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In the Name of God بسم الله
Abu Hadi

Reparations for Slavery

Reza

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10 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

I respectfully disagree. I think brother @Panzerwaffe makes some good points. Although I don't live in the US, I see it as a free society where each community can thrive if they choose to do so. It is up to poor communities to aggressively stamp out drugs and criminality from their neighborhoods. 

Wallahu a'lam 

Communities need financial capital (along with human capital, spiritual capital, etc) to function. A big source of financial capital is through accumulated inheritance, which grows into more wealth over generations. In other words, it takes money to make money. Typically this requires ancestors who jump start the process. If your ancestors were slaves, you can see how this can’t happen too readily. Explains why rich countries stay rich and poor countries stay poor over time, unless a significant investment, new source of wealth, war, or pillage takes place.

You’re giving cliche slogans but have to realize the practical facts on the ground.

43 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

However it is also true that today and for several generations now, every child is born free and is provided with free education.

With a huge asterisk.

43 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Slavery is not relevant today and hasn't been for several decades.

On this website, we talk about events 1400 years ago as being relevant today, but events 200 years ago don’t? And millions of descendants alive today?

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On 5/14/2019 at 7:25 AM, Panzerwaffe said:

And there are tons of examples of blacks taking advantage of affirmative action and despite the prejudice and odds ,lifting themselves out of poverty and doing very well for themselves.

Forcing rest of the population to pay reparations to blacks or American "natives" for wrongs > 150 yrs ago is a sure shot way of increasing animosity and alienation.This will just divide the nation even more.

Just imagine if 2 friends both dirt poor kids get into college the black one has no college loans after 3 yrs and white one has 100k in debt,  yeah that white kid will definitely be a little bit ticked off ...can u blame him / her ?

I tried to avoid this thread topic like the plague and I am African American. I agree with notme that no amount of money could repay the debt of lost lives, lost family, lost identity, and lost status as human. Allah will judge those who were Unjust such as the Slave owners and traders. Allah will also judge those with racist supremacist actions and systems that oppressed and suppressed other races. Allah will judge all those were racist to other races. 

The Arabs , Africans, and colonial whites who had a evil hand in slavery will stand before Allah. The white Slave traders who stacked blacks on top of each other on ships across the Atlantic by force will stand before Allah. The White Slave owners who hung, maimed, beat, raped blacks during slavery and after slavery will also stand before Allah. The white racist supremacist who burned down black peoples homes and hung black people after slavery will also stand before Allah. The white racist supremacist who didn’t want black people with basic rights will stand before Allah. 

The white racist supremacist who didn’t want black people in their stores, schools, hospitals, neighborhoods, restaurants, and most public facilities will also stand before Allah. The white racist supremacist who saw black people as not human but animals will stand before Allah. 

don’t worry about generations of black families destroyed systematically or the generational wealth gap due to systematic oppression. America was built off the backs of black people literally and they had the lashes from the whips on their backs to prove it. 

The African American stayed loyal however and it was a black man who was the first to die fighting in the American revolution in freedom from the British. The contributions that African Americans made to the country always went over looked because they were seen as not human or lesser than human. Many inventions and freedoms that a lot of foreigners get to enjoy in America come from blacks struggle. That’s why it’s so sad when Muslims come from other countries and look down upon black Americans to try and fit in with the “upper class”. But hey guess what they will have to stand before Allah as well. 

Pamzerwaffe how deep do you want me to go with this. There has been documented racial discrimination against blacks for generations in universities, jobs, loans, etc. The blacks in America racially profiled by cops and targeted and charged for petty stuff that most whites can get off with. And let’s not talk about  the prison system which is also privatized and capitalizes off Black men going to jail in a endless cycle. Are you Muslim? Are you even American? You can’t be this clueless when it comes to racial issues here in the states. 

I personally don’t care about a check for reparations. Insha’Allah I would like my reparations to be on yauma Qiyamah and want to be able to see all those guilty for oppression and racism  judged by Allah. :birthday: :party:

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum.

Like you brother @AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola  I believe true justice will be served in Youm al qiyamma and no reparations to our black brothers and sisters will pay back for what they have been through.

Some of the responses I've read is disturbing.  I don't know if it is deep rooted racism, only they and Allah knows what is in their hearts, or ignorance not knowing the historical context of what happened.  I try my best to educate myself of the slavery period of the US, and to deny the vile and oppressive treatment that the African people experienced for over a hundred years is reprehensible.  

