logic'.

Food for thought and InshaAllah I hope to be fluent in Fus7a one day and to be able to buy and read this great book.

You are a revert, you don’t know Arabic, yet you are very active on this forum “refuting” orthodox Islam and its teachings :grin:. I will help you, Ibn Taymiyyah allegedly wrote a book called Minhaj as-Sunnah an-Nabawiyyah, in response to the book Minhaj al-karama fi ma'rifat al-imama, by the orthodox Muslim theologian Allamah Al-Hilli (may Allah bless him). In turn, Ibn Taymiyya’s alleged work was refuted few times by our scholars and even the students of Islamic seminaries, such as a revert from Sunnism to Shia Islam, brother Toyib Olawuyi (may Allah bless him) in his work Ali: The Best of the Sahabah.

***

As for the fact that the Sunni favoured Sahaba cursed Imam Ali (عليه السلام), it is nothing new. The traces of it can be found already in the unauthentic six, but there are more clear ones elsewhere. Just to mention Musnad ibn Hanbal (Volume 6 page 228 Tradition 25956where he mentions, for example, that A’isha had so much hate for Imam Ali (عليه السلام), that she couldn’t even mention his name. Shaykh Shoib al-Arnaut stated on the margin: “The chain is Sahih according to the standards of the two Sheiks; Bukhari & Muslim”. Muawiyah was well known for his hatred towards Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

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1 hour ago, Ar.alhindi said:

I can't read the Arabic but something I do know for certain about the book is that it was a refutation of the works of a Shia sholar. At times I have found Shia trying to deceive gullable lay Shia/Sunnis by quoting the book, but when I have watched refutation videos quoting more pages of the book, Ibn Taymiyyah has either been quoting the Shi'I scholar's book or otherwise highlighting what Shia in general say, or he makes a counter argument by saying essentially 'if you say X about the Sahabah, then by that logic, you have to say Y about Ali in order to be consistent in your logic'.

Food for thought and InshaAllah I hope to be fluent in Fus7a one day and to be able to buy and read this great book.

When Ibn Taymiyyah quotes us he writes اذا قيل or قوله or قال الرافضي

This was part of his reply to how us Shia say the love of Ali (عليه السلام). is in the hearts of all Mu'mins. Page 135-136 of the same book he quotes us saying this, you can check, but I guess it's useless since you don't know Arabic. Yes, it is a book attempting to refute the Shia, but this is a quote describing his beliefs.

As for this being a "great book," he attempts, for the most part, to refute Shiism using Sunni ahadith, which doesn't work very well.

1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

I don't that way of Ibn Taymiyyah (رضي الله عنه).

He was a pretty good scholar and makes some pretty good arguments.

A "good scholar" with a hatred of Imam Ali, and very bias and weak arguments. Watch Seyyed Kamal Al Haydari's series called Ummayad Islam if you can understand Arabic, and you'll see how many lies and hatred is packed into this book, uncovered by one scholar, so he probably missed a lot.

For an example about his biases, in one of his books he tries to claim that Imam Ali wasn't the first one to become Muslim, by saying he wasn't baligh, so it didn't count, even though it happened historically before.

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1 hour ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

You are a revert, you don’t know Arabic, yet you are very active on this forum “refuting” orthodox Islam and its teachings :grin:.

How do you know he's a Revert ?

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I don't that way of Ibn Taymiyyah (رضي الله عنه).

He was a pretty good scholar and makes some pretty good arguments.

Rather unfortunate that this man who belittled Imam Ali (عليه السلام) just so he can get one over the Shia's is considered a "pretty good scholar" in your opinion. If this was about done to Abubakr I dare say the Sunni view about this man would have been quite different. But because it is Ali...

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1 hour ago, Akbar673 said:

How do you know he's a Revert ?

He admitted it himself here. The problem is not the fact that one is a revert, Alhamduillah for that, the problem is that these kind of people don’t know Arabic, yet with the help of YouTube and some Wahhabi run forums, they become Google muftis trying to “refute” our entire aqida, taking online even on the marājiʿ that speak multiple languages and study their entire life. I sincerely believe that in order for any discussion to be serious and on some level, there must be some basic scholarly criteria followed. Nowadays people like Ali Dawah, Mohammed Hijab and their likes became some sort of “experts” on Islam without stepping in the Islamic seminary even for a day, it only proves the further mental deficiencies of the people that follow them unconditionally and their deviant lies. I’ll never forget how once in the West I approached a group of Wahhabis and the revert tried to convince me that I’m not a Muslim, once I told him to list me the five pillars of Islam, he couldn’t even do that, not to mention speaking Arabic. Those are the types that not only waste our and their lifes, many of them become terrorists killing “disbelievers”. Therefore, people as such should be put on the spot because weak minds may fall into their traps. 