It brings comfort to me, knowing the hadith that if one has a mustard seed of 3sabiyaa in their hearts, they will not enter heaven.  Allah is Most Just, Heaven is not for racists or bigots!  If Muslims do not make istigfar for this sin, and also acting on this sin by hurting people based on their color, then they are in for a real surprise in the akheera!

Rasoul Allah told us there is no difference between black and white and the measuring stick of who is better is based on taqwa.  Insh'Allah in this holy month, God increases taqwa in our hearts.

Brother AbdulKarim you have embraced Islam, Rasoul Allah had Bilal and Imam Hussain had Jon. Rasoul Allah and Imam Hussain didn't care for outer appearance as much as they cared for the purity of heart.  After Hajj Malcom went to Hajj, he also broke free from the NOI and removed the remaining seeds of hatred from his heart and came back from Hajj purified from all his sins and then he died a shaheed.  No many people reach this stage, Sub7an'Allah.   Sayyid Ali Khamanei even began the conference with reciting fatiha on his soul, what an honor, after all these years he is remembered and he paid the ultimate price for speaking the truth and took a stand for his principles.  God bless his soul.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) remove hatred, 3asibiya, and all types of vices from our hearts and bring us closer to Him.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

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On 5/14/2019 at 5:51 PM, Laayla said:

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum.

Like you brother @AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola  I believe true justice will be served in Youm al qiyamma and no reparations to our black brothers and sisters will pay back for what they have been through.

Some of the responses I've read is disturbing.  I don't know if it is deep rooted racism, only they and Allah knows what is in their hearts, or ignorance not knowing the historical context of what happened.  I try my best to educate myself of the slavery period of the US, and to deny the vile and oppressive treatment that the African people experienced for over a hundred years is reprehensible.  

It brings comfort to me, knowing the hadith that if one has a mustard seed of 3sabiyaa in their hearts, they will not enter heaven.  Allah is Most Just, Heaven is not for racists or bigots!  If Muslims do not make istigfar for this sin, and also acting on this sin by hurting people based on their color, then they are in for a real surprise in the akheera!

Rasoul Allah told us there is no difference between black and white and the measuring stick of who is better is based on taqwa.  Insh'Allah in this holy month, God increases taqwa in our hearts.

Brother AbdulKarim you have embraced Islam, Rasoul Allah had Bilal and Imam Hussain had Jon. Rasoul Allah and Imam Hussain didn't care for outer appearance as much as they cared for the purity of heart.  After Hajj Malcom went to Hajj, he also broke free from the NOI and removed the remaining seeds of hatred from his heart and came back from Hajj purified from all his sins and then he died a shaheed.  No many people reach this stage, Sub7an'Allah.   Sayyid Ali Khamanei even began the conference with reciting fatiha on his soul, what an honor, after all these years he is remembered and he paid the ultimate price for speaking the truth and took a stand for his principles.  God bless his soul.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) remove hatred, 3asibiya, and all types of vices from our hearts and bring us closer to Him.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

Alhamdulilah, 

The oppression of blacks in the United States is is more than 100 years. It’s 400 and still going. Even though slavery ended and slaves were granted freedom you still have institutional system of oppression that favored whites more for generations even up to now. Not too mention how black neighborhoods were targeted with drugs.  Elements of this system still exist. Africans have made progression but it runs so deep. The African American family core has been psychologically damaged over time. 

Despite this however great African American minds have made the United States what it is today. Did you know the first open heart surgery in America was done by an African American? The intellectual value and contributions to sciences, technology, and social progress by blacks was also stolen and credited to whites instead and not credited to African Americans. Go search all the wonderful inventions and sciences that came from blacks in America. Search the crucial parts they played in the revolution and civil wars. Search the parts the played fighting Nazi Germany. African Americans have made America a more likable country in world due to urban musical and culture that has spread across the world. Kids around the world want to dress and be hip like African Americans. I been around the world so I have seen this first hand. 

Despite the oppression African American were the main converts to Islam in America over the generations mainly because a lot of slaves themselves were Muslim when they were forced to American shores.  So its sad to see Muslims come from Muslims countries and open stores in underprivileged black neighborhoods selling pork and alcohol and treating them the same as  racist whites. Also the shame of seeing Muslims open up masjids that are mainly cultural centers meant for isolated foreigners to feel comfortable. 

But that’s just in America, there are still effects of colonialism and imperialism being felt all around the world today and many suffering at the hands of oppression by tyrannical rulers and systems. 

May Allah have mercy on the believing men and women around the world. Syria, Yemen , China, Palestine, Africa, etc.  

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On 5/14/2019 at 4:27 PM, Reza said:

Communities need financial capital (along with human capital, spiritual capital, etc) to function. A big source of financial capital is through accumulated inheritance, which grows into more wealth over generations. In other words, it takes money to make money. Typically this requires ancestors who jump start the process. If your ancestors were slaves, you can see how this can’t happen too readily. Explains why rich countries stay rich and poor countries stay poor over time, unless a significant investment, new source of wealth, war, or pillage takes place.

On this website, we talk about events 1400 years ago as being relevant today, but events 200 years ago don’t? And millions of descendants alive today?

1. There are several communities that immigrated to the US due to poverty, war, persecution or simply for economic growth. They didn't bring wealth with them and pretty much had to start from scratch. I would therefore argue that as of today (and the past 50 odd years) the opportunities are available for those who are willing to grab them. 

2. Whether something occured 1400 years or 200 years ago is not in itself an indicator of it's relevance today. World War II is more recent and yet European countries have all opened their borders and markets to each other. 

Who exactly can make a claim for reperations today due to slavery? 

The big killer of poor societies in the US today, both black and white, is actually narcotics. It has destroyed people economically and socially. The entire family structure has broken down and various social ills have resulted from it due to a knock on effect. 

This is why I believe that we have misdiagnosed the root cause when we point towards slavery as the cause of poverty today.

Wallahu a'lam 

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50 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

1. There are several communities that immigrated to the US due to poverty, war, persecution or simply for economic growth. They didn't bring wealth with them and pretty much had to start from scratch. I would therefore argue that as of today (and the past 50 odd years) the opportunities are available for those who are willing to grab them. 

2. Whether something occured 1400 years or 200 years ago is not in itself an indicator of it's relevance today. World War II is more recent and yet European countries have all opened their borders and markets to each other. 

Who exactly can make a claim for reperations today due to slavery? 

The big killer of poor societies in the US today, both black and white, is actually narcotics. It has destroyed people economically and socially. The entire family structure has broken down and various social ills have resulted from it due to a knock on effect. 

This is why I believe that we have misdiagnosed the root cause when we point towards slavery as the cause of poverty today.

Wallahu a'lam 

Alhamdulilah, 

Brother did I misread that you mentioned that you were not from the states and didn’t live in America? How could you have any strong knowledge and opinions about what has taken place inside. Those immigrants who migrated in did so by choice and the immigrants who had lighter skin didn’t face the same racial discrimination just do to skin color alone. Did you not hear me mention that psychological damage has been done over 400 years. 

Im glad you mentioned WW2 because there are countries still receiving reparations for WW2. You go search which countries. Not too mention the elephant in the room, Israel. What? Should we not mention how Israel still pretty much receives reparations by the billions from the United States and the funny part about it is that they are not even the real Hebrews. They are Khazars/Ashkenazi converted  European Hebrews transplanted over time to Israel and especially after WW2 by the British. They have 22 percent Semitic blood. 

But anyway back to your response. Every race can receive reparations but when it comes to blacks they need work more and stop complaining? Sir, you need stop and log off you computer and go reflect. I ask that Allah gives you more Hikma in this matter. 

If you are not white or black from the US you are on the outside looking in. It’s like me talking about why things are wrong in Iraq or Iran. I would be an outsider to their problems and why their problems exist. Can one of the moderators end this thread because  it will only get worse as people try to talk on something they don’t understand. There is more constructive things we can be doing and talking about regarding Islam. 

Edited by AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola

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19 minutes ago, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

Can one of the moderators end this thread because  it will only get worse as people try to talk on something they don’t understand.

Brother, we are already watching this discussion closely. Thanks for your insight - it really adds a lot to the conversation. I appreciate your calm rationality while explaining a topic that is close to your heart to those who do not understand. 

But the initial question was about the Islamic guidance on reparations to descendants of slaves, and that question remains unanswered. Maybe there is no answer. 

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14 hours ago, notme said:

Brother, we are already watching this discussion closely. Thanks for your insight - it really adds a lot to the conversation. I appreciate your calm rationality while explaining a topic that is close to your heart to those who do not understand. 

But the initial question was about the Islamic guidance on reparations to descendants of slaves, and that question remains unanswered. Maybe there is no answer. 

Alhamdulilah, 

Thank you Notme, it’s not you. It’s definitely me. Im just going to dust my black self off and head over to the “what food are craving for Ramadhan thread”.  Everybody let’s make sure we continue to give Israel reparations to their descendants from WW2. That’s all that really matters in this world. 

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On 4/12/2019 at 6:00 PM, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

The Africans need to pay reparations as well. They share part of the sin for selling humans to the colonisers. 