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1 hour ago, pyaro said:

Rather unfortunate that this man who belittled Imam Ali (عليه السلام) just so he can get one over the Shia's is considered a "pretty good scholar" in your opinion. If this was about done to Abubakr I dare say the Sunni view about this man would have been quite different. But because it is Ali...

I found this quote from the man in your profile picture :grin:

3 minutes ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

He admitted it himself here. The problem is not the fact that one is a revert, Alhamduillah for that, the problem is that these kind of people don’t know Arabic, yet with the help of YouTube and some Wahhabi run forums, they become Google muftis trying to “refute” our entire aqida, taking online even on the marājiʿ that speak multiple languages and study their entire life. I sincerely believe that in order for any discussion to be serious and on some level, there must be some basic scholarly criteria followed. Nowadays people like Ali Dawah, Mohammed Hijab and their likes became some sort of “experts” on Islam without stepping in the Islamic seminary even for a day, it only proves the further mental deficiencies of the people that follow them unconditionally and their deviant lies. I’ll never forget how once in the West I approached a group of Wahhabis and the revert tried to convince me that I’m not a Muslim, once I told him to list me the five pillars of Islam, he couldn’t even do that, not to mention speaking Arabic. Those are the types that not only waste our and their lifes, many of them become terrorists killing “disbelievers”. Therefore, people as such should be put on the spot because weak minds may fall into their traps. 

Exactly, he says it is a great book, but hasn't even tried to read the stuff in it. At least read this "great" book, then judge on whether it's good or not, because I read a bit of it (only a couple 10s of pages and found it to be worthless. Barely ever refers to Shia ahadith, and tries to disprove Shiism using Sunni ahadith, which is completely pointless.

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23 minutes ago, 7ssein said:

Exactly, he says it is a great book, but hasn't even tried to read the stuff in it. At least read this "great" book, then judge on whether it's good or not, because I read a bit of it (only a couple 10s of pages and found it to be worthless. Barely ever refers to Shia ahadith, and tries to disprove Shiism using Sunni ahadith, which is completely pointless.

They do it non-stop. They take some of our belief and then find their own hadith to “disprove” us :rolleyes: or they cherrypick from our ahadith books (for example, al-Kafi, Bihar al-Anwar) without ever mentioning to their audience that Shia Muslims, unlike Sunnis, do not consider all of the ahadith to be authentic and on the same page one hadith can be weak or have broken chains of narrators whilst the one directly after it may be authentic with unbroken chain of narrators. They only apply “rigorous standards” of judging ahadith when it suits them and their ideology. It’s an interesting subject in itself worth discussing in separate topic. 

Edited by OrthodoxTruth

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14 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

He admitted it himself here.

Interesting.

14 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

The problem is not the fact that one is a revert, Alhamduillah for that

I agree, some of the finest Shi'a I've met are Reverts. Personally, I don't like using the term Revert. Its a label that makes someone out to be something other than what they are. I simply see a Shi'a (regardless of when they became one) as simply my Brother or Sister in Faith. 

14 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

the problem is that these kind of people don’t know Arabic, yet with the help of YouTube and some Wahhabi run forums, they become Google muftis trying to “refute” our entire aqida, taking online even on the marājiʿ that speak multiple languages and study their entire life.

"A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing"

14 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

I sincerely believe that in order for any discussion to be serious and on some level, there must be some basic scholarly criteria followed. Nowadays people like Ali Dawah, Mohammed Hijab and their likes became some sort of “experts” on Islam without stepping in the Islamic seminary even for a day, it only proves the further mental deficiencies of the people that follow them unconditionally and their deviant lies.

Valid point. I agree with you on this. The same logic applies to any discipline. It reminds me of how random people claim they know everything about the Law. They feel that just because they have heard something from someone or Googled it that they are now Attorneys who can practice Law. Like I said "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing".

14 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

I’ll never forget how once in the West I approached a group of Wahhabis and the revert tried to convince me that I’m not a Muslim, once I told him to list me the five pillars of Islam, he couldn’t even do that, not to mention speaking Arabic.

If you were to go speak to anyone in Daesh you would get the same response. I remember reading an article by an American Journalist who was a prisoner in a Daesh camp. He clearly stated that none of them could recite a single verse of the Qur'an, leave alone offer the meaning behind it. Its precisely that sort of people that Evilminded people target because they can be easily manipluated. For people with that malicious intent, Ignorance is bliss. The ignorance of others, that is.

14 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

Those are the types that not only waste our and their lifes, many of them become terrorists killing “disbelievers”. Therefore, people as such should be put on the spot because weak minds may fall into their traps. 

Knowledge is Power.

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I apologies if my question is of topic, but I thought it relates to this tread. I wonder, would it in some way make sense for a person who is Shia or someone who goes to a Shia mosque to follow and frequently quote someone like Ibn Taymiyyah? Or am I just being to sectarian in assuming that such a person is a wahabi/salafi/takfiri?

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