I have thought of that before.  These people were forcibly kidnapped and sold to traders and not just for the American slave market.  Seems more than obvious but is usually not addressed.  Why do some idolize their African roots when they were so seriously betrayed by their kinsmen?

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On 5/15/2019 at 5:28 AM, Mahdavist said:

1. There are several communities that immigrated to the US due to poverty, war, persecution or simply for economic growth. They didn't bring wealth with them and pretty much had to start from scratch. I would therefore argue that as of today (and the past 50 odd years) the opportunities are available for those who are willing to grab them. 

2. Whether something occured 1400 years or 200 years ago is not in itself an indicator of it's relevance today. World War II is more recent and yet European countries have all opened their borders and markets to each other. 

Who exactly can make a claim for reperations today due to slavery? 

The big killer of poor societies in the US today, both black and white, is actually narcotics. It has destroyed people economically and socially. The entire family structure has broken down and various social ills have resulted from it due to a knock on effect. 

This is why I believe that we have misdiagnosed the root cause when we point towards slavery as the cause of poverty today.

Wallahu a'lam 

This os not a good analogy. Like others have said, these immigrants started from zero. The slaves that were freed after the civil war started from way below zero due to the racial discrimination and predjudice that was popular at the time and is still popular today in many places in the country. This acted as an extra impediment on top of all the other impediments that you mentioned with reference to recwnt immigrants. 

You could say, for example that immigrants who are visibly Muslim, like women who wear are also discriminated against in the same way. That is true, but most of them do not have psychological trauma of knowing their ancestors were kidnapped and forced to come to this country and treated as property by the legal system once they got here. Also most Muslims (but not all) who come tp the US are from wealthy or upper middle class backgrounds in their own country so they have access to resources in their family network.

So imagine the condition of someone who has no family network or resources to fall back on, is discriminated against, and suffering the psychological trauma of slavery. Then you will start to get the picture. 

I am not saying it is impossble to rise above this, it is possible and many do but lets not pretend that we are all competing on a level playing field. 

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2 hours ago, forte said:

I have thought of that before.  These people were forcibly kidnapped and sold to traders and not just for the American slave market.  Seems more than obvious but is usually not addressed.  Why do some idolize their African roots when they were so seriously betrayed by their kinsmen?

Alhamdulilah, 

I’m actually not opposed to Africans countries sharing in accountability of righting wrongs for roles that they might have played in help selling slaves. The one big point however is how the slaves were treated once they were forced on those ships and how they were treated on those ships and how they were treated when the arrived on American shores for generations to come. 

People talk about Israel losing 6 million people  in WW2 1945. There is an estimated 60 million African slaves who died in Slave trade. And this is supposedly soft estimate. Some figure it to even be up to 150 million over all. These numbers also include reaching the new world. None of these numbers are including the racist oppression faced after slavery when slaves didn’t have education and property to even pick themselves up while still be identified as not human or half human. Generations and generations of oppression for 400 years. 

But somehow Israel is still receiving reparations from the United States and the world from 1945? And you think the African nations should be responsible only? Smh Hell we not even talking about the role that Arab nations played in slavery? Late President Kadhafi at least apologized on his behalf and tried to get the other Arab nations to apologize for their roles and they all declined! Smh 

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Slavery in Africa was not like the industrialized slavery of the Western hemisphere. A slave in Africa could earn his freedom. His children were born free. He generally lived in his master's home and ate from his master's food. 

So yes, African shave traders were complicit in the enslavement of thousands of their kinsmen, but I wonder if they knew what life they were selling their brothers and sisters into. 

Plus, after colonization, much of the resources of Africa were stripped and carried to Europe. They may owe reparations, but it is futile to ask what they are unable to pay.

Saying "they are guilty too" is a way of denying, evading, minimizing our national guilt. I've never enslaved a person and as far as my genealogical research shows, neither have any of my ancestors, but as a white American, undoubtedly I have benefited from the stolen fruits of slavery. 

Reparations are a symbolic gesture. Some things can't be fixed. But as long as we do nothing, we have not acknowledged the harm we have done; we can't begin to make things better. 

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On 5/14/2019 at 11:13 PM, AbdulKarim313_Austin/Nola said:

I personally don’t care about a check for reparations. Insha’Allah I would like my reparations to be on yauma Qiyamah and want to be able to see all those guilty for oppression and racism  judged by Allah. :birthday: :party:

May Allah grant you that.

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The US was built on genocide and slavery. Gave in to its worse impulses for a heck of a long time.  It will take along time to heal the damage because a lot of it is still systemic. But a start has been made, In my humble opinion. I'd listen to the communities affected as to what they need.

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